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What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Wed, Nov 18, 09 at 15:03
After over twenty years growing roses I'm still getting my basic concepts straight. My current idea of what a Bourbon is like is roughly as follows:
Their flowers are white to pink to rose red (lots of pinks); no yellow, apricot, orange. Flowers are often cupped in form, in clusters, medium sized, frequently fragrant, with scent leaning toward old rose. They have large rounded leaves, robust smooth canes with sparse strong prickles, rarely bristles, and green new growth, and are decidedly shrubby or climbing, not as sparsely foliaged or as stiffly upright as the Hybrid Teas; many varieties make large shrubs. Many varieties set large oval orange-red hips with persistent black sepals. Bourbons are often reblooming. They tend to be susceptible to fungal diseases.
I would like to hear from those who know just what characteristics Bourbons do have, so that I can correct my working definition. The roses I grow include 'Louise Odier', 'Honorine de Brabant', 'Souv. de le Malmaison', 'Souv. de St. Anne's', 'Zephirine Drouhin', and 'Gros Choux de Hollande', which is sometimes placed in this class; and I have just planted 'Mme. Pierre Oger' and 'Bourbon Queen'.
I have a long history of not loving the Bourbons, which struck me as lacking the sheer sumptuousness of the once-blooming old roses on the one hand, and the lightness and elegance of the Teas and Chinas on the other. Their colors and foliage were rather boring; there was nothing sufficiently distinctive about them to justify growing them. This was my attitude. Lately I've been revising it, largely because I see a role for the Bourbons in the garden. They appear to be among the best roses for areas with really poor gray clay, along with the Albas and the Foetidas, and they're not afraid of drought or sun or wind (or cold, not that that's a problem here). Black spot is not a problem here. 'Zephirine Drouhin', often cited as a disease magnet, is usually clean, only succumbing once to a tremendous attack of rust after five weeks of unseasonal rain in May and June. She looked awful for the rest of the year, but came back flawless the following spring. This is another characteristic of the Bourbons: they seem to be very hard to kill.
I would like others' ideas about what I've written and whether or not it agrees with their experiences. I don't spray, and after the first year roses get practically no extra water.
Melissa |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| Dont you think that the problem with the Bourbons as a class is that they are so diverse-you cant really say exactly what a Bourbon is when you compare SDLM and her close relations with either Mme Pierre Oger or say Prince Napoleon. Boule de Neige seems more like a Portland and Coquette des Blanches is different again. I think your description is very accurate. I like them in general but they really need to be sprayed to do their best here..except a few. Mme Issac Periere is great in the spring but I usually expect most of my Bourbons to shine in late summer after they put on a new coat of leaves and rebloom. My once bloomers overshadow them in the spring. If they are not watered I would not expect much rebloom...still they are tough and cold hardy fragrant and make good cut flowers. That is as good a reason to grow them as I can think of. patricia |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| ZD - no thorns, fabulous smell, great foliage.....lovely. yep, mildew but even complete defoliation fails to disturb her equilibrium - oh, and she is a doddle to prune and shape. What's not to like? |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| Your list of attributes looks pretty good to me. Sumptuous bloom form and great fragrance are the biggies for me. I think Bourbons would be great for you if blackspot isn't a problem for you. It's their only fault in my garden. I have slightly alkaline clay soil. The long caned varieties seem to thrive in zones 6 and 7 where they don't get knocked down by winter, yet get some chill. I have Zephrine Drouhin, MIP, Louise Odier, Deuil de Dr. Reynaud, and Mme Pierre Oger...all very vigorous. Deuil de Dr. Reynaud
 Eric |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| The short-caned or dwarf tea-bourbons (basically the SDLM clan) are so different as cultural subjects from the long-caned bourbons that the common class name seems quite misleading. The tea-bourbons are somewhat resistant to spot diseases but susceptible to mildew. They do well here with spray for blackspot but usually suffer significant winter damage at around 5 F. They are commonly grown no-spray in Texas and the Deep South where they enjoy the heat and get much bigger than here. The LCB are highly susceptible to blackspot, rust, or mildew just about everywhere in North America except the inland desert. Secondhand, Louise Odier has been mentioned as unusually hardy and can be grown in parts of USDA zone 5. Zepherine Drouhin and MIP were fully hardy here in zone 6b. The dwarf tea-bourbons are busy repeat bloomers, the LCB not so much. |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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I think you are missing one completely different subset of bourbons, long cane bourbons like Mme Isaac Perier, Deuil de Dr Reynaud, Mme D'Enfert, etc. Tey are very different from the ones you grow in growth habit, bloom production, etc.
To me they are the most charming group of bourbons. In my climate they repeat resonably well, have great vigor, can be grown as bushes or climbers, their flowers are very big and fragrance is just unbeatable.
They like to be pruned and watered well, but otherwise are quite care free. Almost everything will get BS here and these bourbons are not exception. But they can be kept clean with just once a month application of Banner max, this is much more then you can say about most of modern roses or Austins. W/o spraying they will defoliate, as everything else here (with the exception of KnockOuts and Darlow's Enigma). I love them a lot. 
Olga |
Where do they do well?
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I know so little about keeping roses alive but do know this: bourbons do well in my Florida zone 9-10.
Souvenir de la Malmaison, Deuil de Dr. Reynaud and Climbing Souvenir dlM are still alive and flourishing while many others have perished this past summer. They take a beating and keep on ticking. LOVE their heady fragrance, rebloomability and voluptuous petals. Love that they survived and are actually flourishing. Gonna have to buy some more. I don't spray except some very very occasional dilute Miracle Gro. |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| WHAT MAKES A BOURBON? I don't think anyone knows, & it's my belief that there's more confusion and mystery surrounding Bourbons than any other class. WHERE DO THEY DO WELL? It depends on which Bourbons you wish to grow. If I were suddenly to decide that I must have a no-spray garden, I would focus first on Bourbons (primarily SdlM and her sports, but also a few other 'compact' members of the class). There are other Bourbons, however, that would be among the first to be banished. |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| SdlM is my only Bourbon. I was pleasantly surprised last year when I moved her from a pot and planted her in an unprotected spot in my garden. You'll made me think she was a sickly little thing. She has thrived and produces many flushes throughout the season. About 4x4 now. No winter die back! She gets sprayed about every 3 weeks. 
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RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| They don't like humidity, but that's not a problem for you. I've given up on them here. I still have a few, but blackspot eats them alive. They did very well for me in Santa Fe, NM. My definition: If it smells divine, looks as lush as chocolate decadence and gets blackspot, it's a bourbon. |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| SDLM is supposed to do fairly well here in Central Florida inspite of our humidity. I don't know why. I have two young plants, and I'm hoping for the best. I know her well enough to know she didn't get her name for no reason, and if she gets some BS, I'll just have to pull out my vinegar water bottle. I'm hoping I won't have to yank them. She's so beautiful. I had Maggie for a season. I like your definition, catsrose. It fits. Sherry |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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| My definition is simple: They have long canes, blooms delightfully scented of Old Rose, with very full form, few glandular parts, and, with the exception of the Tea Bourbons, which are tolerable, they are pitiful martyrs to blackspot and rust. Often the foliage leans more toward their China heritage in shape with pointed tips to the leaflets, in comparison to their siblings, the Hybrid Perpetuals, whose foliage leans more toward the Old Europeans in shape - - although this is not a hard and fast rule. Often the foliage is thinner than that I associate with HP's, again, not a hard and fast rule. I won't grow them, apart from the Tea Bourbons. Period. Smell good, look like @#!*%. I could tolerate the blackspot in many years (if we don't have a damp spring), but rust, nope. |
RE: What makes a Bourbon? Where do they do well?
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Thanks to everybody for all this information, which I'm going to be digesting for a while. I do think I have a relatively good situation for Bourbons, as black spot and rust are basically not a problem here, and they seem to take fairly kindly to our soil. The pictures fans posted certainly are tempting.
I'll add the reason why I posted this in the first place. I got a mislabeled rose that I puzzled over for some time: it certainly wasn't the Tea it purported to be and it didn't look like a Hybrid Tea either, or anything else I could place in a class. Then one day I was gazing at its pink blooms with cream underlay, its smooth green canes and large leaves, its big globular orange hips with persistent sepals, and I was smelling its distinctive and delicious scent. Something clicked in my brain, and I said to myself, "Bourbon". I still don't know what my rose is, though I like it, and I can't swear that it is a Bourbon; but my identification made me aware that I had a developed a set of identifying characteristics for this class, and I wanted to know how accurate they are. Thanks for the help! I think I'll be looking for places to put more Bourbons in our garden.
Happy gardening to all!
Melissa |
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