What I remember from reading about lots of them is that the vast majority of first-generation Wichuranas are once-blooming. It's the second-generation ones which still maintain the species' growth habits that may offer rebloom.

Many of the first-generation Wichurana ramblers had a China or Tea parent. Some second-generation ones were bred again with a China or Tea, some were bred with another rambler which also had a China or Tea ancestor, some with Noisettes which were already repeat-blooming, and others were simply (presumably self-) "seedlings of" a first-generation Wichurana rambler.

In any case, the repeat-blooming ones were able to get reblooming genes from both parents (even if the parents themselves were once-blooming). For example, look at Paul Barden's 'Mel's Heritage'. It maintains the general habit of the Wichurana ramblers, but because it's second-generation and has reblooming ancestors behind both parents, it will bloom more than once. One parent was 'Crepuscule', which reblooms. The other parent was once-blooming, from a cross between 'R. wichurana' and 'Floradora', a Floribunda.

:-)

~Christopher

Oh, and one other possible difference. I remember reading that 'R. luciae' and 'R. wichurana' were both considered the same species at one time, and that "Wichurana Ramblers" bred by some people were actually "Luciae Ramblers". Perhaps this also accounts for differences between them -- maybe one species is more easily genetically coaxed into "scattered rebloom" than the other.

:-)

~Christopher

Like the Banksiaes, climate can also affect how long and how often they flower. Along the coast, Banksiae can flower for many months. Move inland or up in elevation where the "spring conditions" disappear faster and the bloom period gets cut much shorter, much faster. I live on the cusp of inland heat, but in some years when we have cool, then HOT and back to cool, I can experience "repeat" on them. Wichurana and other 'species hybrids' can also do similarly.

Some inherited more repeat than others and can rebloom whether the conditions trigger them to or not. Some will achieve repeat with maturity. Silver Moon is once flowering in most places. When I grew it in Newhall, it was a free standing mountain, attaining an enormous size. In the average year, I experienced repeat flowering on that plant. The one I sent cuttings home with you from was rooted from that plant.

There may be actual differences between the Luciae and Wichurana genes. I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would imagine both should help provide repeat in the appropriate climates and conditions. 0-47-19 will occasionally "repeat" when the weather here varies greatly. When it simply gets hot and stays there, it stops. You may experience longer flowering periods or even "repeat" from the 0-47-19Mutabilis I gave you. That one should definitely have pollen pimped on it. I'd use the better Teas, floribundas and minis you grow to see what you can coax from it. I don't remember, but did I also send pieces of Centre Stage home with you? That is ONE thorny monster! HMF says it gets 2' tall, and perhaps it does, but it's also indeterminate, so it just keeps creeping along until it hits something to force it upward. That's why I budded it to a 3' whip so it would create a shorter weeper so I could work it without having to lay on the ground among its "armature". It repeats well, too.

Remember that New Dawn sported from Dr. VanFleet, so the repeat genes were definitely inherited and are just looking for a way to "escape". Crossing 0-47-19 with dwarf, repeat flowering roses provided Mr. Moore with about 25% dwarf, nearly continuous flowering plants. The rest ran the gamut from ginormous, once flowering types to shorter climbers and shrubs with and without repeat.

You should root the 0-47-19Mutabilis and try it for root stock. I know it roots like Bermuda grass, and grows beautifully own root. The pieces you received were from the original seedling which has never even been pollinated on, much less budded, so it stands as great a possibility of being RMV free as anything. Kim

This post was edited by roseseek on Thu, Oct 23, 14 at 14:48

I have nothing to add except that I understand the modern climber Sombreuil (aka Colonial White) is thought to be a hybrid wichurana, I believe because of its looks and habit - no one seems to have any info on its actual parents.

My Sombreuil has grown 3 1/2 stories up my house, and blooms 11-12 months of the year here.

Jackie

I just wrote a whole long response that I don't feel like repeating right now that somehow got lost. but here is an interesting site about Barbier Ramblers that you will enjoy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Babier Ramblers

C-Sombreuil

the back sides of all three leaves

Lower leaf removed to show stipules

Hooks, thorns, prickles, ribs AKA the backs of the leaflets

Kippy, in addition to the things I mentioned before (# generations removed from the species, and whether it was 'R. wichurana' or 'R. luciae'), there was one more thing I didn't mention -- the genetics of the other parent. 'Dr. W. Van Fleet' had a HT as one parent, and (in effect) a Hybrid Wichurana Rambler (rather than the species itself) as the other parent. The result was a triploid -- 1N from the 'R. wichurana' X 'Safrano' seed parent, and 2N from 'Souvenir du President Carnot' pollen parent. So that means that it was only 1/6 'R. wichurana', and this probably explains why it doesn't have the lax habit associated with the species.

When I searched through those roses listed as "Hybrid WIchurana", I found that many others of the stiffer and more upright habit similarly have the species further back in ancestry, and/or were bred from roses which were triploid or tetraploid -- and thus had a larger genetic contribution to the resulting offspring. 'New Dawn' and its offspring are also in the background of many of the more modern HTs -- in addition to increased vigor, I think they (and others of Wichurana descent) were largely responsible for the glossy leaves that are found in many of today's HTs.

:-)

~Christopher

Thank you for the link MendocinoRoses! I have read bits and pieces about the Barbier roses and nursery in some of my books, but nice to see with photos and put together like this page. I also like the idea that they grew so many other plants and here I am adding their ramblers to a lot that grows so much food. The other fence row project is also next to a significant fruit grower but if it all comes together I can explain that later.

Kim, I did not get a Silver Moon from you did I? I do not remember seeing Centre Stage when visiting. I can see from the HMF photos that it does look like it might make a good ankle grabber.

Is the apple scent linked to the R. Luciae background?

Christopher, do you think the Barbiers used a second generation Hybrid Wichuraiana and but it is listed as though a first?

Jackie, how funny, as I was getting the "B" leaf I realized Sombreuil was just behind me and would be interesting to compare.

Kippy, I can't say for sure, since I have read very little about them, and haven't seen them in-person. I was offering insight as to why some "Hybrid Wichurana Ramblers" are stiffer and more upright, and may repeat-bloom, while others are long and lax once-bloomers (or just "occasional repeat" bloomers).

The short version is that those which are genetically closer to the original species will more likely display more of the traits of that species. So it seems the first-generation crosses with the species and another diploid garden rose will more dependably maintain the lax habit associated with 'R. wichurana' and 'R. luciae'.

But many roses considered "Hybrid Wichurana Ramblers" contain far less genetically of the species, and so it seems reasonable to expect that fewer of its traits will be apparent. This will also be true when the other parent was derived from 'R. multiflora', and the result is something in between the habits of these two different types of ramblers.

:-)

~Christopher

Perhaps I didn't send you home with one, Kippy, but it was definitely on my "to send" list. Sorry about that! I have it if you'd like cuttings. It roots EXTREMELY easily. As does Centre Stage. I have a one gallon, own root plant of Centre Stage if you'd like it. I will likely be driving up to Jeri's next week to pick up bud wood she's bringing home. Perhaps we can make another exchange then? Kim

Sounds like a plan Kim

Gather your persimmon orders too, Fuyu and Hachiya :)

Should I take Noelle Nabonnand and Gen Schablikine with me for a ride? They might have a bud or two that can be slipped off and on to rootstock (or I can slip them off and take the buds-not enough on Noelle for a cutting. The General has lots of wire thin canes so one can surely vanish with out him noticing too much)

Christopher, I think it would be interesting to cross the Barbiers with teas again to see what happens. I need a 'Papa Gontier' for Alex Girault and I can see what doubling up does. I do have 'Rainbow' if I don't get a Papa G before I have blooms.

Thank you, Kippy, but I don't have enough stocks to do more than I'm expecting. I will press several "throw away" seedlings into service to handle what Jeri returns with. You should easily be able to use Rainbow instead of Papa Gontier. Most often, mutations are only "skin deep", though occasionally they extend deeper into the genetics. Kim

Pam, thanks so much for the link to the Barbier ramblers. It's a wonderful article with great pictures, including many ramblers not well-known and perhaps not available here. I fell in love with Edmond Proust, my favorite of all the ones shown, with the runner-up probably being Francois Juranville. This article is a great source of information, all gathered in one place, of the Barbier family of roses.

Ingrid

Not much to add, but I grow Edmond Proust & Francois Juranville. I love Edmond Proust-healthy, hardy, prolific bloomer, easy to train. This year there was scattered rebloom, something I haven't seen with this rose before.
I love Francois Juranville too but it was a busy summer & I can't remember how he did.

Thank you Altorama.

Francois Juranville is on the wish list

I'm glad you liked the article Ingrid. Edmond Proust is a beautiful rose.