Mmmm, traditionally, Moonlight is usually cited as the most feasible HM climber and while I concur that it is a big rose, it is also somewhat stiff and unwieldy with a habit of throwing many basals with obtuse angles, often ending up with rather more width than height. Penelope, at least in my garden, also displays the tendency to chuck out long ungainly stems but not so many, enabling me to keep it within fairly strict bounds against a fence. Penelope also assorts rather well with numerous understorey plants while both Moonlight and Pax tend to get far denser and shadier (although a number of hardy geraniums do quite well sheltering under Moonlights capacious wings). Felicia, I do not grow so would, if using a pillar, feel most confident that Penelope would do rather well. As a slight bonus, the bloom clusters on Penelope seem to last a bit longer, die with more grace and resist mildew better than Moonlight or Pax.
However, I do find Penelope's blooms to be a bit, well, so so whereas Moonlight's second flush in particular, especially having built up a nice amount of claret and plum coloured new growth, has a delicacy and refinement missing in the pinkish overtones of Penelope.
All-in-all, a terribly long-winded waffle telling you little. Ah well, it is late at night here, the house is sleeping and insomnia stalks my hot and uncomfortable bed.

I'll add some more waffles for a full breakfast.

I've grown Penelope, Moonlight & Pax (but this is pretty new) in a no-spray yard in a deserty climate.

Penelope has a huge spring flush--really stunning. The flowers are fragrant, creamy with peachy-yellowish buds & appear by the hundreds. It tended to grow stiffly upright for 3' or so before the canes arched. Lots of basal growth--a good thick shrub. I don't recall the remontancy specifically but most HMs continue to throw some blooms & give another fall flush for me.

I had Moonlight in an over-shaded thickly planted area. It threw lots of lax canes & grew up a red bud tree. The flowers were small to medium, fragrant & pure, almost bluish white. I never had this poor plant in a good location but it grew vigorously. Impressive hooked thorns, though not as abundant as Penelope's, let it claw up the tree.

I just got Pax last year so can't comment much re. its growth. It's throwing long lax canes now. The blooms are similar to Moonlight--very pure white, fragrant. I'm hoping to string it up into a Mexican persimmon. My grandmother grew this one 'way back when it was introduced. It's been very healthy & I like its historical value.

Kate, IâÂÂve only had my Felicia (own root) for a whopping 5 weeks, so canâÂÂt offer too much other than to say I love her so far. I was looking at Penelope and Cornelia when I bought Felicia, but the nursery owner strongly suggested Felicia over those two saying she blooms nonstop here and fragrance canâÂÂt be beat. There were no Felicia's out with the other OGRs, so he went to the greenhouse to check if he had one ready to sell. The one he brought me was small for a 1 gallon, so he discounted it, but said she is so vigorous, she would be big in no time...he was right. I potted her up from a 1 gallon to a 5 gallon, but she is really big enough to put in the ground now. She already has a new basal cane and hasnâÂÂt been without buds yet. IâÂÂve been disbudding the majority of them, but have let several open up. Buds start out a deep peachy color and open to a peach, pink, cream mix. The peach and pink tones do fade rather quickly in the heat, but the blooms themselves last a while on the bush and the fragrance is heavenly. The nursery I bought mine from doesnâÂÂt spray their OGRs and I havenâÂÂt sprayed mine. Blackspot is currently running rampant through my moderns and some of my OGRs are spotted, but Felicia has stayed clean so far.

Here's a spray I didn't disbud (propped up on a nandina):
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And here's a blurry (sorry) shot of the whole plant in a 5 gallon pot:

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I've only had Penelope and Felicia, and must say that the blooms of Penelope didn't excite me much and to me Felicia is much prettier. Other than Felicia, which did not care for my heat, the hybrid musks I've had seem a little chunky and wide to be good climbers, although I did see a beautiful Lavender Lassie that was quite tall at the Huntington. My climate is so different from yours that none of this may be very useful information.

Ingrid

Canes of Cornelia are relatively flexible and, I think, better suited to a pillar than Penelope or Felicia. I don't know Pax or Moonlight.

Hmm--maybe a hybrid musk as a replacement climber just isn't the best idea. Although a number of you like your HMs for different reasons, there doesn't seem to be a consensus on which would make the best disease-resistant climber.

I was looking earlier at some climbing pastel Austins--so there is always that option. But think, for now, I'll look around some more at other possibiltities also.

Thanks everyone, for the feedback. If anyone else has any thoughts on this topic, feel free to add them here.

Kate

Kate, what do you currently grow...trying to get an idea of what you like. Do you grow Parade?
Susan

Take a look at Colette, a lovely peachy pink climber. I've had her for a year, and she's nearing the top of my arbor. So far, she's a big bloomer in spring, and then puts a few blooms out sporadically the rest of the season, but I expect this to improve with more age. This girl can grow, and I won't be waiting any three years for my arbor to be covered. Colette has little fragrance to my nose (not the best smeller). This rose is tough in the heat, too, thriving in a hellishly hot spot near two sidewalks, with a southern exposure, and enduring many 100+ degree days. Diane
Here is a pic of Colette.

I just took a look at Colette on HMF. They mentioned hardiness to zone 7b which I think is sort of a default hardiness. Last year we had a particularly nasty January, probably a zone 6 one, in which temps got down to 0 degrees. Colette didn't flinch. Absolutely no dieback, no winter protection, and in an exposed spot. I think a little more research on her hardiness is in order. Diane

I'm baaack. I checked a few nurseries' listings, such as Brushwood, and all listed Colette as hardy to zone 5. Dave's garden had a reviewer from NY zone 6 saying Colette was very hardy there. Colette is being grown in Wisconsin, too. Just thought I'd mention what is being said about Colette's hardiness. Diane

Let me put in a slightly belated word for 'Pax'. I grow all the Hybrid Musks you list, though not very well. In my experience 'Felicia' in particular and 'Penelope' are shrubby (and 'Felicia' has an exquisite wafting fragrance), and 'Moonlight' is long caned, but 'Pax' has lax, long canes suitable for training as a climber, in the style of 'Cornelia'. It's also one of the most beautiful Pemberton musks, in my opinion, with relatively large white blooms (fragrant, of course), which contrast in a lovely fashion with the elegant dark foliage and red new growth. You've reminded me that I need to propagate it this year and then find it a place where it might be able to flourish: it doesn't like my very compact gray clay and blazing sun. I don't know about blackspot resistence for any of these varieties, nor about hardiness.
Melissa

Melissa's mentioning Pax reminds me of a plant of it I saw many years ago but still remember because the flowers were so different from the other hybrid musks, and that Pax also was not shrubby, in fact slender, although I don't know how old it was. It really was elegant and rather special.

Ingrid

I have grown Penelope for well over 10 years. I have 4 of them. I think the canes would be hard to control going upwards. Mine arch, and I work hard to keep them in bounds.

My Bubble Bath arches also, but has thinner canes. I just thougtht I would say that since it is so pretty. I wouldn't try to grow it upwards either.

Good luck.
Sammy

Diane, my 'Colette' never developed a good repeat bloom. The spring flush is very long-lasting, though. I agree she is flexible and suited to a good-sized pillar, Blackspot-resistant in some gardens, very susceptible in others.

Thank you for the additional comments. I'm putting Colette and Pax on my List of Possibilities. Fortunately, I have time to do further research and mull over the options.

What am I looking for? Not real sure, but I think I want something whitish or very pastel or white outer petals/light pink middle petals. The climber that died is Eden, so you know what any replacement is competing with! I thought I might try a different climber --since I don't have any other space open in my gardens for expanding on my climber options.

Like I said, I do have an Austin picked out--St. Swithun--which would be fine, but I thought I'd like to try an older rose of a different type. I already grow 2 different hybrid musks, but 15 Austins.

Last night I chanced upon an older post by Patrick/Molineux praising Clotilde Soupert Cl. to high heaven. I've been looking up more information on it--really like it. Yes, I read about the balling problem--but I have that problem in the spring with Austin's Pretty Jessica and Mayflower, so that would be nothing new. I often manually assist their buds in opening.

Anyone have experience growing Clotilde Soupert Cl. in Zone 6? Most of the comments I found were from Zones 7 and 8 and 9-10. Does CS have problems in Zone 6? And how BS resistant is it in Zone 6/Midwest?

Any further comments on Clotilde Soupert Cl. or similar pastel/white type climber?

Kate

Corrected typo.

This post was edited by dublinbay on Wed, Oct 16, 13 at 14:07

A climber that balls is a different proposition from a 3' shrub that balls (and my PJ does it too).

I'm still browsing around trying to find the exact "perfect" climber for the replacement.

I see the HM Ghislaine de Feligonde is considered a climber, but the descriptions on HMF are confusing. Does anyone grow it? Don't remember it being mentioned here, but then, I wasn't looking for it either. I find it very attractive--if I could determine that it is BS resistant and grows well in Zone 6.

I'm also wondering about the BS resistance of Sombreuil. I've considered it several times in the past--don't remember why I rejected it finally. Lovely bloom. Again, does it grow well in Zone 6?

Actually I'm beginning to think I should just replant Eden--which was gorgeous, but not as bs resistant and good at reblooming as I would have wished. Not bad--just not as good as I would ideally like.

Kate

Kate,

You and I seem to have somewhat similar climates. I have not grown Clothilde Soupert Cl. but do grow the bush form. I killed one and its replacement was going downhill but is now thriving thanks to information gleaned on this forum. Clothilde improved with more water, alfalfa and pine bark mulch. She is a polyantha and seems to need more acid than our native soil provides. She may have minor die back of some small twigs in the winter but not to the ground. And I love her enough to have replanted her.

I grew Sombreuil, grafted, here many years ago and it lived about 6 years. I planted it, own root, again about 3 years ago. It is getting a slower start than the grafted one but is slowly gaining ground. It has afternoon sun and root competition from Taxus hicksii (Hick's yew). It is supposed to be remontant but I have not seen much of that. However other roses have become more remontant since I started using alfalfa and I have hopes that when it is older, it will become so.

Cath

Cath, thank you for the feedback. That was helpful.

I'm on a see-saw about which climber to get. My first choice was an older rose since most of my roses are moderns and I'd like a little more diversity--in what little space I have left in my gardens. So Clothilde Soupert or Ghislaine de Feligonde or maybe Moonlight would seem to be the better choices. But Sombreuil has lovely blooms--or perhaps just replant Eden which, as everybody knows, has gorgeous blooms.

I hope some more of you weigh in with your experiences--especially from Zone 6. I'm not seeing my way clearly on this matter.

Kate

Have you thought about Blossomtime? ItâÂÂs new for me this year, so I donâÂÂt have a wealth of info to provide, but so far IâÂÂm very happy with it. A consistent bloomer, very fragrant, medium to large, old fashioned tea-like nodding blooms of the prettiest pastel pink with darker pink reverse. IâÂÂm growing it as an arching shrub rather than a climber (thatâÂÂs how IâÂÂm intending to grow Felicia, as well), but it is classified as a climber and so far growth seems like it would be a good one. IâÂÂm growing the bush form of Clotilde Soupert, but itâÂÂs new for me this year, too. I havenâÂÂt had any issue with balling so far, but I didnâÂÂt get it until after our rainy spring and early summer had passed. It doesnâÂÂt seem to have any issue with our high humidity as far as balling or disease, but again, IâÂÂve only had it for a limited time.

Wow, pat--that is one fully packed bloom! Very interesting--but I'd prefer something with white or cream in it.

For now, I'm really focusing in on Ghislaine de Feligonde, but am wondering how well it re-blooms. Some descriptions say it gets "occasional" blooms later in the season, but some others say it blooms all the time. Not sure what accounts for the differences.

Kate

Blossomtime is a beautyâ¦not one I went in search of, but it called to me from way across the nursery and I just couldnâÂÂt resist. Definitely no white/cream involved with her, though.
I hadnâÂÂt heard of Ghislaine de Feligonde (and sure canâÂÂt pronounce it...lol), but looked it up on HMFâ¦it is absolutely gorgeous! Hopefully, there will be some with growing experience who can give you insight. Would love to hear more about that one.

I grew 'Ghislaine de Feligonde' as a short climber up a pine tree when living in north Alabama in 3 or 4 hours of morning sun. I had to prune it a lot to try to get it to climb up the pine. I think its natural form is more that of a mounding shrub than a climber, but it is easy to prune because of its multiflora canes. It had a beautiful spring flush and then bloomed a tiny bit through the summer and then a little more in the fall. It stayed pretty clean, foliage-wise, during the summers in Alabama.

I grow it here in the PNW as a mounding shrub on the north side of a wall, so it is definitely shade tolerant. It blooms more all through the summer here than it did in Alabama. I am inclined to think the reason it does is because it's cooler here during the summers than it was in Alabama, but it could also be a difference in soil, sun, or clones, I am not really sure. In both places I have grown this rose it has had acid soil. It's a multiflora rambler. How do polys do for you, Kate?

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Just another thought - if you want a cream/white colored climber that always seems to be in bloom, Kate, take a look at 'White Cap'. It's healthy and blooms a lot although no fragrance to me. Also not the small blooms of the hybrid musks.

Another thought is- a new one for me is 'Creme de la Creme'; it has only bloomed a little so far for me, but I think it will bloom more as it gets older. The cream blooms are really pretty and they smell like ripe pears to me. That was a new scent for me this summer; I am anxious to see how this one will do next year. Sorry if I muddied the waters for you!

Sombreiul is really thorny - neither of the two above are too life threatening! Hope that helps. Gean

Two shots of 'White Cap'
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PS, Kate,
White Cap is rated to 5b so it should be fine hardiness wise for you. I saw on hmf that Nipstress is growing Creme de la Creme in Nebraska, so if you're interested in it you might ask her. Anyway, good luck with choosing! GdF is one of my favorite roses, but I am partial to those small bloomed types. Gean

Just a little plug for 'Felicia as a short climber:
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Best wishes,
Jon

WOW...I don't know what to say other than I want to live in your garden...it's spectacularly beautiful!!!

Ghislaine de Feligonde - a lovely rose but a bit rubbish as a climber - like all the multiflora ramblers, it is far too shrubby for pillar training as it has a wide profile (although it works really well against a chainlink fence). I grow my taller HMs using old wire cages(ex-council rubbish bins) as short tuteurs - the metal bands enclose the basal growth until about 1metre when I let the canes arch outwards and down. Not exactly pillar-like but a good focal point nonetheless.

Palustris has posted a picture of GdF as a tight climber on an archway around a door, but I imagine that it's a lot of work to keep it in bounds. Its natural form is that of a shrubby mound based on what I've seen in a couple of gardens.

Jon, what a treat to see your garden!

I agree with pat--I want to go live in Jon's garden! Just gorgeous! I do hope that is your spring bloom, Jon. If it is your end of the season bloom, I'm going to be really depressed about my gardens!

Jon--your Felicia is wonderful! But pinker than what I'm looking for. But thanks for sharing those pics.

Harbor--thanks for the references to White Cap and Crème de la Crème. Big fat full blooms again. I'll keep them in reserve, but I haven't given up yet on finding an older rose to help round out my rose collections.

Campanula--I did notice in some of the pics that Ghislaine gets rather plump and mounding as a bush, but I've also seen some pics of it wrapped round a pillar and it seemed mostly under control like that. But thanks for your contribution. I hope we get more input from others who have grown her and see if there is a consensus--on her or on any of the climbers mentioned so far.

I love everyone's pics, by the way. : )

Kate

Ah, it is nice to see Creme de la Creme has made the trip from across the Atlantic - I met old Mr.Gandy in his Leicestershire fields (he was in his 90s and still had the same wild teenage enthusiasm despite a lifetime of growing roses).
Along with GdF, I also grow its parent, Goldfinch. Despite their relatively short season of bloom (3 weeks), they are saved from oblivion by their lush foliage and fulsome presence - they do benefit from other, longer blooming neighbours though (or a discreet addition of a clem or 2).