Because, to start with, young plants are famously changeable. I mean, really! And my husband wants me to say, Chinas on the whole can be changeable, and he feels that's part of their charm.

Jeri

I have a bush (which I've called LP) that's been in my garden for 15 years. For the sake of comparison, I'll post a photo of mine on Monday.

I'd ask you, with all respect, not to pit one nursery against another. God in Heaven knows, we don't need that.

Feel free to send me pix of your rose, and I'll see what I can see.

No one can have too many Chinas, so you can't go wrong, buying one from every remaining nursery.

Jeri

How many flowers have you seen on your plant? I noticed that on some of my other Chinas, the first wave of flowers that opened on them did look only vaguely like the way they should, but after disbudding and growing them a bit, I'm seeing normal flowers in the last few weeks.

There was talk on this forum about East-coast vs West-coast discrepancies between 'Louis Philippe' and 'Cramoisi Superieur'. It seems that most West-coast nurseries sell 'Louis Philippe' as the China with more strongly-scented flowers, on a plant that grows a little more tall than broad. 'Cramoisi Superieur' is said to have less-fragrant flowers, and the plant grows a little more broad than tall. Nurseries on the East-coast reverse the situation, and it's hard to say which side has it right.

While we're talking about it, RVR has two 'Louis Philippe' roses offered -- one which I'm assuming is the traditional West-coast fragrant red China, and another labelled 'Louis Philippe from Florida' which doesn't have any further descriptive information on its page, and thus doesn't come up when searching by class for Chinas. You can find it by either searching alphabetically by rose name, or simply searching 'Louis Philippe' and finding two results. Does anyone know what this "Florida" version is? Does anyone have this rose? If I had more room, I'd buy it just to see how it differs from the other 'Louis Philippe' they sell. I'm guessing it's a locally-collected random unlabeled red China which was passed around under this name but not actually the same as what RVR sells under it. Hmmm.....

:-)

~Christopher

The LP bloom had about 3 times as many petals as the CS. The petals in the center of the bloom were pale pink blending into by a ring of deeper red petals around the outside of the bloom.

The CS blooms were similar, but with fewer petals and more completely red, with a few small pale petals around the center of the bloom. The blooms were not as large or fragrant as LP.

I may have photos, but it will take a while to find them When I do, I'll post them here.

I can't tell you what it is, either -- tho it has a familiar look.

Were I you, I would send that image to the nursery from which you purchased it, and ask them what they think it might be. They will likely happily send you the correct rose. It's always good to notify any nursery of an error, and give them a chance to make it right.

Jeri

I had the same problem -- no worse -- years ago with Heirloom Old Garden Roses. I suspect they will be better under new management.

I always say -- every nursery makes mistakes. (We ALL make mistakes.) The big test is how the errors are dealt with.

In this case, though, I would want to know what the heck you have there. It's a really nifty rose.

Jeri

I suspect that what you have there is 'Papa Hemeray.' This a a China that I really like.

It's a China, Bred by Hemeray-Aubert (France, 1912) -- from Old Blush and Hiawatha. REALLY a nifty little rose.

Jeri

Jeri

Zachary

He really IS charming.

Jeri

On the other hand, in my snob garden "modern red hybrid tea" is my idea of a total nightmare, but I have "Oklahoma" and I think it's one of the most stunning roses I have ever grown. If the cool, foggy weather means that the flowers don't always fully open, it also means that the dark color doesn't fade- gorgeous black/purple cabbages! . And that scent!!! (yes, I know I've gone off-topic...sorry...)

Jeri

FWIW, here is 'Louis Phillipe' in coastal Camarillo, SoCal.

And thank you. It's a lovely rose. It has flourished in a spot where reflected heat killed three previous roses. Tough old bird.

Jeri

There IS a great deal of confusion between 'Cramoisi Superieur' and 'Louis Phillipe,' but I tend not to worry about it. There are other, mostly found, red Chinas that appear to be in the same "family" of roses. I don't worry about that, either.

Most of these guys have been shared around in seedling form, and the breeding is in any case un-recorded. I suppose there is a chance one or both or others were brought to Europe from China, and introduced as if they'd been bred there. I decided a long time ago that it was a mug's game to worry overly about which was which in my own garden. I'm generally too laissez faire for that. It's like worrying about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Frankly, the one I like best of all of them is "Elisabeth's China," -- one of the "Legacy" roses in the Sacramento City Cemetery. Elisabeth Stober's rose blooms all the time, and propagates like mad. Like most of the other red Chinas, she can be a very dark blood red, or (in hot weather) gentle her color down to shade of pink

JeriJen

"Elisabeth's China":

It looks like this was planted for Elisabeth not long after she died (tho we can never know for sure). I like to think it was a rose from Elisabeth's own garden. It's very fragrant!

It is not in commerce, but is often available at the cemetery's annual spring Open Gardens. That's where I bought the two I have.

It's just one of many really gorgeous, unidentifiable, red China Roses.

Jerijen

What wonderful gifts those folks left us! And what great things it says for roses like these who survived many long decades of neglect.

Jeri

Randy

Just letting you know I talked to Janet at RVR and she said she would send out a replacement next week for
Louis and then a Cardinal, that didn't make it that I was hoping would pull through. We had a very nice conversation, although when I told her I was asking for help on here , asking to make sure it was mis-identified. She asked if I was bad mouthing them. I assured her that I would never do that to them or any other nusery, I was just getting a opinion on the photo. I meant to tell her to feel free to look it up on here, but forgot to, I told her I actually loved the roses they sent out and highly recommened them. I spoke to her about the misunderstanding, and you was right, that's all it was. So out of like around 60 roses this year I had a total of 4 die, two from them, why don't know, it happens. She also gave me some advice since I just got out the hospital today, I had my right thyroid removed yesterday, all is well so far :) I tried privately emailing you but it wouldn't let me. Glad everything worked out and thanks for all the great advice! I made a mistake and took what they said wrong, which
I shall try never to do again in the future!

I'm just glad she is dedicated enough to keep the nursery going, in tough times.

Jeri

i'm, fixing to go back to bed so exscuse my bad memory. I assured her that James has been nothing but the nicest person to me and I didn't think their could be anything but a accidental hangup.

I told her I was planning on getting a couple of more from them next year, they have always, even with the two mislabels, the the best rooted bands. They have become a favorite along with burlington,longago, and high country.Ohh, and ARE and RU! I only had one experience with vintage, but I am sorry they are gone.

Anyway, thanks for all your help!

Just my observations on the plants that ARE labels as Louis & Cramoisi--I love them both. Chamblee's plants that I've observed are similar.

Sorry you had to have surgery--best wishes :-)

I am thinking that this is due to it being young, but I definitely notice a white eye at the center. The shape of the flowers is cupped, and on the outside does look just like 'Louis Philippe' on HelpMeFind, but it's as though someone ripped out the very center. I'm seeing two or three rows of petals on the outside, and I smell something that reminds me of Cherry Nibs (the short pieces of red "licorice" put out by Twizzlers).

I DO think I PROBABLY got the right rose, being as none of the other red Chinas sold by RVR look to be a better match, but I'm wondering if anyone growing 'Louis Philippe' could "dissect" a flower and tell me if the large outer two or three rows of petals have white bases. Perhaps you can't see them on fully-double flowers, but are they there nonetheless? I'll have to take pics in the next couple of days.

I notice white centers on Jardineratx's pic, and that the center seems "missing", and this is sort of how my rose looks -- except on mine, the petals it has do maintain the cupped shape found on 'Louis Philippe'.

I think that Jeri's pics of 'Louis Philippe' offer a good base for how mine look -- just imagine removing the inward-folding petals, keep the outer three rows of petals, and keep the cupped shape. And when you peek into the "cup", you can see that the petals have white bases, forming a white "eye" that is mostly obscured by the cup-shape of the outer petals. That's how mine look. Is that just 'Louis Philippe' as a baby?

:-)

~Christopher

:-)

~Christopher