I hope the new subject line is more useful in case anyone eventually wants to revisit the 'Francis Dubreuil' thread, and doesn't remember that the original subject line was about native species roses...

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg082057486302.html

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg081406439752.html

I hope this topic hasn't run its course already, but I think (hope) there may still be some new developments?

Virginia

Yes! Let us continue.

As a determined romantic, I prefer to believe that the "lost" roses we long for are among the "found" roses, or those yet-to-be-found.

Jeri

One reason I say this is because (as far as I know) nobody has put out an APB for these lost roses. If someone in Savannah or Sydney or Cannes has the original 'Francis Dubreuil', well, so what?

Even assuming that they have the correct name for their plant, would they know that the real Francis has gone missing? If someone takes a notion to google their grandmother's 'Francis Dubreuil', they'll probably just see that it's a popular rose that's offered by a lot of nurseries. Ho, hum- nothing to see here, move along.

And if they don't have the name for their grandmother's red rose, what are the chances that they'll get around to asking about what its name is? So many people don't realize that plant cultivars even HAVE names...

I don't automatically assume that a rose is lost forever simply because "rose people" have lost track of it. On the other hand, I don't need to tell you that these roses can become permanently lost if they aren't cared about and cared for.

And speaking of uncared for roses, were you and Kim able to relocate that pretty red rose you posted about earlier?

Virginia

If the "red rose" you referred to is Therese Levet, Virginia, several plans are underway to procure her. I learned a long time ago, whenever possible, not to put all of my "rose eggs" in one basket. Far too many variables usually thwart even the best laid plans. Thank you. KIm

I do tend to pay more attention to classes as a practical guide, rather than a genetic history. I assume that certain roses will do fine in my area, while others won't, and classes are the easiest place to start while considering what I should try.

I'll need more experience with growing roses to see how valid those assumptions are. With a limited budget for plants, I'm not really willing to indulge my more adventurous impulses. At some point, though, I may have some things I'll be able to trade for plants that are a bit more high-risk.

I think I would probably need to spend some time in a padded cell if I tried to figure out classifications by genetic history. When I realized that 'Hybrid Musks' have barely a nodding acquaintance with R. moschata, I pretty much gave up on that line of inquiry. When I later read about how many roses in commerce owe their reblooming abilities to varying degrees of China Rose ancestry, and really didn't have much of an idea about what makes a China Rose a China Rose... well, you see that I'm just not up to the task of ancestry classification.

My concern with classification in the case of 'Francis D', is that folks who know their roses could look at the real deal original, and say, "Nah, that couldn't be right- he looks too much like an early HT to be a true Tea Rose." But if- as seems likely- 'Francis D' had some HP ancestry, he probably did look a bit like an early HT.

I'm glad to hear you've got a few possible 'SdTL' options, but that wasn't the red rose I was asking about. At the end of the first part of this thread and the beginning of the second, Jeri jokingly offered up one of her red found roses as a candidate for the real 'Francis D', and y'all were discussing a trip out to the boonies to see if that rose were still alive... I was just nosily wondering if you went, and if it was still there.

Virginia

As more melding of the Foetida and HT genes (often nearly pure "Tea" looking types) became increasingly blended, and the public eye was sufficiently trained to expect their influence (almost WWII), Pernetiana as a class pretty much disappeared into the HT class. Now, even when presented with something obviously descended from Foetida, as evidenced by the reddish prickles on the peduncle, perhaps more fruity scented new growth and green flower parts, definitely the saturated, "strident" coloring, even particular flower scent types ("fruity" scents came out of the Foetida genes), we look at it as a Hybrid Tea. 75+ years ago we would have thought "Hybrid Foetida" or "Pernetiana" and it would have sorted itself into a that set of expectations.

Oh, the Camulos rose. No ma'am, it's been hotter than a $2 pistol and none of us are up for trodding through the dry brush and intense sun, especially with the increased humidity from the weakening former hurricane to "enjoy" rose rustling. Plans are being formulated for making it a cooler weather gathering, probably next month. There ARE limits to what we Californian "rose nuts" will put ourselves through for a "hunt"! LOL! Kim

Jeri

Could you expand a bit on #3 & #4?
You say fruity scents from foetidas. I was under the impression some Bourbons are fruity scented too.
By #4 do you mean the "apple" scent of Soleil d'or?

How does your instinctictal feeling, if I may so describes an early hybrid tea?

Is Barcelona one and if not what type of HT is she?

And did you ever find the bud wood you were seeking from 'Souv de Therese Levet'?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Virginia

PS That FD/Barcelona is gaw-juss! I guess that just goes to show how variable Barcelona's form can be- I would not have guessed that was 'Barcelona'

Kim, wondering did you get any updates from David?

When we were at the Heritage for Open Garden, I was able to get cuttings for budwood, which I brought home. Kim picked it up, and budded it the next day -- so that project is in progress.

What I was NOT able to get is good images of blooms -- just faded/dried.

Jeri

I am curious about what their rose is if it isn't 'Barcelona'. And if it doesn't act like several plants of 'Barcelona' have acted there previously, that seems like they have good reason to think it might be the real deal... or at least something other than 'Barcelona'.

Kim, you would have mentioned it if your Valencia 'FD' wasn't super-fragrant and matte-foliaged, right?

Wistfully,
Virginia

As for David, I believe that he was planning to go to Sydney for a rose conference sometime this month, so perhaps he was planning to report back afterwards?

Hopefully, he'll catch up with us sooner or later. I was hoping he'd be able to snoop around the Homebush area of Sydney to see if he could locate George Knight's old stomping grounds... a place we know that ye olde FD was present.

Fingers crossed,
Virginia

She does look a bit faded, but I hope we'll get to see her in better shape before too long. Is she going to 'take the waters' at bluegirl's misting facility in TX?

Virginia

There are too many unexplained, not dealt with variables which could easily explain Roseglen's current plant's improved performance over previous attempts. Condition of the plant when received; maturity of the plant versus less mature previous ones; seasonal differences between this attempt and previous attempts; potential differences in culture between attempts, etc, can all cause performance to vary greatly. My money still rests on Heirloom's verification their plant came from American sources. That should pretty well lock up the fact it's Barcelona. Kim

Regards David.

https://www.facebook.com/167463593279742/photos/a.753679007991528.1073741827.167463593279742/986935374665889/?type=1&theater

Fewer petals than Barcelona?

:-)

~Christopher

I hope you're enjoying your spring roses,
Virginia

Virginia thanks for the answer about foetida, I assume Kim missed that post. For some reason I never get any of his messages, if he posts. I should check with gardenweb.

I also think the non fragrant FD, at Petals des roses, couldn't be the right one. Height is the same as Barcelona, which doesn't correspond with the rather lager size of FD.

BTW, have you ever thought of contacting heritage groups in South Africa and maybe South America?

- Bob

The Facebook image really doesn't resemble Barcelona is this climate, but, as most of us have clearly seen, appearance is highly dependent upon location, location, location, just as performance is.

edit...I forgot to include, I asked Mike's permission to share this information, which he graciously gave.

Next....? Kim

Schmidts does have similarities to Leonie Lamesch, Belmont not at all

Did the Huntington ever grow 'FD' before that Beales order- I.e., was that order meant to replace a previously grown 'FD' or was that the first time it was to have been grown there?

Trying to get my chronology straight, and wondering what sort of cut-off date could usefully be used for deciding if a U.S. 'Francis' might not be 'Barcelona'. Obviously, any rose grown before 1932 couldn't be 'Barcelona, but at what point did American rose-gardeners embrace 'Barcelona' as 'FD'?

I'm also wondering about 'Barcelona' and when it was first sold in the U.S., and how well did it fare here? As far as I can tell from the HMF references, it looks like reports of growth in the 1937 Amer Rose Annual were for 1st-year plants so it seems that 1935 or 1936 would be about right, yes?

Kim, you said that when you saw the Beales rose called 'Francis D', you recognized it as 'Barcelona', so obviously that was a rose you were familiar with. How popular was 'Barcelona' at that time, and would you say it was a successful rose from the time it was introduced or was it not as popular for a while?

Virginia

Whether The Huntington had grown Francis Dubreuil previously or not, I have no idea. Perhaps if someone has access to the accession card file for the Rose Garden, they might find that information. During The Depression, the Huntington felt roses to be an expensive proposition. They bull dozed their extensive rose plantings. It wasn't until around 1943 they replanted the existing rose garden. In the 80s and 90s they were replacing a number of those WWII plants and found labels under them written in #2 pencil. If there was a Francis Dubreuil there prior to The Depression, it surely wasn't still there post Depression.

I would guess the time frame for accepting Barcelona as FD should have been between 1994-1995-ish. I have no record of when Bob handed me that plant, which I took to Clair my next day off. Perhaps it might have been 1993? Definitely within that period of time.

It's highly likely Barcelona was introduced in the US by J&P as they introduced many of Kordes roses which made it into the US. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to have been patented, so there isn't a way to research to whom the patent was assigned. Browsing early Combined Rose Lists, neither Barcelona nor Francis were listed as commercially available from 1984 until the mid nineties, which fits in well with my distribution efforts of older varieties from The Huntington. It's odd HMF isn't showing it available from any source other than the Uncommon Rose Archive, when I know Sequoia also listed it for quite a few years. It was very likely from Sequoia that Uncommon obtained it. They obtained many of their more unusual roses from Carolyn.

Barcelona first appears in the ARS annual of 1933 in the New Roses of the World section under German introductions. Yes, as you state, the first Proof of the Pudding report was in the 1937 annual and particularly the Foote report stated she didn't want to make reports on first year plants, so perhaps late 1935 to early 1936 seems likely. Ironically, neither Barcelona nor Francis ever passed through Roses of Yesterday and Today. Unfortunately, I don't have the 1960s and 70s Armstrong catalogs to be able to check through them for either rose. Barney Gardner gave those to me in the late eighties and I passed them on to Bob Edberg because of his thriving book and catalog business.

Actually, when I first saw "Francis Dubreuil", I thought, "this is NOT a 'Tea Rose'' Nothing about it says "Tea", but everything about it DOES say pre WWII HT. There were something like fourteen-hundred roses at The Huntington in those years. My interest and efforts focused on propagating, replicating, the roses the collection contained. Any and everything grown there which wasn't patented or hadn't been shared with the provision it wasn't to be distributed was fair game and little escaped my attention. The main rose garden was basically arranged by decade, which, to me, is the ideal method of laying out a botanical collection. Simply by walking the beds from one point in time to the other, you can SEE the evolution and development of modern roses. You quickly develop a feel for how things evolved decade by decade and since it contained the "milestone" roses, those which were breakthroughs and heavily used for breeding, you could trace their influence through the classes.

I focused on those varieites, which to me, were most historically and genetically important. Once those had been addressed, I worked each bed from the earliest to the most modern, attempting to propagate each rose contained in each bed. As much to provide potential replacements should anything happen to any of the roses they contained as to get interesting things out back into commerce. We'd already been through a mini "Dark Ages" where much had fallen out of commerce. Vintage was there, but not with the following it came to enjoy. Few other sources for the older moderns, what I have long called "tomorrow's OGRS", existed.

People haunted the Friends of the Huntington Plant Sales. There were many requests for specific roses grown in the collection. I worked every one of them in those years and loved every sweaty, hot, tiring minute of them. Almost anything we propagated, sold. The more varieties I could propagate, the more fun it was for me. The more fun I found it, the more the buyers responded with their excitement to mine. With that said, Barcelona grew in the 1930s bed. After I had hand carried Francis there and begun propagating it, when I saw Barcelona I KNEW something was not as it was supposed to be. Even with that many varieites, when you see one you recognize, you know it. That's when I began making noise that Francis wasn't. As Barcelona had grown there for several decades and was a commercially available plant when obtained, it was more likley Francis was the incorrect identification. I initially attributed the identification to Mr. Beales as it was common for people to submit found and unknown roses for identification. The Rose, the NRS newsletter, often contained stories of nameless roses being reidentified. And, often it was the old, "expert" nurserymen who came up with the names. In those years, there were still "old timers" who KNEW the older roses because they 'grew up' with them. You read alot about that in both Harkness and LeGrice. Old timers speaking about the idiocyncracies of their old favorites and what it took to bring each to perfection for exhibits and displays. Barcelona was of particular interest to me due to its being described as a "heat resistant" dark colored rose which didn't "blue". All dark colored roses fried here and most turned blue. I already had a garden full of them, so blue resistant and heat damage resistant made Barcelona something I HAD to grow.

Whether Barcelona was ever embraced by the general rose growing public, I couldn't say. The lack of evidence a major player put their muscle behind it would indicate to me perhaps it didn't enjoy the distribution it potentially should have. After WWII, the rush for ANYTHING new, no matter how good or bad it was, made many things disappear. But, it was available in the Los Angeles market in the mid forties, or it probably wouldn't have been there when I found it. Kim

For Belmont/Schmidt's. It will be interesting to see how Belmont changes as it matures. But Schmidt's has a lot of red on the pedioles and Belmont has not a hint of color. But time will tell. Of course with my luck Belmont will bloom pink....

I had thought that the Huntington staff was responsible for importing 'Barcelona-as Francis-Dubreuil', but it was Limberlost in the early-to-mid 1990's.

I'm concluding then that any American rose referred to as 'Francis Dubreuil' before the mid-1930's was definitely not 'Barcelona' and if before 1990 was probably not 'Barcelona'.

After that time frame, it seems unlikelty that any mention of 'Francis Dubreuil' refers to any rose besides 'Barcelona', yes?

I just wanted a chronology to help my thinking along.

The original 'FD' was sold in this country, but it's hard to gauge its popularity here, and where the roses sold were actually planted.

It doesn't seem that the original 'Francis D' was a popular Tea in CA. Some Teas don't like dry summers, and that may have been one of them... I'm supposing that 'FD' wasn't a hit in CA from something you or Jeri mentioned about it not being included in a catalog from a CA nursery that carried everything else (exaggerating slightly).

It's reasonable to suppose, though, that with so many different climates throughout the West Coast states, 'FD' may have done quite well in someone's micro-climate when it failed miserably somewhere nearby.

Historical accounts portray 'FD' as- like many Teas- slow to get established, and not every gardener had the patience to wait for a slow-growing rose to get established before they shovel-pruned it to free up space for the latest and greatest sensation.

What I would give my eyeteeth for is some historical mention of 'FD' being grown in a U.S. garden and thriving in the way that 'FD' was reported to have thrived in George Knight's garden in the Sydney suburb of Homebush.

Thanks again,
Virginia

Anyone planning a trip to Lyon anytime soon? Many famous roses hail from there, but I have no clue about the state of rose conservation thereabouts. The city of Lyon has a nice page with famous roses of Lyon- have a look at their 'FD' at the link below...

I do know that Dubreuil's business was in the Monplaisir area of Lyon- somewhere near the Place Ambroise Courtois, but it doesn't look like an area that is likely to be harboring any of Dubreuil's roses after looking at the Google map and street view of the area...

Virginia

Oh well

What differentiates a pre WW II HT, from a Tea and a post WWII HT?

I also wonder if Mr. Edberg had sensed anything fishy about the scented FD, being an OGR aficionado?

Virginia, you might ask Meilland.

As far as I remember the only mention of FD in a US catalogue was somewhere in Pennsylvania 1901/1903.

I think your time line is pretty good. Teas and Chinas are actually some of the best suited types for all but the more extreme conditions here. They generally flourish in Mediterranean and Savannah conditions, but, like most classes, don't enjoy the desert extremes. Where those classes originated, summers are generally warmer and drier with rains occurring in winter, much the same as most of California. Of course FD could have flourished in some and failed in other areas. What roses don't? It probably hated the dank, damp, too cool areas as many do; did well in the moderate zones and hated the extreme heat and aridity, though the plants themselves do well in the heat as long as they are sufficiently watered and protected from the extreme, prolonged, direct sun. The flowers fry immediately in those conditions as their petals are usually far too thin and papery. Enough so, they also generally are pretty awful where dews are too heavy, rain too frequent and drier, warmer air insufficient to dry out the buds to prevent balling. Usually, mildew is the bugaboo with them in many of our climates, though quite a few out grow it or limp through it well enough to be kept in gardens.

You're welcome, Bob! It's plant architecture; prickle and wood types; foliage type and quality, density, spacing; petal type, even coloring, sturdiness, shapes...many factors. When you've had the ability to frequently browse roses by decade and type, your eye receives wonderful training of how something is supposed to look. Prior to WWII, the average HT had thinner wood, more sparse foliage, usually thinner, lighter in substance with wispier, less sturdy growth. Of course there are always exceptions and they are usually that, exceptions. You come to expect what each plant part is supposed to look like by type, then when you see that type of part on a plant, it helps classify what that plant possibly is.

Prior to the war, Peace and its sturdier, huskier character wasn't as apparent. Plants were generally "less husky", if that makes sense. Seeing dozens of examples planted in a time line helps develop the feel for the look. Gregg Lowery does a significantly better job of stating the differences than I am able to. From his 1995 catalog, here are his examples. Notice 1995 is when Francis is in the Vintage catalog and it WAS Barcelona. He stated he received it from me. Notice, also, the overlap in habit between the Teas and HTs. There is always a melding of traits when one class leads to the next and that can be extremely confusing.

His illustrations help to show the great difference in habit caused by the Peace genes.

I seriously doubt Bob thought much about Francis Dubreuil not looking like a Tea. He saw how the HPs and Teas switched back and forth; how the earlier classes morphed into the later, from once flowering Damasks, Centifolias, etc., into Bourbons, Damask Perpetuals, etc. To him, it was the thrill of an "extinct", rare old Tea. That was all that mattered.

Yes, the only period reference for Francis Dubreuil in the US was the 1900 Dingee and Conard catalog. You will know them as Conard-Pyle, Star Roses, Star-Meilland. The folks responsible for the introduction of all the Meilland roses in the US and responsible for their ethical representation of the Meilland fortunes generated by Peace to set that empire on the financial footing necessary to build it into the worlds largest rose force. Kim

*** *** Interestingly, that is precisely the way Antique Rose Emporium described their 'Therese Levet.'

Jeri

When roses fall out of commerce, some can survive as own-root "passalongs." BUT cultivars which whine and complain, and decline to grow are quite likely to be abandoned and -- eventually -- dwindle into extinction.

I am far more interested in roses which are willing to grow strongly on their own roots, and even survive periods of drought. Those are the cultivars which will go forward, in the long haul.

Jeri

Those, still, are the roses I have to prefer. Like this one:

The success of such roses depends on gardeners and how patient and realistic they are. I think that's one reason cemetery roses have such great old varieties that you may not find elsewhere. Cemeteries are not full of gardeners holding stopwatches and saying, "Perform now, or you're outta here!" Whereas in the home garden, many rose fanciers have plenty of roses in their pot ghettos waiting for a space in the garden, so any given rose that has been planted out may not have time to hit its stride before the gardener loses patience, and calls out, "NEXT!"

I don't mean to argue that every rose variety deserves to survive, no matter how sickly or weak, but I suspect that some good varieties are now lost to us because they were occupying valuable garden space but not "earning their keep' from an early age.

Offa that soapbox now,
Virginia

That said, a rose which doesn't begin to grow canes in 6 or 7 years in the ground is going to, eventually, wear out its welcome. That's what 'Souv. de Therese Levet' did in my garden.

I just meant that many plants need more time to be wonderful than gardeners are often willing to give them, and 'Francis' and 'SdTL' are reported to be slow out of the gate, even by those who have been successful growing them.

Therese does seem to be faring better at the cemetery if you were able to coax some budwood from her. I hope she'll be a bit more ready for a photo op if you're able to take more photos of her later... Do you know how old that plant is?

I've been out in the yard replacing dirt in pots where the squirrels were planting acorns. Also fighting Japanese honeysuckle and my new archenemy, milk pea vines AKA strangleweed. Also trying to figure out how/where to dig my first rose beds, and therefore wondering why I ever though growing roses would be a good idea...

Virginia

Jeri

And which one is Barcelona. I'm leaning somewhat between 2 & 3?

Which reminds me... does anyone know why Kordes named 'Barcelona' 'Barcelona'?

Just wondering,
Virginia

Something has been niggling me about what you said on Oct 18, : "Vintage graded them both (FD & SdTL) as #3 on the Tea illustrations. Here, Barcelona, without heavy pruning,can take on that approximate habit."

When you made habit you didn't mean size did you?

The only picture of "FD/Barcelona) I found on HMF was this.

Though from what I understand, it can never reach the majestic size of FD.

I hope now that Barcelona, thanks to a misidentification, has managed to be propagated and cherished all over the world on the merits of a lost rose, can be appreciated on it's own.

It has a wonderful fragrance, lovely dark red color, small size, cold hardiness. If I'd known about it earlier, I would have gladly found a place for it in my small garden...

- Bob