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ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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Posted by nanito 5 (My Page) on Sat, Oct 31, 09 at 15:54
Hi all! This is an old Tea Rose that grows in my grandfather ´s garden. According to what he told me it may have more than 50 years growing there.
I thought at first it could be something like ´Maman Cochet Rouge´ but its yellow centre got me confused!.
Thanks a lot, Mariano.
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Follow-Up Postings:
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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| You do not mention where this rose is growing. Just looking at the photo, I'd next ask you, "Does it have thorns or no?" If it has thorns, based on that photograph I'd guess Marie van Houtte. If it was thornless, I'd guess Mrs. Dudley Cross. Pretty picture. Jerome |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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| We don't grow Maman Cochet Rouge/Auguste Comte in the USA, but if the blooms follow the form of Maman Cochet, as described by the authorities, then the bloom should be rather large, maybe 10cm. There are several possibilities. A description of the rest of the plant would be very helpful. Here's what comes to mind immediately:
1. White Maman Cochet, which has the creamy center petals with outer petals washed with pink. It is a very large plant with average prickles.
2. William R. Smith, which at certain times of the year shows this coloring but also shows pink blooms. It is a very large, stiff, awkward plant with massive prickles.
3. A rose sold as both Souvenir de Victor Hugo and as Mme Jean Dupuy which, in opinion, are the same cultivar, in which the center cream is sometimes a warm buff to gold, at others a warm cream. This rose has very few prickles. Tthe blooms on Souvenir de Victor Hugo/Mme Jean Dupuy are smaller, don't open as wide, as Maman Cochet and White Maman Cochet. Please see August Comte, White Maman Cochet and Souvenir de Victor Hugo and Mme Jean Dupuy on HelpMeFind.com. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Roses with Cochet in the name at HelpMeFind.com
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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Hello everybody and THANKS for your kind and quick answers.
I used to give more detailed info about the roses I always try to identify, but in this case in particular this rose grows in my grandfather´s garden in Necochea, a seaside town 500 km far away from Buenos Aires. As we have the house as a house to go during the summer, the roses that grow there have no cares during most of the fall and winter months. I have been checking the roses you mentioned and the ones that shares many features are ´Souvenir de Victor Hugo´ and ´Mme Jean Dupuy´, but in this roses the yellow is the predominat color, and not the cream pink, as in most of its flowers.
As much as I remember, this is a big plant (2 mts high, almost 2 mts wide), a prifuse blommer during the spring months. The flowers are up to 60 petals, cream pink with cerise edges and the characteristic tea fragance of most of the Tea Roses. It is not particulary thorny.
I have addes many more pictures to my Picasa Album, there you will be able to appreciate the shape and color of the rosebud and some flowers wide open with the characteristic cerise blending in the edges (cell picture). Take a look! Kind regards, Mariano. |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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I'm in agreement with Jerome. Check for thorns.
Jill |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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| Mariano - check out the pictures of "Niles Cochet" (in this country sometimes also called "Red Maman Cochet") on Help Me Find Roses. The picture of the one in Cass's garden does show the pale yellow center. I have this rose in my garden, and I can tell you that the coloration is very variable, depending on the weather. Sometimes it has a buff center, sometimes pale pink, and sometimes pale yellow. What does not change is the deep cerise outer petals. The buds do look like some of those in your pictures. Jackie |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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| Jill I will check the thorns but this will be in a couple of months time when I go there for some hollidays. Anyway, I think that the rose is indeed ´Niles Cochet´(Red Maman Cochet). I have been looking at the pictures of HMF and it is exactly the same!. THANKS Jacqueline!!! (and take a look at the post ´White Blend Rose ID (White Radiance???)´, maybe you could give me any suggestion there! Keep in touch, Mariano. |
Just for fun
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I don't grow Mrs. Dudley Cross, but here are some of the other prospects in a line-up: Mme Jean Dupuy, Marie Van Houtte, William R. Smith, Niles Cochet and White Maman Cochet. Here's the little file. Big file in link.
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Here is a link that might be useful: Warning: big file
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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JUST AMAZING!!! (just missing ´Hugo Roller´ and ´Rosette Delizy´ to show all my favourite Tea Roses).
Very illustrative.Thank you very, very much for your picture: with no doubts my rose is ´Niles Cochet´(´Red Maman Cochet´). Keep in touch, Mariano. |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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| We have a rose here -- a local "family" rose -- that dates to the late 1890's, and varies wildly between Maman Cochet, White Maman Cochet, and Niles Cochet (which post-dates it). It is study-named "Sarah Moon" for the lady who grew it -- but your rose puts me in mind of it Mariano. You can't peg it as any one thing . . . Jeri |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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| "You can't peg it as any one thing" what do you mean Jeri??? Kind regards, Mariano. |
another possibility: ´Sarah Moon´
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Ohhh my god Jeri! I have been checking the HMF website and most of the pictures are really similar, I have not considered ´Sarah Moon´at all (I even knew it). Most of the pics are pretty similar, but I do not remember if the flowers finally turn completely into deep cerise, like in one of the pictures.
I think I will have to go and take some more pictures of my grandfather´s rose, but, as I said, it will be in a couple months time when I go on hollidays. But needless to say it is another possibility to take into account! Please, keep in touch, Mariano. |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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Just to be clear -- It doesn't stay any one rose long enough to decide that is it -- but it is more-red more often than it is more-pink.
The history of this rose is that Sarah Moon collected it in the old St. Mary's Cemetery on the day she buried her first child there. :-(
The family has grown it since, and we got it from her grandson.
We have seen it look just like Maman Cochet, Niles Cochet, and something more like William R. Smith than like White Maman Cochet. I wouldn't care to try to put a historic name on it.
FWIW, St. Mary's Cemetery was about 2 blocks from "Shepherd's Gardens," a noted 19th-Century nursery, operated by Theodosia Burr Shepherd, in "Ventura-By-The-Sea" (Ventura, CA)
Shepherd's Gardens did offer an extensive list of roses, but I've never come up with a match from the versions I've seen of their rose list. Jeri |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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Hi Jeri and THANKS for your answer. As far as I understand english, I imagine you suggested me not to be so hasty in identifying a rose. The fact is that when Cass published her very illustrative picture, the ´Niles Cochet´ rose looked exactly the same than the rose my grandfather grows. Of course it could be a bit daring of me confirming the identification, but I had been taking actions such as reading many times the HMF website concerning ´Niles Cochet´rose, the ´Vintage Gardens´ site where a great amount of roses are published, as well as my grandfather´s valuable tales, bases in more than 60 years growing roses.
Anyway, I am new in this forum and do not take part of it very often, so it could have been a mistake from me. In that case, sorry for it! Once more THANKS for your help and keep in touch!
Mariano. ps.: THANKS for the story of ´Sarah Moon´, I have already read it yesterday night while looking for ´Sarah Moon´rose in HMF. |
RE: ID Tea Rose (Maman Cochet Rouge???)
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| I'd say Niles Cochet is a likely identification for your rose. That whole group of roses is infinitely variable, which to me is part of their charm. Jeri |
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