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Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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Posted by aimeekitty zone 9 (SW 18) socal (My Page) on Mon, Oct 26, 09 at 14:42
| Thanks again for all the invaluable help so far! I'm learning a lot!
So,.. previously (before we moved in) I thought the front yard would be the sunniest part of our yard since it's western facing,,...
however, we moved in this weekend, and I watched the sun in the yards throughout the day...
The porch-area of the front yard (where I want to put a couple shrub roses and a climbing rose)..., while western facing, it probably only gets a couple hours of sun a day. Most of the day the house itself is shading it. Even at 3pm a good part of the area I want to stick roses (including a climber) is shaded by the house itself.
My choices for this area were "Reine des Violettes", "Compte de Chambord" and "Duchesse de Brabant" for the shrubs and then "cl. Eden" for climbing the porch arches.
Should I reconsider these due to it being shadier than I thought? (if so, does anyone have suggestions to what I should use instead that has a similar look and will do well in my area?)
I live in zone 9-10 near the antelope valley (southern california). Zone 18 according to Sunset Western
Advice, please...? Much thanks, again! |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: what DA says regarding shady positions...
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| Some other ones I was considering based on Austin's catalog recommending these for " shady positions": But I'm not sure how these do in my zone and how good the rebloom is. for the climber....
"james galway" cl
Brother Cadfael cl
cl st. swithun for the shrubs:
Jude the Obscure
geoff hamilton
queen of denmark
wildeve |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| I do not know any of the roses you listed, but in general, mostly shady places aren't good for roses. While the plant will probably live, the flowering might be greatly decreased and there will often be greater disease problems. Why not plant some hydrangeas out in front? Annabelle is an old favorite that is very showy in bloom (white) and blooms for a long period. Or there are many newer hydrangeas if you prefer pinks or blues. Just a thought. Kate |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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Even in Antelope Valley, roses will need more than just a couple of hours of sun.
To be clear -- they won't DIE there. They just won't bloom much. If you were talking about a half-day of sun -- mabye 4 hours or so -- morning sun and afternoon shade, or morning shade and afternoon sun -- that probably would work.
I even do that, here at the coast.
And to be truthful, in really hot weather, a half-day of CA sun in plenty. :-)
But, two hours won't cut it. Not even in your desert climate. And that's TOUGH.
I have a place sort of like that, and we've tried EVERYTHING there.
It gets about 1 hour of sun, which in the summer is right at noon, and sometimes blistering hot.
The only thing that's ever worked really well there is, of all things, "Angel Wing" begonias. Oh, yeah, and one lovely tuberous begonia. Jeri |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| don't hydrangeas prefer more water though? (I do love hydrangeas...!) Thanks you guys! Maybe I'll try a little and see how it goes. I can always move them, I guess? |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| Love hydrangeas, too. But yeah, they like water, and prefer a rather acidic environment. If you can grow them, they will be pink. Jeri |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| Oooh nice to know about the begonias, I have a place like that too - shade in the morning, sun in the hottest part of the day, then shade again. We have tried a lot of things there with no success, I was thinking the only thing I was going to be able to grow there was cement. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| Te best rose for shade I have ever found is the hybrid musk Robin Hood. I have planted in several gardens, clients as well as my own, and he performs very well. In general hybrid musks do all right in the shade, but most still need about 4 hours. I'd try Robin Hood first. If he can't make it, no one can. Camellias would be better than hydrangeas, tho they too want water and some acidity. My mother had glorious camellias growing under Calif live oaks. They loved the oak leaf mulch. You could also try the oak leaf hydrangeas, which are a little tougher. They are white, conical shape blossoms and most are very fragrant. They still want some acidity and can get quite large. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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- Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
Wed, Oct 28, 09 at 13:22
| Camellias. I have a couple that get no irrigation at all, just winter rain, and they look beautiful and bloom well. The trick is to keep the roots well shaded at all times. Camellias have a small, shallow root system that can dry out easily, but they can do well on little water (once established) if the roots are kept cool and protected. Check with Nuccio's in Altadena as to which varieties do well in your area--they know their camellias. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| I wonder if I should try 'Madame Alfred Carrière' in this spot for the climber...? several sites online list her as being good for north facings or shadier spots. she's always described as being so vigorous, maybe she'd be ok here? Or would she still be way too large? New Dawn and Blush Noisette seem to be recommended a lot, too. (but New Dawn is really thorny, right...?)
Some sites said Eden cl was ok for the shade... regarding hybrid musks... could I go with Felicia, Ballerina or Mutabilis? Thank you for the tip about Robin Hood! I was also looking at some recommendations online that said to buy the rose and dig a hole big enough for the pot,... but don't actually plant it, just sit it, in the pot, in the hole, and see how it does for a couple months. I love Camellias, too... I do worry about them getting too huge in that location though. I'd prefer something more around 3-5 feet, instead of 8... (so that you can still see the house well, and see out from the porch) it's so hot here... I worry about things normally listed as being good for shade being ok here. like sage, penstemon, evening primrose... they're listed as half shade... would they be ok here? oy,... so much to think about. Thanks so much for your help you guys. Really really helpful. |
RE: camellias
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hoovb, wow really? Thankyou! I'll definitely check that out then in Altadena... Maybe I can put a couple camellias in and use some smaller plants down from them.
I know there is one spot that is pretty much shaded by the house all day where it could be allowed to get large if it wanted to, so the roots would be ok there. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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Of the ones you mentioned I've grown:
"james galway"
Brother Cadfael
Jude the Obscure First the bad news:
Brother Cadfael
Jude the Obscure These 2 never impressed me much in full sun so I'm skeptical about shade. BC pooped out on me this year, Jude does well enough, but when it's gone, I won't buy another. Now the maybe good news.
james galwaY. I'm confused about what makes a climbing version of an Austin, I grow the normal one and it's about 10' tall by 6' wide and
I NEVER need do anything for it. It does grow in full sun, I fertilize in spring, and sometimes spray for BS, but that's mostly because there's
other roses that need it anyway so it sometimes gets the left-overs. I don't even prune it because it gets very little die-back and has pretty good form.
It's also thornless. The down side is while the spring flush is excellent (and I'm not a real fan of pink), it's not a good re-bloomer, it does but not much. It also takes 2-3 seasons before the blooms get heavy. A rose that does well in the shade for me is Traviata. NOrmally, it is a very large shrub, the one I have in full sun is about 10' tall, 5' wide. The one growing under an oak tree is about
half that size, with good vigor and reasonable bloom, nothing like the one in full sun, but much better than many in optimal conditions. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| someone else had trouble with BC, too,... I think I'll avoid it, then. THankyou! james galway,... you're growing in full sun, any inclination on whether it might be ok in shade? that's too bad about the rebloom, but the rest sounds nice. I'm tempted to get a couple different ones instead of repeats of the same climber to see who does better. but maybe that is foolish. thanks so much, |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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I have some areas with the same problem you have. I have camellias in one spot and they do wonderful, I love the red and white striped ones. In the other spot I have a hydrangea (needs a ton of water) and 1 rose. The rose I put there because of the color, it can't take the sun. It's a black bacara (my one and only HT/non-Austin) and, oddly, it blooms profusely. The blooms are also black like they are supposed to be. I had it in a sunnier spot and it bloomed rarely and the leaves turned to brown burnt chips. Also it doesn't get black spot like I thought it would in the mostly shade it lives in.
You could always try one or 2 of the things you'd like and just see what works. Those roses may surprise you yet and thrive. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| michellesg, thankyou, that's encouraging. I think I'm going to go try and buy a camellia this weekend, that would be fun. Also, what you said about the color,... that's why I was considering "The Prince" for this spot due to it's dark reddish purple colors. Some other ones like William Shakespeare 2000 seem to really like full sun according to the forum... but a couple people said The Prince prefers not to be,... so I figure I'll give it a shot. |
RE: James Galway
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| There's no way to know for sure, but I read somewhere that, regarding shade, to pick a rose that does really well in your location and chances are that it will be a reduced version of itself. So I would image JG, though healthy, may be half it's size with no rebloom and a good spring bloom. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| thanks, that makes a lot of sense! |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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- Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
Thu, Oct 29, 09 at 16:37
| If you are going to try roses in shade (not recommended), plant them in large pots and just sink the pots into the ground. That will make it easy to move them when they decline due to lack of sun. Just remember on the camellias, they will need regular water until they are well established. That goes for just about all drought-tolerant plants. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| Re your question about Madame Alfred Carriere - we are in zone 9 in CA, and I have 3 MAC plants that I planted in deep shade, with the hopes that they would get big enough to reach up 10-15 feet, which is where the sun was. It worked - after about 3 years in total shade, they managed to get up into a tree in one instance, and on top of the garage in the other two. All three are about 18 years old now, and bloom from Feb through Nov,and are three of my most favorite roses in our garden. However, the first one has taken over the tree, and two trees next to it, and the other two have eaten the garage. We love them, but I would only plant one next to your door if there is some way it can get up to the roof of your house where the sun is, and presuming you want a giant rose on the roof of your house... Jackie |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| I'm in zone 6b7-----I've had good luck with New Dawn but as you said it is thorny but it is worth it--- Paul's Himalayan Musk was planted on a tree line---we were in the process of remodeling and had to move him---He was totally neglected---no food --no water--lots of shade ---couple of years later he was a beautiful monster. 
Florence |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| hoovb, I think I'll do that, thankyou! jacqueline3, I ended up starting the ordering process on MAC today!
I decided to get 1 of that and 1 of eden. It sounds like MAC is a pretty ok bet... and I love eden, so if I need to move her later, I will.
If it works out ok then I'll get another one or two later. Is there any reason why it would be bad to have a giant rose on the roof of my house...? it can't really damage the house can it? because otherwise, I'm totally down with a monster on my roof. zeffyrose_pa6b7, wow gorgeous!!! I ended up going with 1 MAC, 1 cl. Eden, 1 The Prince, 1 Jude the Obscure and 1 Wildeve.
If they start to flounder then I'll move them, they were ones that were on my consideration list for the backyard anyway... and I'm not going to have time to work seriously on the back yard for a little while yet. So that's ok.
I'm seriously considering hybrid musks (thanks for the rec!) but... I'd like to kinda see how these do first even if they aren't as tolerant as the HMs... I guess I'm concerned about getting too many here. I'm going to focus on the corner of the front yard that gets more sun with these and then plant a camellia in the shady spot. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| So glad to hear that you are willing to have monster roses on your house! We have 2 on our house, as well as the 2 MACs on the garage, (a banksie lutea and a climbing Cecile Bruner) that have reached the 3 1/2 story high roof. They are each 15-20 feet wide, also. The only problem we have had with them in 20 years is that once they fell off the house in a 100 MPH windstorm and of course blocked the driveway. The main canes didn't even break! We just cut them back massively, and tied them back up on the house. The next Spring they had the best bloom ever. The other issue, of course, is that once a year my husband gets up on his 40 foot ladder to prune them & tie them onto the house where they need it. If your house is not 3 stories tall this should be easier! Good luck - I think huge climbers are my very favorite kind of rose - when they are blooming in the first Spring flush our neighbors all come running to look at them. Jackie |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| Jackie - oh, that sounds so very charming! Our house is two stories, I think we aren't supposed to stand on the roof because it's some type of clay tile...? but hopefully I can find a way around that once a year? Perhaps I can find a few places up the side of the house to secure them for when it gets windy, cause it can get quite windy up here! EDIT: Since the places I looked at didn't have Jude the Obscure or Eden right now,... I went with
(2) MAC Noisette, (2) Wildeve English, (1) The Prince English, (1) Felicia Hybrid Musk I'll get some more roses this spring when I plant the backyard, etc... (hard to wait) My mom, who lives on the other side of the country is almost as excited as I am about MAC climbing up the house. |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| just taking some more photos to show what the sun looks like. I'm not sure on that last 5pm photo, that photo might actually be later. I'll check again today. So, looks like the far side might get a bit of sun. I got a camellia today (Marie Bracey) for the shaded part. 
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RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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| When all your new roses are in bloom your neighbors will be just as excited as you are. Good luck with your choices. Florence |
RE: Will these roses be ok in a shaded socal position?
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 ... well! here we go! I'll try and plant them this weekend. (2 Wildeve and 1 The Prince) |
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