The first one reminds me of Russelliana (Russel's Cottage Rose). Do the leaves smell of pine? That's supposed to be one of its characteristics.

The second one does look like pictures I've seen of Charles de Mills, but there may be other old roses with a similar appearance. Others will have much more experience with the European old roses.

Ingrid

Considering the leaves, I suspect both are David Austin varieties, although I can't name them.

Considering Malcolm's suggestions, you might check out 'Chianti' and 'Falstaff'.

Would Charles de Mills ever get as much blackspot as #2 shows?

Wow, the closeup of #1 is remarkably beautiful!

Center is totally not typical of Charles de Mills. Usually it has a 'hole' where the stamens should be. I've seen photos of ones that were deliberately starved in an attempt to produce stamens and therefore pollen, but the rest of this rose looks fine.

Austins were the first thing I thought of also.

Also, unless all of these were photographed in the spring, they're likely not Russelliana or any Gallica. Them Austins crop up in the oddest places. Our group was fooled by one at a historic church in an old mining town in the Sierra Foothills. :-)

Jeri

I was wondering about the Hybrid Bourbon 'Charles Lawson', which I think grows in Olympia, but apparently the flowers of these are too dark. How about another member of that group?

These were actually both photographed in the spring, and they never re bloomed later in the year. It is an awful lot of black-spot for the purple one, so early in the season too... I didn't even think about that.

Some photos of Charles Lawson certainly do match the form, but the color, obviously, is much to dark. I will try and do some digging in that vein though.