Anyway, I posted this on the Rose ID forum but there's been no replies on it for two days so I'm posting it here in case you Antique Rose experts can help me confirm if this rose is a China or a Tea, or if it's even one of those two at all.

Ok, here's my description of this rose:
It has thin, twiggy stems with some thorns, foliage is often 5 leaflets; it's quite fragrant, its fragrance can be smelled when you're standing close to it; its flowers are quite droopy as can be seen, petals are very soft and delicate, you can easily pull them apart with your hand but they're strong enough to not be blown off by winds;

You don't really need to tell me its name, just if it's a China or a Tea, but if you can tell me its name, then I'd very much appreciate it too. :D

Now before I go, I'd like to ask. What exactly differentiates a Tea from a China? I know Chinas are more on the Crimson and Red side while the Teas are on the paler side of the spectrum but what's the most noticeable difference between them?

There are Teas I will always think of as Chinas. And there are a couple of roses that are officially Bourbons, which I think of as Chinas.

GENERALLY speaking, I'd say that Teas get to be taller, but are less twiggy-bushy. Their flowers are larger, too.

A picture being worth a thousand words, here's a "typical" Tea Rose plant, and a "typical" China Rose plant.

Jeri

As those early Teas were bred with Noisettes and Bourbons, they gained size and heft in their canes -- and also often developed larger flowers. To see the Tea Rose picture posted by Jeri, you'd likely think "how did something like that descend from something like "Bermuda Spice"? Well, look at pictures of the cane structures of some of the big Bourbons and you'll see something familiar. Compare the growth habits of Teas and Chinas with Bourbons and Noisettes as shown by Vintage Gardens in these links:

Teas
http://vintagegardens.com/roses.aspx?cat_id=35

Chinas
http://vintagegardens.com/roses.aspx?cat_id=6

Bourbons
http://vintagegardens.com/roses.aspx?cat_id=3

Noisettes
http://vintagegardens.com/roses.aspx?cat_id=26

These later Teas were also bred back with Chinas, blurring the lines again after the two groups were diverging. Generally, if the flower had the desired "Tea-form" and "Tea-fragrance", they were sold as Teas. Those which didn't (even if one or both parents were Teas) were sold as Chinas. As examples, 'Mme Laurette Messimy' and the closely-related 'Comtesse du Cayla' are usually called Chinas, but by heritage, they are really Teas. It's just that they didn't fit as much into the ideal of "what a Tea should be" at the time, and were sold as Chinas. If you look through the Chinas and Teas listed by Vintage Gardens in the links above, you'll find a few others that aren't clearly one or the other.

So to answer your question, it's easy to do if the rose is at one end of the Tea or China spectrum, but there's an overlapping area between them. If you see large, drooping flowers starting as pointed buds, subtle color changes shifting between pink and cream and yellow shades, catch a fragrance, and the plant develops fewer but hefty canes from which new growth branches out, you have a Tea. If it has small flowers which don't hang heavily, more clearly pink or red, with not much in the way of fragrance (but if there is, it smells like candy), and the plant grows thin, twiggy canes in all directions, you have a China. But you'll find a bunch of roses which have some characteristics of both groups, in which case your answer will depend on how the rose was classed when it was introduced.

:-)

~Christopher

Ingrid

Anyway, thanks for the info everyone!

From what you've all said, Teas often have larger, droopier flowers, a noticeable fragrance, and taller growth habit while Chinas have smaller flowers that don't droop too much, are less scented, and spread more thin growth everywhere.

And, some Chinas nod.

Jeri

Most rose classes have gray areas, as roses were hybridized outside their classes. When we think of Albas and Damasks, we characterize each class by the growth habits which describe most of them. But there are some that blur the lines there as well -- for example, 'Koenigen van Danemark' (or however it's spelled...) and 'Belle Amour' have characteristics of both classes. Perhaps because there are fewer extant roses in these classes it's easier to draw borders around them.

But as people bred Teas and Chinas, they often sought more variation by crossing them with other roses. If the resulting plants were still "Tea-enough" or "China-enough" then they were called that. It's hard to imagine, considering how few original Teas and Chinas made it to Europe, that all the variation we see in roses in these classes now could have arisen WITHOUT outcrossing to other groups. And we see evidence of it today -- "Sophie's Perpetual" looks like a China, but the flowers smell like a Bourbon. 'Papa Gontier' and its seedling 'Lady Hillingdon' are called Teas, but they're triploid -- and looking far back enough, you can find a Hybrid Perpetual ancestor. I think this happened more than we realize today, as breeders tried to expand the colors of Teas into the red shades. There are also Hybrid Perpetuals with Tea ancestors, so things went both ways. For a long time, the offspring more clearly leaned one way or the other, and it wasn't until continued back and forth breeding occurred that truly intermediate roses resulted -- and Hybrid Teas arose as a new class for them.

But this isn't cause for eliminating the classes. The generalities of each class will still apply to the majority of the roses in them. When it comes to the "line blurring" individuals, simply take note of the characteristics which apply to that particular rose when making decisions about how to grow the plant. Yes, some Chinas were put in the class because their flowers weren't up to "Tea-status", but if they grow like Teas, then treat them like Teas. And vice versa.

:-)

~Christopher

Also, one thing I've noticed about my Tea is that its reverse has a kind of pearl-like sheen. The nodding trait helps to show it off even more.

We don't think of them as having "weak necks."

We think of them as having a grace that the rigidly-upright Hybrid Tea Roses cannot achieve -- exemplified by 'Duchesse de Brabant,' below:

Jeri

This is a rather long posting, because I felt the issue of the "weak necked Tea" must be addressed with clarity by those who know and grow them.
Is it a China or Tea? Tea rose blossoms usually grow on narrow, and short pedicles which give Tea roses the fine advantage of showing
-all of the sides of each bloom.
-a rich variety of colors because of the change of positions as the bud opens and the flower becomes heavier and larger.
I collect Tea roses, and have cared for Tea roses in large collections, with 100+ Tea rose cultivars.
I love how Tea roses nod to show their pretty faces and consider this a great advantage in the garden.
However, it is only at the very end of a bloom cycle, that all of the roses on a Tea rosebush nod. I think this is an important point to make to folks who write disparagingly about the "weak necks of Tea roses"
A "weak neck" is a highly desirable trait in a rose, in the garden. Most of the time during the long bloom cycle of a Tea rosebush, most of the blooms are either held upright or in a full face position, the most glorious position a rose can be held in and one that most Hybrid Teas can never accomplish with their thick and stiff pedicles.

I've noted how each of the blooms on a Tea rosebush typically changes position: 3 times.

Position #1: Tulip flower position.
Rosebuds are held upright, as a tulip grows upright.
this is during the first few days of a bloom cycle, when an Old Garden Tea rose bush can be covered with several hundreds of rosebuds.
Advantage:
#1 buds are usually a richer hue when first opening.
Tea rose flowers show an amazing variation of hues and shades, partly because of this change of bloom positions.
Positon #2 "Full Face Position.
- next c. a third of the rosebuds open fully, showing their pretty faces. In my h. opinion, this is the most beautiful type of bloom position and one that one rarely sees among the Hybrid Tea class because of their stiff and thick pedicles.

Position #3 Blue bell position.
Now the first third of the roses, which began in their rosebud-tulip , then became heavier as the bloom opened fully to show their full face view, and now finish in the blue bell position, nodding gracefully.

Each and every blossom on a typical Tea rose, starts out in the blue bell position, goes on to open fully and shows its full face as the pedicle moves forwards, then finally finishes in the blue bell position.
.
Advantage:
one sees the base of the bloom, which is often a different color or hue, from the rest of the petal.
This constant cycling from one bloom position to the next causes an Old Garden Tea rosebush to show roses in bud, face out, and nodding gracefully, All at the same time! 3 bloom positions and a marvel of subtle and glorious hues on one bush.
However, It is only at the very end of a bloom cycle that every rose nods on a Tea rosebush, a finish which is as lovely as bluebells nodding in a bluebell wood, were they every shade and hue of pink or yellow.

The Tea rose class has the advantage of showing THE ENTIRE FLOWER during a bloom cycle, from upright bud changing to full face view, to the bluebell nod.
the buds are pertly held upright, and often show the deepest hue of the cycle.
open face, the most darling position, to me, when one sees the center of the bloom, and then the blue bell nod, so one sees the base of the petals clearly, be they gold, or rich cerise or another fair hue, blending in with the rest of the flowers pink, yellow, gold, mauve, ivory, or white or red.
It is a beautiful world, where Tea roses bloom.

Lux.

For those who have never seen a Tea rosebush in bloom or live in a cold climate, they might agree with some who write about "weak necks of Tea roses" as if this were a bad thing. It is a magnificent thing.
Hybrid Tea rosebushes typically can only show the tulip bloom position, which shows the sides of the bloom, not the face, unless one is standing over the bush.

sorry no time to edit, Luanne needs me to mash the spuds, sorry its so long.

"For those who have never seen a Tea rosebush in bloom or live in a cold climate, they might agree with some who write about "weak necks of Tea roses" as if this were a bad thing. It is a magnificent thing. "

*** THANK YOU, LUX.
That was so beautifully explained.

So, REALLY -- If you're discussing Tea Roses ... PLEASE just don't use the phrase: "weak necks."

Jeri

Also, weak-necked, or nodding, each are correct in their own standpoints. If looking at a biological perspective, weak-necked is an accurate description because the pedicels are soft and unable to support the weight of the flower. In an aesthetic point of view, nodding is more acceptable because it describes how the flower looks to the observer and also invokes positive connotations about the flower.

The negatives about "weak-necks" and "drooping flowers" came from exhibitors who wanted their show-blooms to face upward for judging. In the garden, we view plants from different angles, and big plants are at an advantage when their flowers face out or down. That's why I wanted 'Jaune Desprez' to climb my Japanese maple -- I wanted to look up from below and see the flowers facing me. And from the little experience with the few I have already, I notice that flowers facing out or down are less damaged by rain -- the water just rolls off the outer petals.

But ultimately, I enjoy the variations in roses I'm able to grow here. I think that we in the middle zones 7 and 8 can be lucky in that we get enough cold for the old European roses, but not so cold that the Chinas and Teas would die. True, the Chinas and Teas aren't growing to their full potential, and the old Europeans do have to deal with hot and humid Summers, but I like the idea that I have 'Lady Hillingdon' growing just several feet away from 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseaux'. The differences make for an interesting association.

BTW (and this is very off-topic), but do any of you in the warmer zones (9 or 10) have interests in aviary birds? One of my future projects is having huge walk-in planted aviaries, and I think they'd be beautiful with climbing Teas and Tea-Noisettes using them as trellises. I've seen some very interesting designs based on greenhouse frames, using wire mesh instead of plastic. Roses planted inside would attract aphids, which are relished by many species of captive finches -- a mutually beneficial situation. If you're on facebook, check out the page for the parrot sanctuary called Project Perry -- lots of pics of their planted African Grey Aviary. If not, check out their regular page. And see how another parrot sanctuary, Cockatoo Rescue, has planned out a beautiful garden around their aviaries. OK, the parrots would probably chew the roses to shreds (I know my Sammy LOVES when I bring in dead-heading trimmings for him to destroy), but a finch or softbill aviary could be really beautiful when draped with climbing roses....no?

:-)

~Christopher

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Project-Perry/144608394309

http://projectperry.org/

http://cockatoorescue.org/