Or is Madame Hardy similar to Madame Plantier only armed?

Or is there a common old rootstock or large climber that would look similar to those?

Can you get photos of leaves, stipules, canes?

Plantier's leaves are quite distinctive.

Jeri

The leaves are in 5's with an occasional tiny more round 6th leaf. They are bright green and rather long with almost a wine red edge on some. But these leaves are all new this year from the cuttings, the mother plant has more medium green.

The flowers are in sprays, smaller, double, white with a bit of pink and a once bloomer. I will bring scissors and try to cut another cane this week.

Tammy

If you're thinking it could have been an old rootstock plant, the other pale-colored rootstocks are pinky-white Odorata, and pink Manetti.

If you go to HelpMeFind, Cass Bernstein has uploaded excellent detail photos of Manetti. Cass and others have done the same for R. odorata. These are relatively common rootstocks in CA.

Of course, what you have may NOT be rootstock. :-)

Jeri

Most plants that I have seen in real life and photos of Madame Legras are, in fact, Madame Plantier. The 'real' one is very definitely a woody shrub, not a rambler.

Madame Hardy is also a thorny shrub with a much more complex and larger flower and distinct button eye.

Jeri

The Marie Pavie we bought from Heirloom ALSO turned out to be another rose, quite unidentifiable. They accounted for the discrepancy by saying that THEIR Marie Pavie had more petals than the usual one, and was thus superior.

At the time, we were showing roses fairly regularly, and a rose that looked nothing like what it was supposed to be just didn't work for us.

That sort of thing was one of the reasons we quit ordering from Heirloom.

I suppose you could say that my position is illogical, since I have no problem with Found Roses grown under study names -- but it's not at all the same thing, to me.

Jeri

Jeri

I really do not know what the property was before the 50's. It is in an area that a small creek might have run past before the development, I know that across the street the ball fields area part of a flood plain and I remember the news covering a few forgotten grave sites just up the hill from there (near Juvenal hall) And I think there used to be an old stage coach stop about the same area as the old graveyard (the building burnt down in one of the fires years ago) There has been a lot of road work and development in that area (Hollister Ave) that changed drainage and properties.

Jeri

I think if not held in her space she would have a form very similar to that. But the blooms are more white, much smaller and in sprays. (if I remember correctly)

This is R. odorata rootstock -- you find it all over the place.

Here's another -- this one was collected at Rancho San Julian, and is growing in the Mission Huerta Garden.

Jeri