Mine didn't.

Mine is actually doing pretty good all things considered. BUT she is first in line for the gray water system for extra water and she only blooms a few times a year.

On the other hand, my band of Madame Antoine Mari is really taking off now that she is in the ground.

I had to smile at the wordiness of my post and then hoovb's succinct answer, which however told me all I needed to know. Kippy, your comments about only blooming a few times a year pretty well sealed the deal, especially when you added how well your MAM is doing, since that's exactly the rose I'll put there instead. Mine from ARE is much bigger than a band so I'm really excited. Thank you for the prompt replies. Poor RdV is history as soon as that spot is shady enough to work in. When grown in the right place, she is soooo beautiful......but these are hard times.

Ingrid

I don't know if lack of water is the problem. I'm about to SP mine and put Twilight Zone in it's place. Stingy with blooms and horrible growth habit. No thanks.

Extreme arid heat; extreme sun even with "filtered shade"; and extreme alkalinity doomed her to extinction no matter what efforts I made on her behalf. IF I mulched with acidic material, amended her root zone with copious peat moss, fed her Ironite and soil sulfur and watered the daylights out of her, she grew with the appropriate colored foliage. I adored her peppery scented soft growth and flowering tissues and every once in a very infrequent while (always in cool, damp springs or falls) I got to actually see a "purple" flower. MOST often, the plant was rangy, chlorotic, fried new growth tips and the flowers either failed to open properly or were pale lilac to white and never lasted a full day in the intensity of the sun and heat in Newhall. I HAD to have the rose Graham Thomas proclaimed the "bluest" of all roses. Perhaps in Britain and their colder, wetter, foggier, more benign to "The Queen's" tastes weather. But definitely not in my climate and conditions. I eventually shovel pruned her and never looked back. There are just too many other, newer, healthier, easier to grow and much more enjoyable "purple" roses now for me to waste my time on her. Blue for You is a perfect case in point and even that can be an issue with extreme heat. The plant is totally fine, but the petals, as virtually all highly scented flowers do, can fry pretty quickly in extreme conditions, but it makes so many of the flowers, so willingly and so reliably, I don't care. Kim

It makes me sad to see the queen banished. She does pretty well hereabouts, and I plan to try (again) to get a cutting to root for me.

She's the only HP I've ever actually met... I'm not sure if any others will tolerate our conditions here?

Virginia

Gorgeous rose in England. I blame our alkaline soil, but it is completely lovely in Jon of Wessex's chalk-based garden and at Mottisfont just a few miles away. I tried for years, and it was always chlorotic.

I've decided that I will be happier if I grow roses that are happy.

Rosefolly

Okay, now I'm ueber convinced. My poor rose has been put out of its misery and I've saved a ton of water on what would have been an exercise in futility. Kim, no one can ever say you didn't try. Blue for You is beautiful and I'll consider it if Heirloom fails to work out in its new, shadier location. I don't have room or water for another purple rose unless Young Lycidas continues to drive me crazy by doing absolutely nothing. Even then I may just have one less rose, given our water problems. Thanks so much, everyone.

Virginia, I'm afraid most HP's may disappoint you. Many are rather ungainly bushes with less than enthusiastic blooming power compared to the teas and chinas that you and I can grow much more successfully.

Ingrid

Ingrid, you were right, I think, to make that decision.

RdV would have been WONDERFUL in my climate -- if only I did not have highly alkaline soil/water.

When I was careful to amend, amend, amend ... she could be lovely. Even so, I think her delicate blooms would not be up to desert heat and air.

Jeri

After reading all these posts, I'm taking my poor excuse for a rose out too!

I think this rose was the single most unhappy rose I've ever seen in my garden. It was kind of pathetic, actually.

It's a pity because I would love to have it.

I plan on seeing how well RdV roots, even after this discussion. It it takes, it will put it in the shade of a fir tree where the neighbors over well water. Will be interesting to see how differently it reacts there. I did scatter some acid plant potting soil over mine.

My mom has two growing about a mile and a half or so from the beach. One is in more sun and seems to be a happier plant that as of yet hasn't shown signs of chlorosis and has had some lovely purple blooms along with a few hot pink ones. The more shaded plant exhibited just the peppery smell on the new growth Kim mentioned this past weekend. It had faintly yellowed foliage this summer at one point, but it shed those leaves and it looks quite good now. The blooms are darker for longer because of the shade, but they are less frequent. Both were from ARE and are nearly thornless. I'd give RdV a shot for sure, Kippy.

Jay

I'm told that RdV can do well in Sacramento. In the cemetery, it's utterly miserable and stunted, and produces only a few pale flowers a year. It was a purchased rose - spent big bucks at a conference auction to buy a virus-indexed one that was supposed to be very strong. Since it's doing so poorly, and is not a found rose, this thread has convinced me to remove it from our collection.

I've seen it in England, too, where it's truly beautiful. Don't judge all HPs by this one. Grandmother's Hat, Barbara's Pasture Rose, Benny Lopez, Old Town Novato, and Baronne Prevost are among many that are beautiful and vigorous. Location makes such a difference.
Anita

This thread is a perfect example of how shared information on this forum is invaluable. I think we've pretty well established that the beautiful RdV is a dog in some places and sublime in others, and those of us in the "dog" areas don't need to waste time and precious water trying to achieve the impossible. It says a lot that Anita's pedigreed and pricey plant, with cooler winters no less, didn't make the grade. Kippy, I hope your cuttings take and will prove to be the exception to the rule. For the rest of us, we just don't happen to garden near Mottisfont.

Ingrid

It says not only much about location, but GENETICS and whether something is decent in as many locations own root as it might be budded. More than likely, what you're seeing in Britain is not only location, climate and soil, but also DECENT roots due to being budded. Generally, own root production in Europe is more of a Mediterranean or savannah climate phenomenon. Colder, wetter, shorter season climates usually fail miserably at own root production. They require heat and sun to push, something the climates which favor Reine des Violettes can't sufficiently provide. Kim

Ingrid,
So sorry to hear you are losing another rose due to climate! IâÂÂve been thinking of you and all of CA while IâÂÂve been emptying shop vac full after shop vac full of water from our currently flooding basement. I sure wish I could send some your way rather than just dumping it on our already overly saturated land. Seems like such a waste when itâÂÂs so desperately needed elsewhere. WeâÂÂve probably had more rain since Saturday than you have total in the past couple of years.
Virginia,
Our climates are probably very similar (hot, humid), but not sure about our soil (mine is acidic, red clay). Most of my OGRs are only a year or two old, so jury is still out, but IâÂÂm happy with the HPs IâÂÂve tried. I have Reine des Violettes (new for me this spring from ARE), Paul Neyron and Marchesa Boccella (classified HP or Portland?), and they are all doing well in full sun. They havenâÂÂt bloomed as heavily as most of my teas, but do give me some blooms monthly. Marchesa, in her second year here, has been the best bloomer of the three as far as quantity and frequency. She's an absolute beauty and smells wonderful. Paul Neyron did blackspot some this summer (a very bad year for blackspot in general here), but didnâÂÂt last year...so not sure how he will do with that long term. I added Pulich Children a couple of months ago. Although it was sold as a 1 gallon, it was more the size of a band and is working on growing rather than blooming. It arrived with a few leaves and they were spotted, but new growth has been okay so far.

Marchesa Boccella

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It will be interesting Ingrid! My current plant is doing well and I have no plans to remove. She gets a lot of heat being south facing but extra gray water as well (probably too alkaline as well)

I'm too tired now but am looking forward to join in the discussion. Good, great thread, Ingrid! cheers, bart

Melissa. I wish you would do a tour of your garden and discuss how you manage your plants

I hope once my roses are established I can water the majority only enough to keep alive but dormant for the hot any driest months. I am not going to expect them to bloom for a few of the hottest months

Melissa, your experience is fascinating, since it seems to be going against the norm. I wonder whether your winter temperatures are cooler than ours which would explain your success with RdV. I tried Albert de Dalmas early on but both plants of it deteriorated quickly. As I've mentioned many times, the solar radiation on my property is very intense, and lately many of my plants have barely survived even with water. My poor soil doesn't help, either. There are places where the granite doesn't only form large boulders but is also present under a thin layer of garden soil. It would be interesting to see what would happen to my roses if I tried your technique, but since they're used to being watered regularly it really wouldn't be a fair test.

Pat, I know Paul Neyron is a HP, but frankly I've never known that Marchesa Bocella is also classified as such. I've always thought of it as a Portland, or some other category, but never HP. Your picture of it is gorgeous. It certainly has that old rose look, quite different from a tea rose. I seem to vaguely recall that RdV also has some controversy surrounding its classification.

Kippy, even with abundant water my roses haven't bloomed for a few of the hottest months. I imagine with sparse water they might bloom at the most 3-4 months, assuming good winter rain.

Ingrid

Ingrid I really think that the first paragraph of the your reply is the reason for the difference in performane. Not only are my high temps and yours very different I have real sandy clay loam soil and you have fast draining grit. I am not sure what would work best for you. But I think I would experiement with cheap icebergs and see what worke . Like mixing clay kitty litter in a big pot with your DG soil or making some type of raised bed or large insulated pot and see if you can get better results with all the water you currently are using.

Pat your Marchesa Boccella is gorgeous! We had that rain too. Luckily my basement doesn't flood. But since my yard is all dug up, it's a sea of mud.

I too wonder about the genetics. My RdV is from Chamblees. I know people rave about Chamblees, but I ordered from them once and was not happy with the roses. 4 of the nine didn't make it through one year. I'm not even sure my RdV is really RdV. Except for the fact that it never blooms and is always chlorotic.

Maybe some of you remember me posting about RdV. I am still very puzzled by this rose and it is still on trial in my garden. I have 3 plants of it. The oldest two both behaved the same way: vigorous as plants, growing enthusiastically, producing many buds, of which only a few opened very poorly.I moved one to what I hope might come close to counting as "good" soil; the other is for now in a pot, but I intend to plant it out .The 3rd, newest one I planted in a place where other roses do very well, so I'm hoping that that is fairly decent soil, too.No chlorosis problems in my fairly alkaline soil. I think the problem may be just overly poor ,shallow soil,but I have to wait and see. I don't water established roses ,and what soil I do have is clay. This is Italy,so the climate would be called Meditteranean,even though it's changed quite a bit in these last 10 years...bart

Ingrid, I thought Marchesa was a Portland, too, but HMF, ARE and RVR all list her as HP, so who knows. Whatever she is, I do like her a lot.
Buford, IâÂÂve been following your posts about the yard âÂÂdigâ and can imagine itâÂÂs a muddy mess with all these storms. Mine is a gushy nightmare even without being dug up. Thank goodness I havenâÂÂt put out my fall seeds yet or my neighbors downhill would be growing some pretty poppies and stock next year :) And evidently all the work weâÂÂve done to correct the basement flooding issue hasnâÂÂt worked! Our conditions should be about the same, so I think Marchesa would do well for you and maybe a RdV from a different source would do better, as well. Mine from ARE is the thornless one. I top dressed her with manure and mulched with pine straw when I planted her, but havenâÂÂt given her any special treatment. Her foliage has been good, and she has been a better bloomer than I expected for a first year rose with questionable rebloom reports from others. SheâÂÂs not lighting the world on fire with her prolific blooming by any means, but after her spring flush, she has given me a handful of beautiful, smelly purple blooms about once a month. I was worried about planting her in full sun, but didnâÂÂt have a part shade spot available. SheâÂÂs handled the sun just fine and maybe thatâÂÂs what is helping her to rebloom. No radiated heat in her spot like Ingrid has, though, and different soil, plenty of rainfall & humidity that IngridâÂÂs climate doesnâÂÂt give her either.

Pat, out of curiosity, do your soil and water tend more toward acidic or alkalinity? I'm glad RdV is doing what she's supposed to for you. Someone has to get to enjoy her doing well! Kim

Kim,
I don't know about my water, but my soil is definitely acidic red clay. I've never had it tested to see the exact ph, but no matter how much I try to amend, my hydrangeas are always bluer than blue...

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Beautiful Hydrangeas, Mine are always blue too (even the ones that are supposed to stay pink) I do have one that is kind of purplish. I have lots of pine trees and azaleas also do well here, so I just accept that I have acid soil. I've never tested it.

The guys spent all day Monday pounding down the loose dirt and the big pile of dirt so it wouldn't wash away, but I still have mud. They were back today, slipping and sliding.

I would like to try a good RdV, mine has thorns, which is another reason I don't think it's a good one. And I will add Marchess to my list. I have lots of room now, LOL.

Thanks, Pat. I know that stuff well! My parents used to get so frustrated with me for getting covered with it as a child. We'd make "bricks" out of it and let them dry in the sun to make "forts" for play. The combination of your humidity, higher rainfall, acidic soil all combine to permit RdV to perform well, just as they do to allow "Sun Azaleas" and the hydrangeas to perform as they do. We have "sun azaleas" here and the only places they really perform in the southern end of California is in the drippier, damper, foggier, cooler coastal communities. Move them up in elevation or more inland and they demand increasing shade, increasing irrigation and demonstrate increasing "anger" until they simply turn yellow/brown and die.

Many of the RdV I've seen over the years have thrown the occasional prickly cane. Double White Banksiae is frequently prickly. Renae threw a prickly, single sport for Burling. Prickles are the "default" in roses. For one NOT to have them is the exception. Kim

Yea, Kim, that red doesn't wash out! My husband is a high school teacher and coaches their softball team. He brings home those white uniforms for me to try to "de-stain". Clorox doesn't phase it...Iron Out rust remover is the only thing that works. And yes, if you dig carefully, not only can you make bricks out of it, but pretty good "terra cotta" pots, as well :)
Buford, I have a new found love of the fragrant, deciduous azaleas. Just started adding some a couple of years ago and would strongly recommend them if you don't already grow some.

Interesting thread, and I don't mean to hijack, but since Marchesa Boccella has been brought up a few times...Is it the same as Jacques Cartier, or does that depend on which nursery you get it from? Are we using the names synonymously?
-Chris

Pat, I am thinking of adding some. I have to replant the 'wild' hill in my yard and want to use only natives. There is a nursery in Fayetteville GA that specializes in natives for the SE and they have a lot of native azaleas.

Garden Web ate my last reply, so I'll try again.

Pat, your Marchesa is lovely- a sight for sore eyes whether she's a Portland or an HP...

I did notice that you're in zone 7, so while our summers are probably equally awful, you do get those chill hours that fruit trees and many OGR's seem to need to bloom and prosper. The soil here is acidic and loamy.

As a beginner with roses, I'm mostly sticking to Teas, HT's, HM's, Chinas, Polyanthas and Floribundas (I haven't forgotten your beautiful 'Gruss an Aachen' photos!) as prescribed. I do have a test plant of 'Cardinal de Richelieu' that I'm hoping to learn from whether it prospers or not.

I do like the look of many HP's, and RdV is a lovely thing hereabouts. The RdV I've tried to root cuttings from (and it occurs to me that maybe I did succeed?) grows in a tangle of runaway 'Dorothy Perkins', Japanese Honeysuckle, tall grass and blackberry bushes and lives on rainwater and dappled sunlight. Her foliage is lovely, and her blooms are fairly rare, but worth waiting for. My guess is she'd bloom more in better conditions, but I'd never expect a queen to be a "bloom machine". :>)

Thanks for your photos and encouragement/enabling,
Virginia

Chris, current thinking (from rec.gardens.roses days) is that there are two distinct cultivars that are almost hopelessly confused in commerce. One is shorter, more tender, and more floriferous. The other is a horse that blooms in flushes.