Anyone know what is required to make this rose happy, short of relocating it to another garden hundreds of miles away :( ?

Lynn

I have found the most effective treatment, here, is the addition of a little soil sulphur. But for such little pots, maybe stick to something like dilute Miracid???

Anyhow, it can make quite a climber!

Jeri

I thought that putting it in the ground would bring about improvement. Being in the ground has brought about growth, but pretty weak growth. The one in the pot is just stunted. I decided to keep the Grandmother's Hat and the EVS in the pot was going to the be the gift for my sister-in-law. I hope to revitalize that one too.

Lynn

I personally prefer to keep them in a 1-G pot until I can see that they are pushing good roots out the bottom. THEN I would put them in a 5-G, until they're pushing roots out of that. Without seeing them -- but having seen hundreds of band plants over the last few decades, I would guess that your plants are not STUNTED. They're just . . . little. They're babies.

Some folks do put very small plants into the ground. I can see that in very civilized conditions. When we have done that, we have had disastrous results, so we no longer do it.

I am NOT sanguine about adding vinegar to irrigation water.

To be honest, I don't feed tiny, stressed, new band plants AT ALL. I pot up to 1-G. I water them, and put them in dappled shade. I don't think your plants have enough root at this point to process a lot of extra nutrients.

This is what we have done, for many years, and it works for us. It's not the ONLY way, but it is demonstrably the best way HERE.

And, FYI, our water tests between 8.3 and 8.5.

Jeri

I have been comparing EVS to bands that I received at the same time, a few days prior to EVS, and some were received about three weeks or so later. All, including the EVS, were potted up to one or two gallon, some to 5, about 10 weeks ago.. Those bands have almost if not doubled in size. Some are in the ground, and putting out new growth. Their leaves look normal and healthy. My EVS leaves are approximately the size of an eraser head; it just does not seem normal. If it were not dark already, I would take a photo, but that is the best description I can think of off hand.

I amended the soil with organics and soil sulfur due to test results which showed it being very low organic matter, having a high pH (7.6 - 8.6 depending upon the area of my yard), and low levels for some of the basic nutrients. If I planted one of those rose in the ground without amending my horrible soil, I fear it would not have much to draw upon for sustenance.

I guess it is just a wait and see for EVS... Thusfar, I am not happy with it. In my climate now ( 70's - 80's, arid, and very sunny blue skies), the roses are putting out obvious healthy growth daily; except for EVS. EVS is close to becoming part of my compost heap.

God knows, they're not OUR best roses, and your conditions are tougher, AND you are as alkaline or moreso than I am.

I'll say again, though, that leetle band plants just don't have enough root to handle a lot of supplements. I think they need to build slowly to the point where they have some substantial root, before you can mess with that sort of thing.

Just MHO -- and FWIW. Feel free to ignore.

Jeri In Alkaline-Land

I ordered Vintage's rose book weeks ago but will not receive it for a couple of weeks or so. Are you familiar with it? Does it provide information like how to determine if a rose is multiflora? I would define multiflora quite literally and think that it would be a rose with clusters of flowers; like a Knock out and even Sally Holmes. Would this be accurate? If so, I have a Sally Holmes too... and then I would say Oh Noooooo.

I am going to exercise a little patience. Hopefully over time it will establish itself and begin looking like a healthy plant.

You can suspect it is multiflora because of the cluster flowering and arching canes, but the only real way I know for sure is because I check how its classed and check the lineage on www.helpmefind.com

EvS is classed by some as a polyantha, which is a type of rose that came out of multiflora crossed with a china rose. EvS is not very far removed from one of the original old polyanthas, 'Mignonette'. Developed by Peter Lambert in 1909, EvS is a cross between a polyantha and a hybrid perpetual.

Lambert named these semi-climbing/climbing polyanthas like EvS after himself - 'lambertiana' to describe roses which are like polyantha climbers or semi-climbers. They are a bridge between hybrid musks and polyanthas, but they are all basically hybrid multifloras.

So then, lambertianas and polyanthas all are multiflora crossed with something-or-other, pretty much. Hybrid musks too, are hybrid multiflora also; there's not much actual musk rose in the hybrid musks. Sally Holmes is a hybrid musk, so basically hybrid multiflora also.

The history of how these old roses developed is part of my fascination with them. EvS is a beautiful rose in many gardens. If it doesn't eventually do well for you, there are a lot of others that will be good. I've pitched a lot of roses that just don't do well up here! Gean

Kittymoonbeam, One of my EVS was a free rose that arrived and was on the much smaller side. The other one was on the smaller side, but the leaves were medium green and slightly smaller than normal. I made potassium water that had 1/8 of a teaspoon of vinegar to a gallon of water, and the plants went further down hill. It was likely heavy on the potassium because it was a few days after making it before I used the water. This morning, the EVS in the ground has a lot of new growth, but the leaves are still light green; almost a lime green. The other one has yet to put out any new growth in in over 10 weeks.

What ratio of vinegar to water do you use on your bands? At this point I would try it on the EVS in the one-gallon pot, as it truly is one step away from the compost heap.

Lynn

FWIW, most of the purple-range roses with a Multiflora background have struggled some in my conditions. I've seen both Reine des Violettes and Excellenz von Schubert with leaves so chlorotic that they were white. After trying various fixes, I ended up putting a small amount of soil sulfur under the bubbler emitters. I found that I only had to do this once every couple of years.

But I emphasize that I did not do this until the plants had achieved some maturity.

As far as Sally Holmes is concerned, that rose has never, EVER been even faintly chlorotic here. Its foliage is a nice, dark green, and it is very vigorous.

OTOH, this particular SH was ordered from Heirloom, back in the day. They had their plant from its breeder, and I think it had not been budded. OTOH, a second plant, obtained from a different source, and budded, was a weak grower, never getting above 3 ft., and was definitely virused.

So -- many things can affect the vigor and performance of a rose.

Jeri

White leaves; if ever there was a sign that something was off, as compared to the roses I have seen....Geesh.

So, one if the big issues with the roses that have a multiflora background is the need for slightly acidic soil?

And of course I would have the Reine des Violettes too... growing in a one gallon pot, hopefully to plant next year... I am really picking some of them....

My concern is, or what I am trying to understand relates to much of my soil all over that has been fairly recently amended with soil sulfur, gypsum, blood meal and super phosphate and the impact upon new own root plants this can have. If the soil is void of the nutrients that the soil should have, would the addition of what is void to improve the soil, taking up to a normal level, hinder growth, or kill the new own root? My bands had been in one gallon or so pots for close to three months with daily watering, would there still be enough nutrients in that potting mix to support rose growth in soil devoid of nutrients with a high pH?

Is there still a functioning Las Vegas Rose Society? Yes. There seems to be. There, you're going to find people with decades of experience in growing roses in your conditions. I recommend that you make contact with them. You may not be growing the same roses that they are, but they know about dealing with your specific water, soil, and air.

But, in any case, you DO NOT want to fertilize very young plants. If you push top-growth at the expense of roots, you can kill the plants. Let them grow some roots. When the roots are peeking out the bottom of the pots, they have roots. And that happens on Ma Nature's schedule.

Killing with kindness is still killing. And I am here to tell you that killing a young plant with fertilizers is not apocryphal. I know, because I have done it.

Jeri

Roses are puzzles in how to make them thrive where you are. I will mess with one for several years, but eventually, I will move on, depending on how much I love it. My garden areas are not that large, so I am picky about what I let in and what I let stay. Not everyone approaches their gardens the same. I am not basically a collector so much as I am a gardener. If a rose won't do well for me after several years, I let it go. Not everyone is like me and I've messed up by giving up too soon or not knowing enough or not paying enough attention.

Don't give up too soon because it is a great rose. I wonder how it will do in the aridity of your air, but I agree with Jeri, there's a whole lot of things at play. I've found learning takes time and I've screwed up a lot of times.

I contacted the vendor and they replaced it with another gallica. Maybe your plant is just a dud and it either just needs more time for the top growth to catch up to the roots as Jeri said already or it is just not a good plant. Just give it time and I again agree with Jeri, don't fertilize it or do too much to it. I've killed a lot of baby things with too much, too soon.

Okay, back to chicken enchiladas. good luck with it, Lynn. It's a great learning experience, whatever you do with it. Gean

I wonder if doing too much to change the ph from what is natural in an area shocks roses and causes more problems than it solves. I also wonder if it makes a difference what ph the rose was used to at the nursery it came from and then is plunked into a new environment with much different conditions. Because shipping in a dark box for days has been known to shock plants and may require recovery, so what about ph changes? And what difference does it make if the ph is fluctuating on a long-term basis, say because multiple supplements are being used, but the natural conditions are pushing the ph in a much different direction. What does that do to roses? Might the plant adapt better on its own without all the extra effort?

I don't know, but I do nothing really when planting roses that are sometimes mentioned on these forums as requiring acid conditions. They certainly don't get that here yet they aren't chlorotic. Examples being rugosas, multiflora-based polyanthas, and even Reine des Violettes (she has always looked fine here with no special treatment of any kind). However, I did get multiple roses, that I'd never seen chlorosis on, develop it after application of alfalfa, recommended on these forums as good rose food, not to solve any problem. That makes me think about what is being done to alter the soil/environment that may tip things out of kliter so to say, and cause roses show various signs of distress. Or what are people applying, without really thinking about it, such as a readily available fertilizer, but that fertilizer contains something(s) that upsets the natural balance of that location? One thinks the roses should be happy and look great, but all the extra care is completely unappreciated.;)

Melissa

In much of the east, a pH of 5.0 - 5.3 is perfectly normal and reasonable. In those areas, a pH over 6 is considered quite high. So you will get comments about how multiflora grows well in soils of high pH. But that means high for the east. My soil, with a natural pH of over 7 is considered practically off the charts high.

So to successfully grow the acid loving roses in an area where a reasonable pH is around 8, is going to take some doing. The target pH for the soil really has to be under 6, and the water has to be adjusted to keep it there under heavy irrigation. I expect it is possible, but will require a lot of fiddling that introduces the possibility of error.

BTW, rugosas are also picky about pH, but not to the extent the multifloras are. They will need something under 7.

I was a involved with the rose society about 12 years ago. The soil amendments that I use today come from their advice, but have been recently modified due to professional soil analysis tests.

In past gardens, the situation was more ideal as I hired professionals to put in the first landscape/garden. I insisted upon thorough soil amending prior to anything being planted. The yard I have now, well... I am working with what already was in place; a neglected yard.

My yard now has both clay and sandy soil. The clay has drainage issues and a pH of 8.6. The sandy soil has no drainage issues generally speaking and a lower pH. This is my third garden here, and generally speaking, we run into caliche when excavating for pools, and it is usually down much deeper than the holes we dig for roses and plants; not to imply that it absolutely cannot exist in less depth, and, it is more commonly found in some areas of the valley. My first pool excavation resulted in caliche being hit at about 5' in one portion of a larger section.

Modern roses rule here; that is modern roses grown on Dr. Huey. That is all available at our local nurseries as well, with the exception of an old Austin or two at an independent nursery. Years ago, I successfully grew a few Austin's, a Sombreuil and a Zephrine Drouhin, which confirmed for me that there are OGR's that thrive here; but, they were all grafted. I also contacted a member of the local rose society who now seems to be inactive. She had a list of OGR's that perform well here that I found, and have selected some of my roses from her list.

I am going against the norm in Las Vegas by making rose selections that aren't in the modern class. There is not a single rose that I can think of off hand, recommended by the society, that was not a modern; and mostly hybrid teas and floribundas etc. Learning about the OGR roses and their specific needs, and what to do with these bands etc.,is not the focus of most rose gardeners here, and thus I chose not to utilize local gardeners as a resource.
What to do with my soil and the status quo, modern grafted roses primarily ordered and planted bare root, that I know.

My soil which can be found in other cities that also sit on the Mojave ( a large chunk of So. CA, So. UT, and West. AZ.... could have some commonality with others.

Determining what is best for my own root plants, that is where I lack and seek knowledge.

Harborrose, yes, I am concluding that this is going to be trial and error; hopefully just a little. Due to my lack of knowledge of own roots and OGR's, I am trying to learn what I should, to do the best I can for my roses. I definitely don't mind amending soil, even removing some of it, because that clay really is not suitable for a lot of things, but that is about it.

Harborrose, I have contemplated if the rose in the pot is a dud. It was a measly little thing when it arrived. Adding the potassium/ vinegar water after about two months and it had not put out any new growth at all, probably did not help the little thing. It was a free rose from RVR so if it does not survive I will just toss it.

Mad_gallica.... yea, yea I have a rugosa too :) It is a, "I will see what happens plant" because I love the look of Therese Bugnet, but I only have one of those. I have read that most roses prefer a pH around the 6.5-6.8 range, unless they are really the acid loving type. But like you and others wrote, there is such a variance of factors that impact a rose's performance nothing is absolute. My sandy soil and water is in the 7.6 - 7.8 range and I have always amended my soil annually to get the pH lower for more optimal performance of many plants I grow.

Nanadoll,

Do you use Hi Yield Soil Sulfur? I have searched for an acid based granular fertilizer for my established roses and have yet to find one. Would you mind offering a suggestion? What is your protocol for handling own root bands etc.?

how are the roots on that band? sometimes I'll slip a rose out of its pot and try to check out the roots. Some own-root roses grow roots for a long time before the top catches up.

I did some cuttings of a purple poly this spring and there has been very little top growth on all four of them. I'd think they were all just not going to grow at all except when I dug them up from the cutting bed where I'd stuck them, the roots were very healthy on all four. They just weren't growing on top. Usually with my cuttings I get the opposite going on, top growth and not enough root to support the leaves. I potted them up and they still, a month or more later, don't have much, if any, top growth. But I know the roots are good, so I am just waiting.

all that to say, do you see any healthy root growth?

I've learned at least to remind myself that nature goes at her own pace, and if I try to accelerate that, I will only end by doing harm, and frustrating myself.

Plants do the darndest things. We need to learn to enjoy that.

Jeri

Off to the partial shade it goes, and my chant begins, patience .... patience......