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| Hello, I am going to plant 'Isabella Sprunt' in my parent's garden, also asking about Safrano because I assume it will be the same size (IS is a sport of Safrano). Are Safrano/IS relatively small for tea roses?? Say, 6'X6' mature size in soCal?? Thanks!! Nate |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Sat, Nov 9, 13 at 17:00
| Here in the No SF Bay area, I have a Safrano which is about 40 years old growing in partial shade (non-the-less it blooms at least 10 months of hte year). It is about 5 ft wide and 6 ft tall. Jackie |
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| I've never seen one that was really big. Smaller than that, I'd say. Here's a very old one in an old NoCal cemetery. Not so big -- but you could see that it had been cut to the ground in the past, and grown back. Jeri |
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| Thanks to you both. That Safrano looks good enough to eat, amazing what man and nature put together in that one. |
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| I take back that size comment, though. In the current issue of the Heritage Roses Group "Rose Letter," there are several OF Connie Hilker's photos of an old 'Safrano' in Richmond, VA's Hollywood Cemetery. It is easily 7 ft. tall. So, that's what John Pearce's 'Safrano' COULD be like, had it not been chopped down multiple times. Our thanks to Connie, for both the photos, and the article they accompany. Jeri |
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| Well, that's a little different....it looks like it could easily be 8'X8'. Because my parents have good soil at their house I think I'll go ahead and give them the space. You newsletter is INTERESTING, Jeri :-) |
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| We aim to try, RainGreen. I was the editor for 8 years, but Darrell Schramm, as current editor, has brought a whole new slant to the publication. Jeri |
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- Posted by jardineratx 9tx (My Page) on Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 12:02
| My Safrano is around 9 years old and when I measured this morning, I found that it is about 7 foot tall and 11 foot wide. Unfortunately, it has become a "two cane wonder" and I am really conflicted on how to deal with it. I have never pruned it very hard, trimming only the branches that encroach the driveway, but I am contemplating cutting it down to about 1/3 its height this spring, to see if it will rejuvenate. I think the deer chewing on it has been at least partly responsible for the awkward form. Molly |
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| Thank you for measuring Molly!!! "When an old tea looks worn out, if cut right down in March or April it will often throw out vigorous young growth, and quite renew its life" Gertrude Jekyll, p. 83 in Wood and Garden. I had seen them do this with Lady Hillingdon at the LA Arboretum, and the plants appeared to respond well (I had seen them a couple of months after coppicing, having sprouted many new shoots) but I haven't been back to observe the plants. |
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| BUT -- that sort of firm pruning can kill an older Tea Rose. Some fool hard-pruned a huge old Devoniensis at the historic Santa Rosa Cemetery, and it just -- died. If I wanted to do something like that, I would whittle away at it very gradually. Well, no -- I say "I would," but the truth is, I wouldn't. Maybe I would just plant a small one, right next to it. Call me a coward . . . Jeri |
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- Posted by jardineratx 9tx (My Page) on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 13:10
| Actually, Jeri, I also considered just cutting my losses, and replacing Safrano with another tea, particularly since I have a young potted Madame Lombard, a Thomasville Old Gold, and a M. Antoine Rebe and probably any one of them would be a good replacement for my old battered Safrano. This would also give me an opportunity to correct the placement error I made when I planted Safrano....it was too close to the driveway. Molly |
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| That might be the way to go. Jeri |
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| I once cut a Mutabilis that was looking poorly to the point where only the framework of thick old canes was left. It was a good move since it enabled me to discover the previously hidden gopher hole which explained Mutabilis' declining looks. I had no real idea of what would happen but that rose came back like gangbusters and now, about three years later, still looks great. Still, the two-caned Safrano might react completely differently, since there isn't much there to work with. Since you have other roses to replace it, I suppose it might be a worthwhile experiment to see what happens after a drastic haircut. Ingrid |
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| Yes. I think if there was (as with your Mutabilis) a framework of major canes, that might work. As it is . . . But I'll say this ... If you were going to do something like that, I would do it in summer heat, when it was semi-dormant. NOT in winter. Jeri |
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| To my amazement,when I was volunteering at Vintage gardens I saw Gregg prune a Tea back by c. one third, It was a mature Tea, that was c. 7 feet tall and the main "trunk" of the plant appeared old. He said that in the next year it would grow back to about the same size. I saw it the next year, and he was right, it had grown back swiftly. One third is the maximum I would prune an Old Garden Tea, back by, leaving 2/3rds of the growth. The only exemption I have seen to the "prune Teas rarely and sparely rule" with my own eyes is Lady Hillingdon, which some believe is a Hybrid Tea by breeding (a cultivar that has been bred from a Tea that was crossbred with a Hybrid Perpetual pollen parent. I've seen 3 plants regularly pruned back to keep these at 4' to 5' tall in a public rose park, with no harm done over more than a decade, to the plants. They had a lovely bed of Safrano at the Berkeley Botanical garden for many years (just to the right of the long arbor as you go up the stairs) that to my utter surprise they kept pruned at between c. 3 and 1/2 feet tall to 4' tall for years. There are some Tea roses that are more hardy to cold, because of a high percentage of Bourbon blood ('Adam' for instance) and I believe that one MIGHT prune a few of the Tea roses that have Hybrid Perpetual or more Bourbon in their lineage, to a greater degree than the Teas with a higher percentage of R. chinensis X R. odorata "blood" as it is called. I'd only prune the Teas that I've seen with my own eyes in the same area, or conditions, as hard as the ones I've mentioned. |
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| Thanks Lux. It'd be interesting to find first hand information on the horticulture and pruning of the winter blooming teas like 'Safrano' and 'Papa Gontier', when they were cultivated for cut flowers on the Riviera. |
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| From the size of the plants I've seen in old photos, they were allowed to be huge, and floriferous. Jeri |
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- Posted by Sidos-House 7 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 6:36
| Very interesting and very helpful thread. |
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| It looks like Teas can't be pruned at the sides to control spread, because it makes them look scraggly//they don't fill in again? The full-bush shots of mature Teas that were given their head looked better than the garden Teas at Huntington Botanical Gardens which must have been limbed up or had spreading basals removed at some point. |
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