As some of you might know, I really like the Barbier Ramblers and some other of the Hybrid Wichurana ramblers.

But, why are some listed as only once blooming and others some repeat? Is it the Hybrid Wichurana seed or the pollen parent that added that habit? It seems many have Teas as the pollen parent.

I have also noticed that there are two different Hybrid Wichuranas one being from China and the other Japan (?) how are they different? Is one more likely to have some fall rebloom and be more lax and the other stiffer and no rebloom? Some seem to suffer more from rust than others, makes me wonder if that is from the pollen or the seed parent. From reading descriptions, that is what it appears to me but what do I know....

What are the features of Hybrid Wichurana plants that tell what they are when trying to identify them?

I am working on my wall-o-thorns and am working with someone who has an ideal situation for almost block long row of ramblers. I want to make sure I am picking the best plants for my area and understanding the differences.

I am going to try and remember to bring home a couple of leaves and scan to add to this post tonight.

Many of the first-generation Wichurana ramblers had a China or Tea parent. Some second-generation ones were bred again with a China or Tea, some were bred with another rambler which also had a China or Tea ancestor, some with Noisettes which were already repeat-blooming, and others were simply (presumably self-) "seedlings of" a first-generation Wichurana rambler.

In any case, the repeat-blooming ones were able to get reblooming genes from both parents (even if the parents themselves were once-blooming). For example, look at Paul Barden's 'Mel's Heritage'. It maintains the general habit of the Wichurana ramblers, but because it's second-generation and has reblooming ancestors behind both parents, it will bloom more than once. One parent was 'Crepuscule', which reblooms. The other parent was once-blooming, from a cross between 'R. wichurana' and 'Floradora', a Floribunda.

:-)

~Christopher

:-)

~Christopher

coast

faster

Some inherited more repeat than others and can rebloom whether the conditions trigger them to or not. Some will achieve repeat with maturity. Silver Moon is once flowering in most places. When I grew it in Newhall, it was a free standing mountain, attaining an enormous size. In the average year, I experienced repeat flowering on that plant. The one I sent cuttings home with you from was rooted from that plant.

There may be actual differences between the Luciae and Wichurana genes. I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would imagine both should help provide repeat in the appropriate climates and conditions. 0-47-19 will occasionally "repeat" when the weather here varies greatly. When it simply gets hot and stays there, it stops. You may experience longer flowering periods or even "repeat" from the 0-47-19Mutabilis I gave you. That one should definitely have pollen pimped on it. I'd use the better Teas, floribundas and minis you grow to see what you can coax from it. I don't remember, but did I also send pieces of Centre Stage home with you? That is ONE thorny monster! HMF says it gets 2' tall, and perhaps it does, but it's also indeterminate, so it just keeps creeping along until it hits something to force it upward. That's why I budded it to a 3' whip so it would create a shorter weeper so I could work it without having to lay on the ground among its "armature". It repeats well, too.

Remember that New Dawn sported from Dr. VanFleet, so the repeat genes were definitely inherited and are just looking for a way to "escape". Crossing 0-47-19 with dwarf, repeat flowering roses provided Mr. Moore with about 25% dwarf, nearly continuous flowering plants. The rest ran the gamut from ginormous, once flowering types to shorter climbers and shrubs with and without repeat.

You should root the 0-47-19Mutabilis and try it for root stock. I know it roots like Bermuda grass, and grows beautifully own root. The pieces you received were from the original seedling which has never even been pollinated on, much less budded, so it stands as great a possibility of being RMV free as anything. Kim

My Sombreuil has grown 3 1/2 stories up my house, and blooms 11-12 months of the year here.

Jackie

A is a Barbier Rose

B is a mystery rose

C (not labeled) is Sombreuil (the climber not the tea)

When I searched through those roses listed as "Hybrid WIchurana", I found that many others of the stiffer and more upright habit similarly have the species further back in ancestry, and/or were bred from roses which were triploid or tetraploid -- and thus had a larger genetic contribution to the resulting offspring. 'New Dawn' and its offspring are also in the background of many of the more modern HTs -- in addition to increased vigor, I think they (and others of Wichurana descent) were largely responsible for the glossy leaves that are found in many of today's HTs.

:-)

~Christopher

Kim, I did not get a Silver Moon from you did I? I do not remember seeing Centre Stage when visiting. I can see from the HMF photos that it does look like it might make a good ankle grabber.

Is the apple scent linked to the R. Luciae background?

Christopher, do you think the Barbiers used a second generation Hybrid Wichuraiana and but it is listed as though a first?

Jackie, how funny, as I was getting the "B" leaf I realized Sombreuil was just behind me and would be interesting to compare.

The short version is that those which are genetically closer to the original species will more likely display more of the traits of that species. So it seems the first-generation crosses with the species and another diploid garden rose will more dependably maintain the lax habit associated with 'R. wichurana' and 'R. luciae'.

But many roses considered "Hybrid Wichurana Ramblers" contain far less genetically of the species, and so it seems reasonable to expect that fewer of its traits will be apparent. This will also be true when the other parent was derived from 'R. multiflora', and the result is something in between the habits of these two different types of ramblers.

:-)

~Christopher