Sandy, you really should ask malcolm manners about it. I would suspect though that in zone 9 Florida afternoon sun will be enough if the rose would not be in deep shade in the morning hours.
Mine is in southern exposure, grafted on multiflora and it is already huge. Great rose: always in bloom, fragrant and does not blackspot. However, thrips love it and it is not resistant to botrytis.

I am interested in how far north Marechal can be sucessfully grown without significant protection but perhaps with special microclimates - ex. I grew Mermaid here in the Washington area in a protected SW alcove of our house for several years. And they attempted to grow it at the National Arboretum in DC - don't know that outcome. I also saw a note somewhere that mentioned that a Louisville KY nursery once produced a lot of Marechal for that part of the country in the late 1800s. Hopefully, more of us could enjoy the glories of this rose more widely. Perhaps it is not only a zone 8 or 9 rose.

Hmmmm......I have a lot of trouble with thrips in my area, and I refuse to get into a constant spray routine anymore. I also need to have roses that can get by without any human care in the summer for 2 or 3 months because I don't enjoy gardening in the height of our heat. Love it down here for gardening the rest of the year. I may also want to travel up north for those couple of months. Miss my grandkids.

Makes me feel pretty discouraged right now about Marechal Niel.

Sandy

Here is what Malcolm Manners had to say about this Noisette rose at the "Please wax poetically over Maréchal Niel" thread.

"We grow the "clone" (I hate that word, since the entire variety is a clone; maybe we should say "selection") of MN that was found by Greg Grant, in Texas, years ago -- a very vigorous one that tests free of virus disease. We graft it to 'Fortuniana' roots. That combination makes the most vigorous rose we've ever grown -- easily 15 feet per year, and it will cover whatever structure you put it on. Definitely house-eater category. At it's best, it is an amazingly beautiful rose. But in our humid climate, it balls for quite a lot of the year, and has severe thrips injury at other times. So it's not always beautiful. It's pretty good right now. It's other fault is that it is the most unforgiving of pruning of any rose I've ever seen. We grow it on an 8x8x8 foot arbor with two benches underneath. To keep it tidy on that structure, we have tried to give it a "haircut" a foot or so above the 8' roof. Doing so sometimes kills the plant to the ground. So on those occasions when we simply must prune it, we make sure there are replacement plants coming along in the greenhouse, just in case. What I try to do instead is to remove wayward branches one at a time, so the plant won't "notice" on any one day that it's been pruned. That seems to work."

And here was his followup reply when I compared it Graham Thomas.

"Molineux, I literally laughed out loud when I read about your epiphany. Yes, the rose is less than perfect. Yet it is one of my favorites (which is why I always keep a replacement on the way for if/when I kill my big ones). When it doesn't ball or have thrips, it is among the most beautiful of our roses, and it has a delightful perfume. I've never grown "The Pilgrim," so can't compare there, but compared with "Graham Thomas," at least in our climate, GT is the dawg, and doesn't begin to hold a candle to MN. FAR more black-spotty, FAR less floriferous, at least as thripsy. Granted, GT doesn't ball badly, but otherwise, I wouldn't compare the two. Now that being said, I do grow and like GT. But I consider it a challenge in this climate. I've seen it far better in cooler, dryer climates. Still, you have a point -- MN is finicky, no doubt about it. But I would not want to be without it in the garden."

Image of MN by riku posted at the wax poetically thread.
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Here is a link that might be useful: Please was poetically over MN thread

I know it was grown successfully in Southern California in the 19th Century. BUT even back then, "everyone" knew that you had to grow it on vigorous rootstock.

My covetous gene has been re-awakened. :-) Too bad that virus-free, Fortuniana-grafted clone isn't available out here.

Jeri

Well, I bought it, so I may as well give it a try. I think I'll use the trellis on the west side and go from there. It sounds too finicky for a major investment for another structure.

If I thought it could be put on a large, wide teepee though, I could make one, even with copper pipe, for not a whole lot of money.

Do you think this house eater can be trained that way?

Sandy

Sandy

Sandy- how do you make a teepee out of copper pipe? Is there any discount source for copper pipe- kind of expensive at Lowe's. Thanks, Brandy

The most unusual Marechal Niel bloom I got so far - you see the thrip damage but if botrytis could create such interesting variations I might hate it a bit less. If it isn't botrytis I do not know what it is.

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Ceterum - Your bloom looks like a red sport of Marechal. That is an extremely interesting bloom and I would propagate it's cane or have some one propagate several cuttings from the cane that it grows on!!!!

If I ever see this bloom again, I will try to root cuttings from that cane. Right now the plant has tons of blooms but not one has this coloration. I expect that after the serious and lasting rain showers (at long last!) close to all blooms have balled but I keep checking if you think this could be a sport not just an accident.

Nice apricot blooms I had in early April but those, I assume, were the collorary of cool weather in early April.

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Brandy, I'm not quite sure how I'd do the copper teepee yet, but I remember seeing some great posts here in the past on how to make them out of rebar. I'm hoping I'd figure it out from that. It would involve some welding, but if I can figure out how I want it, my husband can weld it for me. Rebar is great stuff, but with the winds we get here the rough texture of it cuts the canes, even if loosely tied.

Ceterum, those blooms are so gorgeous! Hope you get some sports. That would be awesome! What growing conditions do you have it in (full sun, part shade, afternoon sun only, morning sun only, etc.), and how do you display yours (trellis, fence, pillar)?

Has anyone tried growing Marcechal Niel on a teepee, or even up into a tree? In my case it would be a palm tree. But the palm tree thing could probably be a pain.

Sandy

Those photos are beautiful! I got the "virus free" clone from Vintage...which means I think it's from Malcolm Manners, but it is own-root. I planted it sometime within the last year...and it is still very small.

Jerome

My Marechal Niel is growing on the south side relatively close to the house. The structure is a tall pole with a wagon wheel sitting on the top, and MN cascades down from the wheel. I have to thank Kaye for her idea and step by step help. Unfortunately this wheel is not big or wide enough. I was not prepared that a tender rose could grow so big in a colder zone 8; I assumed that Malcolm Manner's description of the size of MN applies only to zone 10 Florida.

Sandy, Martha Davies (Bartow Fla.) used to grow it over the top of a tree (oak? orange? I don't recall), and it covered most of her back yard that way. A stunning display. I think it would be fine on a teepee, but it would need to be a big teepee. Could you use pvc? Thicker pieces and less cost than copper. Or as a gigantic pillar, use 4 uprights (4x4s?) at least 8' tall, better 10', set 3 or more feet apart in a square, and put 2x4 horizontal cross-bars every 1.5-2 ft on all 4 sides. Plant the plant in the center.

I am envious that you have obtained this lovely rose on R. fortuniana stock. I've been looking for that for a couple of years, and none of the nurseries that use fort. have had this one in their lists of available plants.

I have a virus free own root plant, but it's a "dud" here- three years old , has about 5 canes that are less than 5 feet. I really need the house eater vigor for the location!

Best wishes, please post pictures of yours next year, after it is on it's teepee and starting to grow some. It should give you decades of beauty!

Allison

I thought of the square pillar idea last night, as I recalled Dan Mills has several climbers growing that way. I think I would still lean towards metal of some sort for a structure, as I think wood might attract some wood eating critters I may not like to have around. Certainly wood would be much more affordable though.

I always wondered how easy it would be to take care of a rose that is enclosed inside a pillar such as this. Wouldn't it be hard to get in there to remove a dead cane, etc.?

The wagon wheel idea sounds pretty too, but don't know about growing a monster bush that way.

I'm glad this bush is still small in the pot right now.

Sandy

My MN is from Vintage and it is just about 2.5 years old. It is almost 4 feet tall by 5 feet wide at present. I expect it will continue to get bigger as it ages. Spring flush on this rose eclipsed all my other roses, not only because of the amount of flowers packed onto the small (at that time) bush, but the size, color and fragrance of the blooms. This has become my favorite rose. However, the way the canes are growing in such a tangled way, I expect pruning will be a bit of a challenge. I am planning on training on a trellis, where I can stretch the canes out a bit. I hope this will make it easier to prune.

I'm still brainstorming - will let you know my ideas as gel. I'm leaning towards building a large (20 feet wide by 8 feet tall) trellis structure along my "eyesore" area that leads out to pool equipment, etc. It really is an ideal site for a rose. It faces east, gets sun all day, and is somewhat protected from high winds. I suspect if Marechal Niel dislikes any pruning he would not like exposed winds out in the open. It means I have to relocate 3 roses I planted there in the spring, but that's O.K. Solves the eyesore aspect also.

My husband knows how to weld, but even so, aluminum posts and square tubing is pricey. However, it is an investment in our home, so I'd like to find a way to do it. We talked about pressure treated posts, but have determined they may last only 20 years. I want the structure to last longer than that. If this roses does well, I don't want to have the structure come down in 20 years. I hope to still be alive and kicking then.

It would be really cool to have this rose thrive. I don't want fussy roses, but this one is sparking my challange genes.

Sandy

Well, I caved in and gave Marechal Niel my most coveted trellis today. It is about 18 feet long and about 8 feet high and faces east, and also gets some sideways southern exposure. It gets sun all day until about 3 or 4 in the afternoon (depends on the season, sometimes longer). It is as about a perfect spot for a rose as one could get.

He better deserve it, because I had that trellis reserved for a planting of Don Juans! I'm hoping that MN grows like crazy so I'll have some pictures to show all of you someday.

Sandy

Sandy, I would just imagine your nice plant of MN will be more than worthy of the trellis! Don Juan should move over, and give this guy the space he deserves in your garden!

Best Wishes!
Allison

Good luck with your Maréchal Niel! As I've said before, it may be a finicky rose, but only in the sense of having a rather precise set of requirements. Mine is about twenty feet tall and the only difficulty I have with it is figuring out how to prune the dang thing and suffering watching the beetles eating the lovely blooms. But it is perfectly happy and robust with very little attention. So--it can be done.

Melissa

Sandy, -- 24 hours later, has it covered the entire trellis and is it shouting "MORE! MORE! MORE!" yet? If not, give it another 24 or so... Seriously, it should cover the trellis more quickly than you would have thought possible, and should be beautiful there.

Did you tour the college's gardens when you were here? If so you probably saw that ours, on that 8x8x8' arbor, has severely overgrown the structure. I wish I had a bigger structure for it.
Malcolm

I just checked on Marechal Niel. He has perked up and looks as if he is saying "well, it's about time you got me out of that stupid pot"! The plant itself (so far) is not large, but he has a wonderfully developed root system. I am going to take a "before" picture, and then regular follow ups.
Right now he looks tiny against such a large structure, but I'll be sure to check him daily.

Malcolm, I haven't seen your Marechal Niel. I'll have to plan on being at one of the Heritage Rose meetings that you are able to attend, and would have time to stroll through the gardens with me. We tried to find all the roses when we came to the sale, but could only find a couple of rose beds. All of the students that were outdoors were all new at the school, so they didn't know where they were.