Rosefolly, join the club! I've discarded more roses than I own, and I own about 86. Admittedly, my conditions here are somewhat unique, and I garden organically, but there is a price to pay for a satisfactory rose garden. It's well worth it.

Le Vesuve to me is much more than a generic pink rose. It's often two-toned in a lovely way, blooms prodigiously in the right climate and just grows and grows, with more and more blooms to show for it. My four all tend to sprawl so I hope you have the room. It is rather thorny, and you don't want to fall partially into one, as I did. However, I would never be without it (or them).

Miss Atwood is a large lady, tall and wide. I've noticed as it's matured the flowers have become larger and more beautiful, and it blooms a great deal. I can sometimes smell its fragrance.

Baronne Henriette de Snoy has gorgeous flowers, but I believe she's not as prolific a bloomer and is said to have very chunky, big canes. Perhaps someone owns this rose and can make further comments.

Regarding Madame Sancy de Parabere, I have a personal prejudice against roses that bloom only once, but that's just me. Many other people don't mind. For a climber, I'd choose Lady Hillingdon, and I have, for its fragrance and constant rebloom. Of course, the color is quite different.

Please let us know what you finally end up with. Choosing is agonizing and fun at the same time.

Ingrid

rosefolly, though in totally different climates, perhaps these may help...

Souvenir de Claudius Denoyel - usually clean, flowered fairly regularly and had a nice scent to my nose.

Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux - had mildew issues at Limberlost Roses years ago. I had to oil the foliage in early spring to keep it mildew free.

White Maman Cochet - an EXCELLENT Tea, though as a young plant, particularly own root, can have mildew issues on new foliage until it produces sufficient roots to overcome the weakness. It's particularly so with the more vigorous climbing plants, but once mature, excellent. I grew it for sale in Van Nuys and Pacific Palisades, loving it both places.

Baronne Henriette de Snoy - mildew issues in spring and fall in Van Nuys, year round in Pacific Palisades, two blocks from the ocean.

Halloween - If you don't have rust and black spot issues on Thanksgiving (I did in Granada Hills, but still LOVED the rose), you should be able to grow Halloween easily. I've always loved most of the Howards roses. Same holds true for Aloha. If Thanksgiving is healthy for you, perhaps Aloha should be, too.

If you like the colors of Halloween and want an intense fragrance, check out the Swim and Ellis rose, Marmalade. Vintage has it VID and it's custom root. It was magnificent for many years (not even VID) in Newhall. Wonderful fragrance, which I doubt is all that 'Tea' as that scent I'm immune to, but I could smell Marmalade from several feet. Gorgeous! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Marmalade

I agree with Ingrid about Le Vesuve - it is apparently a china, and the blooms are large, unlike many chinas. They almost glow sometimes, with the tea rose sort of light pink/medium pink variation within one flower, although they are always pink.

I planted one I rooted about 10 years ago. It grew to its full size in 4-5 years - it is 8 feet high, and 6-7 feet wide, and supports itself. That is because I do not prune it, except to keep it out of the driveway and the path on the other side, and maybe once every 5 years I try to get rid of some of the dead wood. I love it - it blooms here (San Rafael) 11 months of the year. My old old one lived to be 90-100 years old, so on its own roots it should thrive.

It gets a tiny bit of mildew in the Spring, but then grows out of it. I never spray it at all, except perhaps some "deer go away" on the part near the path. Right now it is setting large orange hips, which I use with pomegranites for holiday decorations. This is simultaneous with its Fall bloom, and it looks great. There are lots of pictures of it on HMF - Cass has posted some great ones of full bushes, so you can see what it looks like in the garden.

Jackie

I never

I'm way off climate-wise, but thought I'd tell you about my Madame Sancy de Parabere. I just planted this year so haven't seen it bloom. The foliage is a bit 'thin' or maybe 'spidery'. Lack the weight or denseness so far compared to other ramblers of similar age and purpose. Also, blackspot base 2/3 of shrub.

I know, I was tempted by the $10 offer also...but my 4 rose order for spring, that I placed in August, has already grown to 12! ...so I have to put the breaks on because I know their last release is suppossed to include a lot of OGRs and I my break down then and try to get some of the rarer ones.

What I've been trying to do with the 3 Vintage orders that I placed (Gita/Gregg combined them into one 12 rose order to save on shipping)is order the ones from Vintage that I can't get elsewhere. With them planning on closing in 2013, I would hate to miss out on some must-haves! I've passed over quite a few I really love, but know other nurseries offer them, in exchange for some "Vintage Only" roses :) Happy Shopping!

I'm dropping the rambler Madame de Sancy de Parabere from my list. I didn't like that description of skimpy foliage. I'm going to drop Aloha, too, since I read somewhere (Cass's page?) that it proliferates a lot. I hate proliferation. And even though it was the trigger rose for me, I'm going to drop Bassous Tea. I caught a picture of it somewhere with lots and lots of untidy dried up roses clinging. The romance was over.

Now I have to pick four from the remaining seven. I'm convinced on Le Vesuve, so may be it is really three from the remaining six. I'd like to hear from northern California rose growers about the mildew-ish-ness of Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux and Baronne Henriette de Snoy. I am in an area with only mild ocean influence. (Kim, you are not to suggest more roses for me! This is hard enough already!)

Rosefolly

Rosefolly, my Aloha proliferated a lot, too, and VERY often had those blooms that looked like someone had cut off the top half. They were consistently ugly flowers - nothing like the gorgeous photos I saw. I think in 2 years I saw ONE semi-normal almost-beautiful flower and quite a bit of bs. Aloha is gone.

Thanks for letting me vent about this rose.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry, my pleasure. There is nothing like expressing the disappointment one has in a rose that fails to perform as expected. So many surpass expectations!

My Baronne Henriette de Snoy does very well here in the Oakland hills, a few miles from the bay. Mildew hasn't been a problem.

Colleen

Miss Atwood is one of my favorite tea roses. As Ingrid said, it definitely just keeps getting better with age. Mine bloomed quite regularly throughout this past brutal summer. While the flowers do get a bit smaller in summer, they still stay a reasonable size and are always lovely regardless of the season. As the photos on HMF show, there are usually subtle color variations within each petal that you have to see up close to appreciate. In my climate, the unopened buds just showing color are always pink. When the flower first opens, there is more of an apricot color, but the apricot gets pinker as the flower ages so that from a distance the flowers might have more of a pinky apricot look. The flowers do drop their spent petals cleanly, if that is important to you. I can detect a slight fragrance, but it is definitely not in the "more fragrant" category to my nose.

I've lost two Halloweens. Maybe it's OK once it's established, but seems a weak grower to me. Mine didn't make it through the winter in their gallon pots.

Funny thing -- I woke up in the middle of the night and thought to myself, "I think I'll skip Halloween". Then I went back to sleep. Perhaps I was picking up your thoughts, Pamela.

Thanks to every one for your input so far. It has been very helpful.

So now I'm down to five:

Miss Atwood
Baronne Henriette de Snoy
Le Vesuve
White Maman Cochet
Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux

One more to eliminate. I guess I'll have to ponder these.

Rosefolly

I used the sale as an excuse to order
Honorine de Brabant and
Rodologue Jules Gravereaux.

Hope we both love RJG....

My Baronne Henriette de Snoy was new this last season and is looking fabulous !!!!

Climbing White Maman Cochet is bulletproof and I just put in a very wide arbor for her climbing pleasure.

Here's an idea for you...Vintage is scheduled to close spring of 2013. The idea is to get as many of the rare roses out and about to keep them going. If one person orders Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux, and the next orders something else, instead of duplicating what's already out and about, the chances of saving more, different roses increases with each order. You're not competing with Vintage, but spreading more of their wealth around to archive them. What good does it do for all of us to order the same rose, leaving rarer ones to sit at the nursery with probable narrower distribution? The trick is to get as many different varieties out in circulation so once their source is no longer there, seed plants exist from which to distribute cuttings. Document your gardens on HMF and make cuttings available so we can preserve these things well beyond any closures. Kim

So, Kim, how do we know which ones are "rare"?

By the way, I think your optimism is refreshing (if misguided). :-)))))))

Good morning Susan! How's the replanting going? "Misguided"? I prefer to consider it "optimistic", but then I'm a pessimistic optimist. I HOPE things will work, but I know they aren't going to. What I suggested above is what I've DONE for 27+ years. If the rose wasn't listed as commercially available in Combined Rose List (prior to HMF), I grew it and offered cuttings to any and all who would give it room. I've spread roses around all over the country and even overseas for many years to get good things back into others' hands in hopes of preventing their loss.

Determining if something is rare or not is fairly simple. Look it up on HMF. Read the posts here. If a dozen people are talking about how "X" performs for them, chances are it isn't all that limited in its distribution. Malmaison is in NO danger of being "lost". HMF lists 13 gardens, many of which are American, currently growing it. There are only five American gardens listing Comtesse Emmeline de Guign�. While, for many, there are no gardens listed growing them. This many not actually mean there aren't plants growing in gardens around the country, but it does mean those people either aren't interested in publicizing the fact they grow them or uninterested in the "rose movement". Either way, they aren't available to YOU when you want to obtain the rose because those gardeners don't move in the same circles as you and aren't likely to read your request for cuttings or budwood.

"Lost roses" crawl out of the woodwork all the time, but if there is documentation of their existence, they can be FOUND. There was no knowledge of Cl. Yellow Sweetheart existing anywhere in the world until a chance mention of a "yellow Cl Cecile Brunner" was made on a non rose related Internet forum to a rose lover. That mention led to the rediscovery of a lost Ralph Moore rose which is now growing in peoples' gardens. Carol would have never seen a request for it anywhere because she isn't a "rose grower", but an elderly gardener who grows her plants for her own enjoyment and her husband's alternative "folk" Latino medical practice.

Look them up and see if they're listed all over. It's your choice whether to spend those dollars on something already secure elsewhere, or to secure something not already positioned in gardens where it can be obtained, but if you want to make an effort to preserve it, I'd buy the more limited rose first. I frequently have. Kim

Okay, makes sense. Of course the problem is that most of us aren't really interested in "roses"; we're interested in "our roses". Me too. No question about it. I like discovering beautiful roses that aren't so common, but my interests are entirely personal. That said, I'd also be glad to add something to my garden which is in particular need of saving, which is one of the reasons that I signed up for some of the French roses that Gregg is importing and propagating for distribution in 2013. And, if you see something on the VG list that you think is a high priority for propagation, let me know and I will add it to the order I just made....but just one....

And now I'm going out to put Annie Laurie McDowell in the ground....

Of the ones you mentioned, I only grow Aloha, and it looks like you plan to eliminate that one. However, I love it! It has never proliferated on me in the 7 or 8 years that I've grown it. It has large flowers, good fragrance, healthy foliage, good repeat bloom. In this climate at least it is stellar!

I also happen to love Mme Sancy the most of all the boursault roses, but I don't personally grow it so haven't studied its foliage and disease resistance.

BTW, I looked up the meaning of Rhodologue. It means Rosarian.

Rosefolly

I know we are in different climates but Baronne Henriette du Snoy is a very very healthy rose in my climate. No mildew at all and I do get some in the spring here. Blooms alot. Very healthy, strong plant. I like it very much.

You didn't ask about this one, but if you like hybrid perpetuals, I would suggest Francois Premier. It's a sleeper on Vintage's list of hp's available. It came from Eurodesert and not much has been said about it. I think that may be why Vintage still has it in stock. Only 4 gardens in the US indicate they have it on HMF. The picture of the flower on Vintage's site looks just like it appears in my garden (I bought the mother plant at Eurodesert). It's a red rose with cool tones. Very, very fragrant and packed with petals. CLEAN-leaved. Was so out in Morongo Valley and stayed that way in my garden (about 90 miles west of Eurodesert). Through all the trauma of transplanting, the heat, being doused with water to keep cool before I got it in the ground, this rose didn't show a speck of mildew. Do roses mildew in my garden? Yep, some do. I don't like it. My chinas look awful with mildewy leaves all the time (Mr. Shovel is coming!).:( But I haven't seen any rust or blackspot on it either (at least whatever strain is in my garden this rose didn't get). It's pretty! The whole thing. Gorgeous flowers with heavenly fragrance. Nice medium green leaves. Doesn't have bare knees and isn't fussy. And when I talked to Cliff about his hp's he told me this was one of *his* favorites, and if he was to keep any, this would be one of them.

Melissa

so what happened to change your mind about old Claudius Denoyel? This is the ONE red rose for my home garden (and there are only 6 roses here) which I have finally chosen this season to grow on my outside wall for the delectation of the public. I know Kim gave a terse recommendation but I got a much more glowing one from Paul Barden - isn't he from round your way?
Anyway, for me, it was a close deal between Claudius or the doctor -Souvenir du Jamain - I got both in the end as I will be planting the doc for a friend so get the pleasure of them both.
cheers, suzy

Kim, I think your idea about documenting and sharing our roses is a great idea. I can think of anything "misguided" by it at all. I don't have my roses listed HMF yet but intend to do so and would be happy to share them someday. Don't think I have any rare ones now but they might be rare someday.

I appreciate your ideas about this!

This is why I hate written messages sometimes! I meant to say "I CAN'T think of anything misguided" by your ideas at all! Wonderful ideas.

Ah, Jasper, you misunderstood my post. There is nothing at all misguided about Kim's idea. What I thought was misguided was his optimism about it actually coming to fruition. Your post is almost an example. You think it's a good idea, (of course it's a good idea) but.....someday. Everyone thinks it's a good idea. It's getting it done that is the issue. Kim is an extraordinary person. He does take the time to go out and take cuttings and mail them to other people just for the cost of the postage, but how many people really are going to take the time out of their very busy lives to follow through and do that? Sorry, but my perspective is that we all think we can do a lot more than we are really willing and able to do. It's not that we aren't good enough to want to do it, but it gets put at the end of the list when push comes to shove.

Yes, Kim's idea is fabulous.
It is his optimism about it's being implemented that I found delightfully misguided.

Thank you, I think? As I said, I'm a pessimistic optimist. It's what Rose Rustlers and those engaged in the Old Rose preservation have done for many, many years. At one time, the OGRs were threatened and required these kinds of actions to keep them around so WE can enjoy them. Now, they are fairly secure...as long as those who grow and love them are around. You're already seeing some of the most recent moderns disappearing, and it is only getting worse. If you want them saved, it's time for action and it's going to have to be a marathon rather than a sprint. If you believe in it, do it. Kim

I really do not like these "push/pull" posts and I really do avoid them, however, Landperson, it seems you may be speaking for yourself rather than everyone else. I would say to be careful about that kind of thing; just not a good communication skill in general. That's all I have to say on this subject.

Huh?

Sorry, Jaspermplants, but I have no idea what your point is or what a push/pull post is.

Doesn't everyone speak for him/ or herself?

weeelll! if something was the last rose in the world, it would still not be going in my garden if it was also a duffer. Whilst I clearly have a teeny bit of collecting genes, the rarity of a plant has never been a decider on whether to have it or not. Whether it grows well in my soil, in a particular aspect in a certain style - this is the criteria I use but I do appreciate the need for biodiversity as well. Sometimes, things disappear because they just are not good enough.

I'm sorry if I encouraged or created what you perceive as a "push-pull" post, jaspermplants. That certainly wasn't my intention. None of us can speak for anyone but ourselves and we're all here for varying reasons. The underlying one is our love for beauty, roses in particular. And, many simply want something as beautiful and as trouble free as possible, which is absolutely understandable and valid. Others are very preservation minded, and I admit I belong to both "camps".

I fully agree with campanula about not wasting resources on unhappy or unsuitable plants, of any kind. I've done it and it is tiresome and wasteful. I've personally always tried to grow things few others grew so I could enjoy seeing different things in your garden and enjoy sharing others with you in mine. Yes, there will always be over lap because many will appeal to us both.

I know and respect landperson well enough to be sure she wrote nothing out of disrespect nor intent to offend anyone. That just isn't her style. Her motives for growing roses differ from mine quite a bit, as I'm sure others do, but they are fully as valid as mine or anyone else's.

My main point is to grow what is happy where you grow them and, if at all possible and if it fits your desires, please add some which aren't as widely grown by everyone else. We all have the potential to act as small repositories to preserve those roses which have fallen from grace. I also completely agree that MANY have disappeared because they are either redundant or so terrible and unfortunate that they were even introduced, they deserved to disappear. I've searched for and grown quite a few which fell into that category, even taking location into consideration. There have been many truly unfortunate roses. Thankfully, very many of them have gone the way of the Dodo, never again to curse our gardens with their issues. But, there are still many very good roses which have become orphaned for many reasons, lack of advertising and limited distribution often being their main deficiencies.

Thanks Kim, and my apologies to anyone I offended (not for the first or the last time I am sure).

Kim, I have a question regarding the salvaging of more modern roses. I just went to HMF and did a search for modern fragrant roses and notice that so far none of the "buy from" sources appear to offer own root roses. Do you have a suggestion for searching for modern, own root roses?

Like Camp, I'm only gonna grow a rose because I love it, but there are still lots of those that haven't found their way to my house yet....

I just placed my order with Vintage this morning. Silly how paralyzed I was trying to get it down to four. I simply agonized over it. In the end I dropped Baronne Henriette de Snoy (a mention of mildew susceptibility on HMF) and went with these four.

Miss Atwood
Le Vesuve
White Maman Cochet
Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux

The last three are all described as being more or less rose pink (or in the case of WMC white with rose pink), so I think they will look good together. They are to be planted in a neglected corner by the road that barely grows weeds. The soil there is thin and rocky and devoid of organic matter so I'll be amending that area heavily with compost and alfalfa, and mulch lavishly with wood chips. I'm going to add a rose I bought from the September SJHRG sale to that bed, Edith Perry, a seedling of Bon Silene. It has a bud right now and I can see that it is in that same color family. Jill Perry told me that the other rose I bought there, Plymouth Fence Tea, is also pink, but she didn't say what kind of pink. If it is cool, it will go into that bed. If it is apricot or copper pink, I'll put it on the back fence, my warm-color region. Miss Atwood will go there as well. And the very last spot on that fence is reserved for the European clone of Bouquet d'Or, which I have on order from Vintage.

And that, my friends, will fill up all the spaces I can see for magnificent roses that grow to 10 by 10 and live a hundred years, even up here in the foothills. There are a lots of trees, and I love the trees, too. I used to think that water would be my limiting factor, but it may well be that sunny spots are the thing after all.

I can think of a few spaces where I could tuck in a few small roses. I expect I'd add a few of those as the years go on.

Rosefolly

Campanula, I may get Claudius Denoyel at some point. It is a fine rose in my friend Luanne's garden, and I like healthy, fragrant red roses. I dropped it because I started to focus on creating a new bed in a certain spot, and it was not the right rose for that bed. Your mention of Dr Jamain was appropriate. I bought it after seeing it in Jon-in-Wessex's garden, but it never thrived and eventually the gophers killed it. If it is still available when I place my next order, I probably wlll order it. However, I'm not going to order again until Vintage's next release.

Tessiess, thanks for the recommendation on Francois Premier. I will certainly consider it if it is still available when I next place an order. I do like healthy HPs. Again, it would go into a different bed, especially since HPs seem to thrive in good soil, but I think I can envision an appropriate spot.

Rosefolly

I don't see any way to specify own root plants in the advanced search on HMF. You can include "cuttings" in the search if you're willing to root them yourself. I guess you have to search for HT or other modern class and take a look at the source to see how they produce them. After a little while, you'll remember who buds and who roots. I don't think it's something worth asking for from HMF as the nursery description usually states how they propagate, while they wouldn't put that information on each rose entry. Kim

Kim, I have a question regarding the salvaging of more modern roses. I just went to HMF and did a search for modern fragrant roses and notice that so far none of the "buy from" sources appear to offer own root roses. Do you have a suggestion for searching for modern, own root roses?

I found one answer to my own question by going to the Vintage site and doing a search using "year introduced" as my primary criterion. Since all of their roses are own root, I can bring up roses from 2010, then 2009, then 2008, etc....

Not bad

Here is a link that might be useful: searching by year introduced at Vintage

You can't do it that way on HMF, but Vintage, being an own root producer allows you to see what'a available that way. You can also see what Burlington carries and be sure they're own root. She only offers budded on special things like Grey Pearl and they are, of course, more expensive. Conard Pyle is offering some own root and you can see Week's own root stuff as their shrublets, or you used to be able to. I haven't looked much since their take over. Kim

I found an interesting article about propeller polishing

Here is a link that might be useful: Cleaning and polishing of propellers

This post was edited by adziev on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 16:53