A while ago I received some helpful advice here so now I'm back for more... Since up until now I have chosen all our roses, I agreed with my partner that when I place my bare root order this winter he can choose a rose (how generous of me!) He has requested something dark 'black/crimson'

Our other roses are either Austins, or antique (Souvenir de la Malmaison, Comte de Chambord) and I want something that fits in with these, not a modern-shaped rose. We already have a Munstead Wood but were hoping for something a little less purple in tone.

Anyway, I stumbled across 'Black Prince' on the website of the nursery I'm planning to order from, but I can't find much information about it online. Does anyone have any experience of it and would they recommend it? Souvenir du Docteur Jarmin also looks beautiful but probably too big, the rose would need to live in a pot for the next year or two.

We live in Tuscany, Italy, so a mild climate with hot, dry summers. We can be flexible about its position - all day sun, or just morning or just afternoon.

Thanks! Katie

I did find the www.helpmefind.com entry on the 'Black Prince'. It is another hybrid perpetual; lovely color. Here is the hmf entry with some information on it. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.715

One that you might like of that color that will remain small is the china, 'Louis XIV' - here is the hmf link for it. It appears to be available in Italy.

I grew it for awhile here; it may have the color you're seeking.

Good luck with your search! Gean

I don't have 'Black Prince' but I do have its parent, 'Pierre Notting'. My plant (still a baby, came as a band this Spring) is showing a general growth pattern similar to a long-caned Bourbon (think 'Mme Isaac Pereire') but a little less vigorous. If I was going to keep something like that in a pot, it'd have to be a big pot.

If you're looking for a pot-pet dark red, 'Louis XIV' mentioned above is something that could work. Keep in mind that it's very likely that the rose being sold under this name is the same rose being sold under another name -- 'Nigrette', an old Hybrid Tea (which, itself, is also known as 'The Black Rose of Sangerhausen'). So if a nursery near you doesn't sell 'Louis XIV' but does have 'Nigrette', get it -- you'll get the same rose either way.

I have it (purchased as 'Nigrette' from Vintage Gardens this Spring), and it does indeed have very dark almost-black flowers (and they smell nice, too). I also have (or will soon have) a few other Hybrid Teas in this color-genre which will also remain pot-pets. They will be finicky, but consider also looking for:

'Barcelona' (which is the same rose sold as 'Francis Dubreuil')
'Black Lady'
'Black Velvet'
'Chateau de Clos Vougeot'
'Night' (aka 'Lady Sackville')
'Oklahoma' (which will grow larger than the others)

If you don't mind a rose without fragrance, consider finding 'Black Jade' (a miniature rose), which would certainly do well in a pot.

Try looking them up by name at the link below.

:-)

~Christopher

Gean, the lovely photos of Black Prince on that link are tempting me, although I think Louis XIV sounds like its growing habit is more suitable for a couple of years living in a pot. I was unfamiliar with this rose (no photo in my catalogue so I lazily dismissed it!) so am going to read up on it now.

Christopher, thanks for the info on the parentage of Black Prince and the very helpful list of alternatives. The multiple name and/or mistakenidentity thing is very confusing for a novice! Barcelona (seems to be sold here as Francis Dubreuil) looks particularly lovely and of the right dimensions for a pot. Just how finicky is he?

Katie

By "finicky" I mean that the deep, dark almost-black red fragrant Hybrid Teas aren't the most vigorous plants as a general rule. This makes them perfect candidates for "pot-pets" where they will not have root competition and can have all the rich, organic potting mix to themselves. If mildew and/or blackspot become issues, they can more easily be treated in their pots. If their flowers get crisped from too much hot afternoon sun, they can be moved to where this doesn't become an issue. Mine will have companion annuals filling in the planters next year, so that the whole composition follows the "thriller, filler, spiller" triad, with the roses being the "thrillers" in the center. This will also help to mask any bare legs to the roses as they grow, and if the foliage isn't looking the best, the other plants will offer visual distraction.

I have a few other fragrant red Hybrid Teas in my beginning collection, but they are more on the crimson side, rather than near-black. All will be grown the same -- as "pot-pets" with companion annuals in larger planters next year. For now, they're still in their 2-gal pots from when I replanted them this past Spring.

Give some a try! While the plants themselves may not be the best "garden-worthy" roses, as "pot-pets" they offer a way of enjoying their dark and sultry blooms without having an eyesore in a garden bed.

:-)

~Christopher

After the Second World War, a plant of 'Barcelona' was misidentified as the old tea rose 'Francis Dubreuil', which is now thought to be extinct. However, the latter name is still widely used.

Christopher, I felt very encouraged by your advice to give it a try! Good luck with your collection. As we only have a small terrazza I don't have many roses and am therefore able and happy to pamper them in their pots, and the thriller/filler/spiller technique is a great idea. I'm curious as to what you use as companions in the pots? I'm afraid of competition for root space but have planted some thyme under a couple of roses...

It's hard to say now what I'll use next Spring, since I'll be picking things out as I go along at the nursery. Alyssum will probably get mixed in somehow. Maybe I'll see some nice annual blue Salvia and use them. I'm sure I'll find some interesting Coleus. In any case, I'll take pics after I put them together and share them next year.

:-)

~Christopher

Gean