My 2 Knock-outs were so huge this year that I had to killed them. Now I can see how roses look like in a warm zone with no yearly die-back to the crown. In 20 years I have never seen the rose park looking that bad, roses so tall, and so little bloom after a record-heat year.

The best looking bush is Gene Boerner floribunda with the most bloom, almost thornless, slender and compact. The second best is compact "Singin' in the Rain", more blooms than leaves, and the color is stunning with cool & wet weather. The minis are wiped-out by recent rain. Carefree Celebration went from cutie-pie last year to elephant-size 4' x 4' - too massive for a private garden.

I came home and saw my Marie-Pavie looks like a beauty queen compared to the massive sparse bushes at the park. I look at my Firefighter with 20+ buds/bloom and Sweet Promise loaded and realize that my baby roses have it good with alfalfa meal and horse manure. The leaf-compost in my no-water-zone also made landscape roses loaded.

Hard-pruning, or winter-kill really make a big difference in vigor, health, and beauty. Sadly I didn't see any beauty to capture at the rose park, so I came home and took picture of my "Lynnie" and "Firefighter" instead. Below is Kim Rupert's Lynnie, almost thornless, humming birds and bees like this one:

BTW, your roses are *gorgeous*. I love your Linnie, even though I've been a more "many petaled" rose admirer. Linnie reminds me a bit of the Dainty Bess i used to have. Not so much in color, but in the flower form. Dainty Bess's flowers always utterly charmed me, even though, for me, she was not the most vigorous grower.

I am no rose expert, but it seems to me that your firefighter has the most perfectly formed blooms. Lovely!

I was checking on "Easy Going" since I want a yellow to complement "Lynnie". I found a post by Hoovb describing "Easy going" as scattered blooms among a wide field of green, rather than a compact bouquet effect of "Day Breaker". So she removed "Easy going". Molineux would be a hardier choice of yellow for my zone 5a. The summer heat also does that to a few Austins: Green Giants with a few blooms on top. There are a few roses at Cantigny that remain "compact bouquet" from last month's heat: Gene Boerner, Singin' in the rain, Braveheart, and Double Delight (thorny but loaded with blooms).

Ater my park-visit, I'm disappointed with the massive growth of shrubs with no winter-kill, that I'll leaning toward miniflora and polyantha for that "compact bouquet" and "tons of blooms" look. I'll postpone my trip to Chicago Botanical Garden until next spring, roses will be more compact & more blooms with winter-die-back. Chicago Botanical has over 5,000 rose bushes, versus over 1,000 for Cantigny park.

The larger factor this year that was discussed often was the extreme heat and lack of rainfall. Everything leapt ahead during the prime conditions during our early spring, putting on lots of large, healthy growth, but bloom production dwindled with the taxing effects of 100 degree heat.

The biggest factor we've noticed in visiting public gardens is the timing of the visit. We've been alternately impressed or disappointed depending on catching everything in flush or showing up right after everything has been trimmed back. The most spectacular time to visit has typically been the first flush; anything after that is like throwing the dice.

I like best shrubs with some size on them, not neglected plants, but plants that are pruned moderately, neither too hard nor barely at all. Severe pruning year after year, whether done by the gardener or by nature itself, is very hard on the plant. Ultimately the stress of it can shorten the plant's life expectancy.

Rosefolly

I live 15 minutes from Cantigny Park, and 1 hour from Chicago Botanical Garden. We get free passes to both, but we visit Cantigny more often, except this year with my adding 32 roses to my garden. Yesterday I also visited a 3rd rose park at Danana horse ranch ... roses there are so clean and lush, which motivates me to get more horse manure for my garden.

Re Molineux...that's one I have it's a pretty thing and actually stays much shorter than the other DA's I have (all older varieties...I haven't purchased any new roses in a few years). Anyway, I really like Molineux and even considered using it for the front garden, but I detect a little bit of red in the buds and even in the bloom edges at times and I thought it wasn't quite right for what I had planned. But it grows well for me, stays pretty shrubby *and* healthy and the flowers are very pretty. You might want to give it a try?

I've pretty much made up my mind now that it's going to be Julia Child or Easy Going with either Mystic or Princess Alexander of Kent. But, I just saw a link for Pappu's garden and wow those Living Easy's sure look gorgeous. Have you grown that one and if so, how well did it do for you?

Julia Child is big and bushy (wide feet) at Cantigny, at least 4' x 4', it's best to see it first, before you buy it. When I traced the multiflora or rugosa heritage, Easy going has some of that. It will survive winter if your soil is neutral or acidic, but roots shrink in alkaline soil and can't make it over the winter like Jay-Jay, zone 6a, with soil pH at 8. My Austin Eglantyne didn't make it last winter although it's our warmest one. It has rugosa parentage and roots shrink in my alkaline soil. It only gives me 2 blooms per year.

I don't grow Living Easy. It's related to Easy Going. If you have neutral or acidic soil, both of them should bloom well, and survive the winter. They will be stingy-bloomer in my alkaline soil, and won't make it through zone 5a winter.

Interesting about pH and roses. I never knew that. Did I read that right? Your soil has a pH of 8? I haven't had my soil tested in many years, but the last time I had it tested it was 6.8 or 6.9, so it's pretty much neutral. I didn't know there was such a large range of pH in Illinois soil. But then again, it's been many years since I took a soil class and my mind is a sieve, so I have to admit, I don't really remember that much about it.

There's a yellow floribunda which is VERY disease-resistant, compact shape. It's "Honey Bouquet". Lots of people like Honey Bouquet, including me. Like Hoovb, the more roses I grow, the more I pay attention to bush shape. Austin Golden Cel.'s bloom is the most gorgeous yellow, but the bush is messy 5' x 6' here. Easy Going is reported to be 3' x 4' in zone 5, Honey Bouquet is more compact.

It was costly losing Eglantyne last winter, so I bought another Eglantyne gallon-size and watch its roots and size shrink in my alkaline soil - the second time! Niels in Denmark lost hundreds of roses this past winter. His soil is acidic clay in his warmer zone 5b. Since I'm zone 5a, I don't grow a rose unless it survived the winter for someone else in a similar climate and soil. If you search for Predfern, then click on his username, he listed how hundred of roses performed in his zone 5a Chicagoland. His soil is neutral or slightly acidic. He lost too many roses over the winter, and saved me money with his guidance. For a special rose like Kim Rupert's Annie L. McDowell, zone 6b, I'll winterize her in my garage.

Our Mission rose garden had a beautiful first flush of HT many of which were 3-4 feet tall.

But if you like smaller lower roses, this would be horrible.

What is wonderful for one is not for another. A good thing to remember when looking at posts about roses.

Note, I am not saying anyone that likes smaller roses is wrong, just that different people have different tastes and is one one of the many wonderful things about gardening and gardens.

Tall roses without pruning and water is different: it's wild like the Amazon jungle, all canes, and a few blooms on top, very depressive. I would need a ladder to sniff the few blooms on top. Thanks, Lori for the tip on August pruning - I did that too. Portlands are my favorite - I gave away Jacques Cartier since he was stingy, but I miss his healthy foliage and compact shape. Comte de Chambord is my favorite here.

Living in Texas, I can't even imagine what it's like to have your roses pruned by natured down to the crown. I tend to get more flowers and faster rebloom with a larger bush than a small one, but maybe that's just my climate.

Last week I had to help pick roses for a rose garden restoration. The requirements were good, healthy, bedding roses, and I was having a hard time coming up with any from my garden. Possibly the smallest good rose I grow is Frontenac - a mere 4 x 4.

With our record heat over 90's last month, I planned on giving away Scepter'd Isle and Charles Darwin so I pruned them down to 1' x 1' - and let Mother Nature waters them. They actually look better that way, no more octopus canes with droopy leaves begging for water. I did the same for Evelyn, she's cute with new buds - I'm just as happy with one bloom per day, rather than several.

Kippy is right per "It depends on what one prefers. There's really no right way or wrong way." I visit Cantigny park frequently over the past 20 years. The best spring display was when we had the most brutal winter and most snow: HTs' and Florbidundas died to the crown in Feb., followed by 3 months of spring rain, and put forth a glorious display in June, all the energy went into buds, rather than long canes.

The park looked good during 2004 drought. This year northern Illinois had a minor drought early summer, then regular rain afterwards. We had similar summer heat, and higher electric bills before. The only difference is no winter-kill this year, and most are green to the tip, or no pruning by Mother Nature.

There's nothing wrong with preferring small shrubs, but in general the larger, more mature parts of a shrub produce the best quality blooms (with stronger stems) and are better suited to withstand winter.

David Austin catalog has the below guideline for pruning, with the lower limit for dry & hot climate, and the upper limit for humid climate with rain. It stated "for mild winters, Jan. and Feb. is best. For cold winters, when spring growth just started.

English roses and repeat-shrub: cut down by 1/3 to 2/3.
Bush Roses (Hybrid teas and Floribundas) cut down harder by 1/2 to 3/4. Non-repeating shrub: leave alone, or prune no more than 1/3.

There's a picture on page 105 of David Austin's catalog which recommended pruning down to 5 sets of leaves, after the first flowering. Then prune down to 2 sets of leaves after the 2nd flowering. Also cut back the stems after flowering by 18".

Yes, I prune back the Austins in spring, removing about 1/3 of the growth, this can vary depending on the variety. Some I prune back more than others.

I know the pic you are thinking of... that's an immature Eglantyne... It's larger now, but yes it does bloom heavily for me, and it's one of my best Austins. Tall canes I prune back in spring only; deadheading is the only trimming I do in summer.

I do like the organic fertilizers, the Austins thrive on this.

I discussed with Kim Rupert as to why this past green-to-the-tip mild winter equal more diseases at the rose park, he replied, "it makes sense that the canes being killed to the ground would eliminate black spot. The spores can over winter in lesions on the canes. Freeze off the canes, and you freeze off the spores. Problem solved!"

University of Illinoios recommends pruning down to 2" on the disease-prone roses. Winter-die-back to crown can be a blessing in disguise, if the rose survives. I'm lazy in pruning, so I look forward for normal zone 5a winter with die-back to the crown. Krista, check out my Paul Neyron, I have to cut him short since he's tall and gangly. He's my favorite now.

THANK YOU, Kittymoonbeam, for that info. about David Austin's more compact: Ambridge, Tamora, and Charlotte. I wish I had bought Ambridge instead of spreading Scepter'd Isle. Cantigny rose park uses fertilizer high in phosphorus, but it doesn't work, Austins still grow tall octopus canes, with a few blooms at ends. I asked my husband to get "Sulphate of Potash" for my Austins. He called from the nusery and said, "They have pot-ash". I don't want "pot-ash", or "pot-ass" in my garden, so I told him don' get it. When he came home, I realized that he mispronounced potash. I'll try that next year, since my soil is deficient in potassium.

Hello Everyone! I'm new to OGR's and confused as to the best way to prune them. I bought three banded plants this Spring; Baron G, Le Reine and Madame Isaac. My "vision" for them was that they would be nice rounded shrubs. My "reality" is that Le Reine is already 3 x 3 and Madame Isaac is pushing 6 x 3. Normally I don't prune my roses their first Spring, but if this is their "sleep" year, I'm a little concerned about what their "Creep" and Leap" years are going to bring. How do you recommend that I prune these three roses for their first year?

Thanks,
Kerry

"All of your once-blooming Old Garden Roses (OGRs) and ramblers should have been pruned during the summer. For example,Marchesa Boccella (1842 Hybrid Perpetual) can be hard pruned,while others,like Chinas and Teas,tolerate only minimal pruning. A safe bet is to prune each rose cane back 1/3 of its length ... Also,try to avoid pruning any OGRs in the first two years. Let them get established first."

The above is right, I made a mistake of pruning Marchesa Bocella too hard the first year, and it gave me only one bloom for the entire year.

The above statement of "Avoid pruning ... let them get established" applies to wimpy own-roots as well, I don't prune mini-roses and Hybrid teas, both are wimpy as own-roots in my cold zone 5a. If I prune them too hard, they become appetizers for bunnies. However, I'm ruthless in pruning aggressive octopusy Austins like Evelyn, which throw 3 feet canes as a 2-months old baby.
This link for Southern CA mild coastal climates make it much clearer than ARS's link: "Gallica, Damask, Alba, Centifolia, and Moss roses are OGRs that only bloom in spring. Prune these right after they finish blooming; this is usually sometime in early summer. The Damask roses in particular resent hard pruning, so it is best to lightly prune flowering shoots back a few inches.

Repeat-blooming OGRs like: Portland, Bourbon, Hybrid Perpetual, Perpetual Damask, and Perpetual Moss roses are pruned at the same time as modern roses (January to February). Treat these roses as you would Hybrid Teas. Strong growing Hybrid Perpetual, roses require hard pruning to promote flowering, so plan to remove at least one half of last year's growth to produce better flowers.

Tea and China roses produce flowers on small twiggy growth and should only be lightly pruned ... We have found they respond badly to a winter pruning. We have found that pruning Tea and China roses in the hot part of summer produces quick regrowth and they don't sit around moping for years as they tend to do if you prune them in the cold part of the year...

A common complaint directed at the once-flowering Gallica roses is that they often produce very few flowers in our mild coastal regions. Gallica roses in particular require winter chilling to flower; often our mild winters are just not cold enough to produce flowers. " See the link below for Mild Coastal Southern CA tips on OGR's.

Back to Kerry's question of her 3 band-size OGRs' Baron G, La Reine, and Madame Isaac which get too big in her zone 6. When to prune? La Reine is a Hybrid Perpetual, best pruned in early spring. Madame Isaac is a Bourbon, that I don't know. Here's a caution from a previous poster:

Posted by jeff_zephyr (My Page) on Mon, Apr 20, 09 at 9:46

Thanks! Below are the ones I'm talking about. Last year, I pruned them like I would do my HT's; I cut them down to about a foot and got rid of all criss-crossing branches. They really did not like it, especially because I did it in April.
Archiduchesse Elizabeth d'Autriche
Coupe d'Hebe
Deuil de Dr. Reynaud
Dr. Bri�re
Louise Odier
Maggie
Mme. Ernest Calvat
Mrs. Yamada
Souvenir de la Malmaison
Zephirine Drouhin
Variegata di Bologna
Zemlinski's Summit Bourbon
Prince Charles

****** The best answer I found was from Olga regarding Bourbons:

Posted by olga_6b (My Page) on Tue, Apr 21, 09 at 20:15

I actually have several long cane bourbons MIP, Deuil de Dr Reynaud, Mme d'Enfert, etc. I grow them as bushes, not climbers. I prune them all to approx 5-6 feet tall canes each spring. This means taking probably 1/2 or more of the canes length. I also remove all canes that are older then 2 year old. Canes of long bourbons have short productive life. If you don't prune them out, the flower production decline in my experience. They love my treatment and reward me with hundreds of blooms each spring and repeat well too. They are all monsters and w/o prunning would take my whole yard."

**** Olga also posted her Madame Isaac picture with tons of blooms, the best I have seen ******

Thanks again,
K