The common advice to prepare in fall probably assumes heavy soil that will be too wet to plow in spring, so you don't need to do it now, but you can if you want. I wouldn't dig in the Rose Tone, because you would be wasting some of the nutrients. Fertilizer works just fine applied to the surface, unless the soil is quite deficient in phosphorus.

If the soil is really sandy, dig in 1-1/2 inches of plain clay kitty litter, and the result will be nice sandy loam.

It really is a good idea to amend the whole bed, but you only need to go 1 foot deep, if that.

This post was edited by michaelg on Mon, Sep 23, 13 at 18:31

I add a lot of manure and kitty litter to my planting holes and I try to do that months in advance so everything has time to settle. I find if I don't do that, my roses are sitting in a depression. But I also do the entire bed to a lesser depth.

I could probably ammend the whole bed if I only went down 12 inches. Lately I have dug up and transplanted a bunch of my roses to better locations. My husband was able to dig up a substantial amount of rootball but we had to dig a way bigger hole than 12 inches. Also, when planting bare roots, won't they need to be planted deeper?

Also, I never heard of the idea of using kitty litter to improve sandy soil until being back on these forums. That seems like a neat trick, cheap too.

So what should I add? Manure, compost, cat litter...anything else? Can I just dig up/remove the top 8 inches or so and then add the other stuff in layers and then work it in...going down 12 inches in total?

Michael and Florida Rose, I truly appreciate your help!! Shelley

If you amend 12" of topsoil, but have to dig 18" holes for bare roots, that's OK. Just backfill the bottom 6" with unamended soil. Roots that deep are coarse and serve mostly for anchorage and emergency water supply. Fine feeder roots are shallow. If you mix 15% cat litter into the deep backfill, that would help retain water. But I wouldn't waste manure and compost down there.

At the end of every summer I put a thick layer of compost on my veggie beds since they lie fallow for the fall and winter. In spring the beds are nice and fluffy and full of earthworms. This has worked out well.

I agree with Hoovb - as long as you have the winter ahead notice, this is a prime opportunity for the "lazy" method of improving your soil. Layer compost (like Hoovb) or organic materials on top of your existing soil (like leaves, grass, top soil) with some mulch over the top to keep out weeds - they call this "lasagna gardening" and it lets the worms do the work for you. This way you can improve your whole bed with a minimum of effort, and save the fertilizer and other more timely amendments for the spring when you plant. Adding lots of organic materials this fall will not only help improve the overall composition of your soil, but make the holes easier to dig in the spring. I think if you dug the holes this fall, they'd fall together if the soil is loose or get hard edges otherwise, and not have as much benefit as you might like.

As for what to specifically add to your soil, I'll leave it to other folks to suggest which additives are best for sandy soil, since that's not my soil condition here. Just another voice suggesting whatever you add, layer it on top and let the worms earn their keep all winter.

Cynthia

Michael, I get it now...amend the top 12 inches even if you have to dig further to plant. I'm seriously considering doing the whole bed. I don't have any reason for doing it ahead of time except that I have the time, the energy and the weather has been beautiful. I might as well prepare.
Can you please tell me what you would put in, specifically, to improve my sandy, acidic soil? Again, I'm thinking the cat litter, composted manure and compost from my own compost pile. What do you think? And how much of my own soil should make up the top 12 inches of my bed?

HoovB, I like the idea of adding the stuff now, on top, and letting the worms do the work. Maybe I will just add the stuff to the top and then mix the soil up a bit in the spring before planting?

Cynthia, thanks for your input. It makes sense that digging the holes now might not have as much benefit.

...And I am coming to like the idea of amending the whole bed. I had the idea that I had to dig it out about 18 inches and then start over. That just sounded exhausting. The lasagna gardening ("lazy?") way of doing it sounds much better. And amending to a depth of 12 inches definitely sounds better.

Thank you all for your advice. I appreciate your thoughts and experience! Shelley

That is so interesting about the kitty litter; it's clay, right? so if you add it to soil, it becomes more clay-esque; GREAT!!! I must try this,in the places where I am trying to make my thin soil deeper (native soil is clay in many areas around here,and I am dragging in bags of the heavy stuff, but to have some help with an easy-to-find,inexpensive material that I can just buy rather than dig up is all to the good!) Shelley, I strongly encourage you to do the whole bed; in the long run it is much easier and you get much better results. I used to dig those "big holes" for my roses, but wound up with the so-called "bathtub effect"; i.e.,the roses' roots tended to just remain in the improved hole, not venturing out to the un-improved soil,stunting the plants in the long run. I f roses and/or potatoes have never grown in that bed, there's no reason I can see why you'd have to change the soil; just improve it with lots of organic matter, and this kitty-litter idea seems great; roses really do love clay...bart

I top dress both beds with composted manure and any of my own compost in October/November. I would save the Rose Tone until next year.

If the soil is already somewhat loamy (forms a ball when wet), I would dig in 1" of clay litter and 3" of organic matter. If it is beach sand, use 1-1/2" of litter and 3" of OM. The OM doesn't add permanent volume, so you don't need to remove any of the native soil unless you need it elsewhere. It will settle quite a bit over the winter.

Be sure it is plain generic calcined clay without additives for clumping, pH control, etc.

Last night I was reading back on old threads regarding soil and realized that my soil isn't completely sandy, a lot of it is silt. It's sandy but also dusty, particularly when u dig down deeper.

Michael, would u still suggest adding cat litter and if so, to what depth?

Diane, thanks for your input. It is especially good to learn what works for someone relatively close to me.

If you are amending the pH, it is best to do that in advance. Sulfur to reduce alkalinity takes a long time to work, so doing it long before planting is ideal.

I don't have an acid soil that requires lime, so I don't know if it is similarly slow-acting. However, I remember that farmers where I lived as a child spread lime earlier than they spread manure. It could be merely that the two could not be used at the same time.

Other than that, you can amend an entire bed by digging in compost. You don't have to go too deep, as others have said. All by itself that is best for most soils. Unless you have serious drainage issues, you really do not need to do anything else.

I have never heard of adding cat litter. Adding sand to a clay soil is problematic, so my own tendency is to go slow on adding clay to a sandy soil. Here I speak from caution, though, not knowledge.

Rosefolly

I've been wondering, if I have hardwood mulch spread over the top of my soil can I layer compost on top of that or do I need to remove it first?

Josh

I have been adding kitty litter to my beach sand garden for as long as I have been gardening. I add more than I used to since reading Michael's posts over the last several years. It is a huge benefit with water retention and soil texture. I also add a small amount to my pots, and the roses seem to love it.

Does it matter if the additives are just layered or should they be mixed up? In other words, can I put down an inch and a half of kitty litter and then 3 inches of organics or would it be more beneficial to mix up the stuff then apply to soil?

Josh -- if you add small-particle-size stuff over large-particle-size stuff, eventually the finer material will work its way down and the larger material up as rain or hose-water washes it down and earthworms do their work. In the mean time, however, you will be increasing the rate of decomposition of the mulch layer you put down first.

Personally, my "plan of attack" with my yard will be to alternate layers of mulch and composted manure every year to improve the soil here. I'm still finishing up putting the log edging together, but this Autumn, I'll be covering the bed in a mulch of composted shredded tree-mulch (I found a local and relatively inexpensive source). In the Spring, I'll be top-dressing the whole bed with composted manure. And...repeat every Autumn and Spring.

I'll feed the roses individually with organic granular fertilizer at leafing-out time, and then put fish/seaweed emulsion on a hose-end sprayer for feeding the rest of the season.

:-)

~Christopher

Rosefolly is correct that we should not add sand to clay soil (a mistake I made in the past). The reason is that the clay fills all the spaces between sand grains. The result is a soil that is even heavier than before, with less drainage, but also less retention of water and nutrients. You need about 4:1 sand before it starts getting crumbly and airy. But the other way around, the sand is already airy. You just have to avoid adding so much clay that it fills the spaces. That's why I advise that people add only 10-15% clay to sandy soil.

If you have some silt in the sand, that's good. Adding clay will make loam. Silt retains water but it doesn't retain nutrients like clay does. You can shake a soil sample in a jar with water and 1 TB table salt to see if it also contains clay. Shake really hard and long. The sand (light colored) settles immediately, the silt (dark colored) settles in between a couple of minutes and a few hours, and what is still suspended then is clay (light gray, yellow or orange).

Unlike organic matter, the clay litter must be dug in. Do not add it as a layer at any level. If you are digging anyway, I would dig in some manure or compost.

Michael, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your time and value your information. Thank you for always answering my questions. I'm keeping my eyes open on sales for cat litter, digging composted materials from my compost pile and picking up some bags of manure to use this weekend. I'm excited to get my garden space all ready to plant next spring. When I get home from work, I will be doing the soil test that you described. I wonder what the results will be!

Rosefolly and FloridaRose, thanks for your valuable input as well.

Thanks again, Shelley

The store brand of cat litter at cheaper grocery chains in 25 lb bags is cheap every day.

Noted. Thanks! :)