To quote this person "As the roses matured they became more immune to diseases (blackspot is our biggest issue here as well).It means suffering through their younger years a bit. A professor explained to me once that roses also have good fungus on their leaves that help prevent disease. By spraying with chemicals we also take down the good fungus thereby weakening the rose's ability to fight things like blackspot on its own.

This person goes on to say that in the past lime-sulfur has been used briefly - 15 minutes without spreader sticker. This has not been done in about 5 years.

The key to disease resistant plants is a healthy plant and that starts with soil. "

Also mentioned was the fact that one will narrow down the selection to roses that do well for you.

I hate to be myserious, and also hate to bother a busy person.

As I have seen blackspot in my garden, I have wondered what to do. This has been a huge help to me. Possibly my mystery person will chime in here, but if not, at least all those who read the post will read the information.

Sammy

My garden is no-spray, and I agree with "a healthy plant that starts with soil". At least, my experience backs that up. I am seeing some of my roses that have had considerable BS in the past not have as much. But, if a rose completely defoliates, I shovel prune them at that time. Just figure I can live without that heartache and can find a better rose for my garden.

This is a good topic to cover as BS affects so many of us, and I think more and more would like to go organic. And - don't laugh - but after getting over the shock of the urine post, I am seriously considering trying that. I'm wondering how to approach DH! :) Or, would the roses always need that? Should I just let them build up their own defenses?

Good topic, Sammy. Hopefully the poster you're referring to will chime in.

I have not heard Digger Dave talk about spraying with water, but I do that. In our heat I think that the water is good for the rose even if it may promote black spot.

Sammy

Trish

At this time of year as roses are slowing down, rose growing becomes rather discouraging. His message was a real boost to me, and has made me feel pretty good.

I hope it helps others of you who are struggling with "no spray" gardens.

Sammy

Niels made an interesting statement in another post on unusual roses recently. He said his Serratipetala developed BS in his garden even though Chinas don't usually have a problem with it. He attributed this to Serratipetala needing a warmer zone and not being entirely happy (strong?) in the colder zone that he's in. Just a thought.

Sherry

Donna, you are correct about watering. I have always heard that we should water so that the water will dry before night. But I am not so sure that watering in the evening here is harmful. I am trying to clear my own head and separate myths from truths, and separate rules for modern roses from rules for older roses.

Another problem for me is that I leave for work at 7:00 in the morning, and return home at about 4:00. Often it is evening before I can water. When it is so hot, I try to think about the size of feeder roots compared to the size of leaves, and where the rose takes in more water. If I spray with the hose overhead at about 7:00 or 8:00, it may dry in our heat, and if it doesn't, the rose may need more water than protection from the black spot.

This fall my roses have gotten more disease than I can remember, but the leaves have not dropped. I don't know if they have black spot or cercospora (sp). I have not watered much, but we have had so much rain. I do know that we have had powdery mildew, and that is seldom a problem.

I did not think we could kill the black spot with anything except Manzate. I thought the chemicals that I won't use anymore would just prevent, but not kill.

I believe there is a strong connection between what you are saying about grapes, and what I want to know about roses.

Now, I need to think -- and get ready for school.

Sammy

I do think that the quality of the soil will help the roses to grow well.

I haven't found that my selection of roses has narrowed down, I grow a wide range of roses.

I have watered this year with overhead sprinklers and my roses have never looked better, little to no blackspot until the weather we have had lately, with few sunny days and lots of cool, foggy and damp. I turn the sprinklers on just whenever, no difference I can see.

I have reached the resolution when you have roses, there is just gonna be some fungal disease. Even if you are a major fumigator, there is likely going to be some level of fungus, good and bad, in your garden.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/magazine%20pdfs/Baking%20soda.pdf

This is very interesting..among other things, it says BS spores can overwinter in the stems of your roses..very good info on the life cycle of BS......
http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/pdf_pubs/610.pdf

This is a cool article..about how drought stress makes plants produce more disease fighting chemicals...
http://scialert.net/pdfs/biotech/2008/273-279.pdf

sherrycola...here is a gw thread about using vinegar
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesorg/msg0117185530492.html

other recipes...
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesorg/msg0117185530492.html

The things that I have learned are that BS spores are very prolific and can overwinter in the stems, as well as mulch or fallen leaves..they can be brought in by insects, wind, new plants,or humans...so prevention has to be ongoing, unless the plant has an immune response or can be induced to create an immune response. With so many strains of BS, it seems to me that it could take years for a plant to develop an effective immune response of it's own, and that would be in a closed garden with no new additions, (to bring in a new strain), and no wind or insects !!
I guess the optimum plan of attack would be selecting BS resistant varieties, combined with spraying **just about anything*** , and good sanitation. Donna

I am still twirling that good new around in my head as I think about watering, soil, and how to handle the canes of older roses.

Donna, I just got home not too long ago, and have not had time to click on your links, but I do appreciate your sending them.

I wish I could find the scientist who said that the life of the fungal diseases has been highly exaggerated. It was posted here within the past year, but I don't remember who said it. He said the fungus dies shortly after hitting the ground and does not jump around. He explained that we are wasting our time picking out leaves and we should just dig them into the ground.

Must go now. Does anyone remember that post?

Sammy

After getting really interested and researching, and not knowing any better just put everything, Epsom Salt, Alfalfa pellets and corn meal, along with the coca cola mixture, I just dumped it all on there. Didn't seem to do much the first year, but this year there is literally no blackspot on the Las Vegas, lots of blooms (including a fall bloom!) and growth of about 1 foot. Abe looks good too, a little blackspot, but can live with that considering the absolutely beautiful flowers.

Don't know which of these, if any, amendments worked, but in my case, I didn't kill them, and am quite happy with the outcome!

My soil is enriched with loads of compost, aged manure, top dressed and mulched with leaf mold, more compost, more manure yearly, so I don't use any chemical fertilizers.

I grow a variety of roses but the majority are Austins. Some Austins fare better than others as far as BS. Some of my worst offenders are the OGRs. I have a tea rose in a container (needs to come into the garage for the winter) that has the worst BS of all. The only class that seems resistant in my garden (so far) are albas. But albas don't repeat. I have grown a couple Bucks and Canadian Explorers--if they didn't come down with BS they were infested with anthracnose.

I wish it were true that given good soil the roses would eventually fight off BS on their own, but in my experience they don't.

"Dead rose foliage may be left on the ground to decompose and add to the soil. Only living green leaves will harbor disease, and these can be covered with mulch to start the process. Don’t waste the precious organic matter your roses shed each year"

I did try to pick up the dead leaves in my garden - once. It seemed to be an impossible task as the leaves were mixed with compost, mulch, and the leaves and needles falling from nearby trees.

Most of my roses have done well so far without spraying. I have shovel-pruned the worst offenders. It may have been unwise, but I added some teas and bourbons this year. (I have read that teas get more bs here).

We have always tried to garden organically, for example - resorting to roundup only for poison ivy and some extremely aggressive trumpet vine. But in the future, I may consider spraying a small percentage of my roses, the ones I am in love with that have no substitute.

Maureen

Very interesting thread and to me it seems to point out a few things.

As a general rule it seems starting with disease resistant garden roses helps as does good soil etc. That has been my experience with roses in Los Angeles and now here in the upstate of South Carolina. My roses when not sprayed get less disease over time.

In my travels I have encountered other rose growers who suspect the same thing.

However we once again learn how regional rose growing is in the United States and what works for me does not work for others like Olga for example. And vice-a-versa.

If you are willing to try this I would suggest you do but it can take a few years to make the transition for your existing roses. I would definitely advise you speak to other rose growers in your area to learn which varieties do well in your region. And if in the end it doesn't work and you need some spraying that's okay too.

No fast hard rules. The best way to grow your roses is what works best for you.

Sammy

Oh, and I do hose the foliage off at least a few times a week. I feel it works. I was told at a patio furniture store that if I hosed the dust off frequently, I would eliminate the food that mold needs to grow, and my furniture would stay clean looking. It works, and I definitely feel it works on plants too.

Sandy

When I run into that particular situation with a rose or two I usually pick up a spray bottle of Bayer that's already mixed up, and treat the rose a couple of times. Sometimes that is all it takes to help it through a rough patch.

Sandy

Completely agree about spraying if you have to - particularly if it means you might lose the rose. Downy mildew is a good example of something you have to spray for. Nothing wrong with chemicals when other methods don't work and then backing off when you have whatever it is you are treating under control.

A very interesting branch of this sort of approach Sammy talks about is use of beneficial micro-organisms like trichoderma and mycorrhizae. It helps roses becomming more restistant to blackspot, and growing roots. I am convinced that seaweed and kelp help strengthening roses too. This type of gardening can really show results after a few seasons.

Sammy

My neighborhood is a "gentrifying" Sixties subdivision, surrounded by developments of new McMansions. So, in addition to Mosquito spray trucks, we have toxin-drift from rich rednecks whose lawns are automatically and continually misted with poison (more, I suspect, from a desire to have every fancy feature than from fear of West Nile). To make matters worse, we're on top of an old Cotton field, and so the soil structure has been compromised by deep-plowing. Too, there is probably residue from Arsenic (to control Boll Weevil in the early Twentieth Century) and DDT. There may be residue from pre-1965 herbicides, too. And the ground is wet enough that Crayfish castles pop up nearly everywhere (at least there's SOMETHING aerating our soil).

Of course, around a 44yo. ranch house, there's also the usual residue of termite poisons, residual residential herbicides, lead paints, organochlorines from house-washing....

Do we have a chance in 'H-word place' (cussing is not allowed in Madison) of developing/cultivating healthy, microbe-rich soil here? Healthy enough to make Organic Rose Gardening possible?

Nothing is growing really well here: not one thing, except for 'Screening Bamboo' and Rosa Laevigata. I'd just let it slide, except that this is an intensely materialistic culture, and how one's home looks is pretty much the most important thing in the world. Right now, our scraggly plants are devaluing us as people.

Should I forget about Mother Nature and embrace 'Better Living Through Chemicals'? Or should I just scrap all the roses but Cherokee, and stick to Bamboo and Boxwood?

BTW, I suspect that the success of the 'Goldwater' dude, and the one who sprayed with plain water, is dependent upon temperatures over 90 degrees fahrenheit. That may be what prevents the moisture from encouraging Blackspot. And did the 'plain water' dude spray with chlorinated water?

Is there a way that you can have someone from the city look at your property to find out exactly what the contamination is?

We have termite poison. I think everyone here does, and probably in Mississippi too. Many of us also have the other contaminates, but I have always presumed that they have been washed down through and out the soil over a period of so many years.

I don't have raised beds, but I put in 3 bags of store bought soil with every plant. Plants that we eat are in whiskey half barrels or metal pots that are that size.

You don't mention that you love to garden.
Why don't you hire a service to put in sod so your grass looks nice, and get someone to put in some nice plants that do not need to be sprayed?

I don't quite understand your last paragraph.

Sammy