No. I have one here, and it is pretty clean, even tho it isn't in a great location. So I really DO think it is superior. (And I have grown both, in pretty close proximity.)

Glendora, by contrast, really isn't all that happy here.
Go figure. I must have the only place in the world that thing isn't happy.

Jeri

I really love Archduke Charles and Mrs Dudley Cross. Don't have a single problem with them, and they're huge. Maman Cochet and Niles Cochet have done really well. I also adore Leveson Gower, but it mildews.

In my part of the world, Mrs. Dudley Cross mildews.

Marie van Houtte, similar in color, but a bigger plant, has no disease problems here.

Jeri

I love all those great pics., Celsiana by Lavender_lass grows like a weed? That's my type of rose. Looking at Diane's Old Town Novato, I realize that she has chlorosis and alkalinity like mine ... Thanks, Diane, for the info. of Felicite Pamentier being wimpy. It does well for Niels' acidic clay, but I'm not sure about my alkaline clay.

I love Jeri's Barbara's Pasture Rose. I'll look into Gallicas like Diane suggested ... I believe Melissa in Italy like Gallicas too in her alkaline clay.

Question for Diane: is your soil alkaline sandy,or alkaline clay? Jeri once reported Crimson-glory own-root as wimpy in her soil, I was afraid to try ... but it does really well in my wet alkaline clay. Crimson-Glory is the healthiest HT in my garden, blooms well.

People don't grow roses much around here, and what I do usually see are large-flowered Hybrid Teas and such bought at the local garden center. That said, nobody plants 'Centifolia' (or any other once-blooming rose) but it's the commonest old rose in the area, surviving near-universal neglect. I've run across a few plants of 'Alba Maxima' and of 'Old Blush'. Not antiques, but passalong roses and great survivors are the old HT 'Mme. Jules Bouche', and, what is still going to be growing in this area a century from now, 'Queen Elizabeth'.

Thanks, Melissa, for info. on neglected-but-thrive roses,that's my type .... I have my kid to baby, so I don't have time to baby roses. High Country Roses have a sale now, $12 to $13 on Austins and ALL THEIR ROSES (lots of Old Garden, hardy species). Felicite Parmentier on sale for $13 ... I can't resist.

Hopefully Diane will inform me if her soil is alkaline clay or alkaline sand. I'm a bit hesistant with Felicite Parmenter being wimpy for Diane. Eglantyne as a band from High Country Roses was wimpy and died last winter, so I bought a HUGE-GALLON size, almost 2 feet tall Eglantyne and its root shrinks on me the second-time in my alkaline clay.

I'd have to agree with Brittie in Houston on Archduke Charles and Mrs Dudley Cross. I'd add SDLM, and I have no complaints about Mrs B R Cant. I'll let you know in a couple of years how Grandmother's Hat likes my area.

Jackie, beautiful roses! 90 years old!!! WOW!

Kim,

Here we have outrageous black spot, rare mildew and no rust. My personal experience on clay subsoil: The best roses have been Mme. Plantier, White Rose of York and Stanwell Perpetual with no black spot and good bloom. Souvenir de la Malmaison, Zephrine Drouhin and Gruss an Aachen have minimal black spot and not much bloom. In their defense, they are in shady locations. Cecile Brunner and Blush Noisette have bloomed well in full sun. It has been a long time since I have seen them but I do not remember them having black spot so if they did, it wasn't much.

If I were you and wanted a more complete survey of roses that grow well in this area, I would contact: Garden of Roses of Legend and Romance in Wooster, Ohio, Telephone Kelly King @330-263=3612 or email her @ king.1364@osu.edu

Cath

Thanks, Cath. Kim

Strawberryhill, sorry for the delay. Haven't had time to post. My soil is clay in one area and sandy in another but Felicite Parmentier has been in a pot for several years with good potting soil and a mulch of compost/manure. By the way, High Country is sold out of FP. The plant I got from them never had much vigor and when it bloomed this year all the buds opened deformed. Am thinking of trying FP from Pickering in the future.

Kim, thanks for the run down of roses in your area.

Melissa, I'm surprised to hear that antique roses aren't more widely grown in your area.

Anita, Perle d'Or is a treasure.

Thanks everyone for your interesting responses.

Diane

Oh my goodness Jackie, those roses are amazing! 90 years old and is there any reason why folks don't grow more of the old roses. You get your money's worth and then some. Not to mention preserving a bit of history for future generations.

Keep up the good work,
Cydney

Here is a link that might be useful: The Old Garden Rose Blog

Love the list Lux!!

Wow Lux, that's quite a list. Thanks very much for posting.

Diane

Lux, we have quite the same tastes. How about sharing photos?
Thanks!
Susan

With only a few exceptions -- we have less winter chill -- Lux's choices would work here. And they're roses I love, too.

:-)

Jeri

Jeri, which would you remove from Lux's list for this area?

Diane,

Do try FP from Pickering! I have her at my old house, planted I think 2004, and she's wondrous.

So wondrous that she's my very favorite rose...and when we moved in 2010 I got 2 more FP, but I got them as own-root bands (no WAY was I going to move the grafted plant...FPs thorns are monstrous).

Own-root (I have alkaline clay soil amended well) she has sulked for 2 years. So much so that I'm going to pot her up next year and hope I can somehow force more above-ground growth before finding her a better spot.

~Anika

Here is a link that might be useful: GothicLibrarian.net

What would I remove? Not much. Let's see . . .
COMMENTS IN CAPS. And I added a couple of things.

China
Archduke Charles (CAN BALL IN WET WEATHER, BUT OTHERWISE A GREAT ROSE!)
ADD: ORANGE SMITH -- LOOKS LIKE A.C., FEWER PETALS, NEVER BALLS, COMPLETELY CLEAN.

Tea
Mme. Berkeley (the most disease resistant garden rose in my garden)
Anna Olivier -- LADY ROBERTS! (very fragrant VERY DISEASE FREE!)
Mrs. Dudley Cross (REMOVE! MILDEWS)
Rosette Delizy
Comtesse Emmeline de Guigne REFUSED TO GROW HERE. WE GAVE IT 5 YEARS, IT GOT UP TO 12-INS.
NILES COCHET -- BLOOMS BALL, BUT ARE STILL PRETTY. NO DISEASE. CONSTANT BLOOM.

Monsieur Tillier
Rosette Delizy very clean.
Clementina Carbonieri clean when mature. (TRIED 5 TIMES. WON'T GROW HERE.)
Mrs. B.R. Cant
souvenir de Pierre Notting is nearly clean but it has an unsightly finish as does (YES. UNSIGHTLY FINISH, BUT OTHERWISE GOOD)

mild to moderate p.m. when it rains:
Mme. Alfred Carriere (MILDEWS LIKE MAD. NEVER AGAIN!)
Mme. Lombard (MILDEWS A LITTLE, BUT GETS BETTER EVERY YEAR.
Etoille de Lyon (CAN BALL IN WET WEATHER, OTHERWISE GREAT.)

Tea-Noisette
Lamarque (nearly spotlessly clean)
Crepescule (equally disesae resis.) BUT WON'T GROW MUCH HERE

Reve d'Or' (COMPLETELY DISEASE FREE HERE, ALWAYS. BLOOMS ALL YEAR ROUND).
Marachel Niel (WOULDN'T GROW HERE)
Mme. Alfred Carriere gets the most powdery mildew (MILDEWED ALL THE TIME! NEVER AGAIN!)

Cemetary Musk' from sacramento cemetary. simple five petaled blooms of a blush pink. long bloom season, still blooming in November.

Polyantha
all the forms of Mlle. Cecille Brunner, the spray form has the longest bloom cycles and best re-bloom, look for long feathery sepals.

Perle d'Or nearly as disease resistant
Marie Pavie also very good and easy to grow. Lovely scent.

Hybrid Perpetual
Grandmothers Hat some rust late in the year, but it is still blooming in November with the Tea roses.
Baronne Prevost
Mrs. John Laing RUSTED LIKE AN OLD BUCKET. ALL YEAR LONG.

Damask and D.P.s (I ONLY GROW AUTUMN DAMASK. I THINK SHE'D LIKE A LITTLE MORE WINTER, BUT SHE'S COMING ALONG)
Autumn Damask

Bourbon MOST BOURBONS ARE HOPELESS HERE.
Boule de Neige some b.s. but not enough to bother me.
s.d.l.m. healthy but doesn't open in spring or autumn in cool weather. (HALF NOISETTE! ALWAYS HEALTHY HERE, BLOOMS THROUGH THE YEAR, DOES NOT BALL HERE, GO FIGURE)

RAGGED ROBIN (GLOIRE DES ROSOMANES) A 12-MO. BLOOM FACTORY WITH NO DISEASE. CALLED A BOURBON. ACTS MORE LIKE A CHINA)

Hybrid Musk
Cornelia (LOVELY HERE!)
Lavender Dream

Gallica:
Apothecary Rose (GREW FOR 3-4 YEARS, THEN GREW BACKWARDS.)

duchess de brabant (FINALLY GOT ONE THAT DON'T MILDEW!)
Lady Hillingdon (ALWAYS CLEAN HERE IN A DIFFICULT SPOT)

Jeri

Thanks Jeri!

Questions:

s.d.l.m. I thought I remember you saying it does not do well? Am I confused? (it happens easily!)

Mrs B R Cant, another I thought you said is not wonderful in our foggy weather

and Crepescule, do you mean she stays small or is not happy?

You're right. I missed SdlM. It is gar-BAGE here.
MOST Bourbons are poor prospects here, but that is one of the worst.
Yes, yes. I KNOW it is great elsewhere.
It's bad HERE.

Mrs. B.R. Cant has been in the ground here for maybe 18 years. It is perhaps 5 ft. tall, not very broad. Nowhere near the vigorous plant it is said to be, in most places.
But I may just have a poor clone. It has no disease problems, and blooms reasonably well, so it remains here.

Crepuscule. We tried at least 3 own-root plants. It did NOT wish to grow, here.
Now, we have a budded plant, and it is probably 2.5 ft. tall. That is HUGE progress!

So, it is slowly growing, and it blooms, and it has no disease. But would I recommend it to my neighbor? No.

The only yellow Tea-Noisette that does well here is Reve d'Or, and it does spectacularly well -- so guess which one I would recommend. :-)

Jeri

Diane,
You're welcome,
oh, I forgot these:

Celine Forestier very disease resistant now, in its second year.
Lamarque. Spotless
Mermaid very clean nearly all year round, and is nearly as evergreen here as Lamarque
I have it espaliered against a tall wooden fence to keep it from overtaking the universe. It can be a prickly monster if grown full sized.

Lux.

P.S. to Susan, I haven't figured out how to post with my camera yet.
but thanks for the offer, I am all thumbs when it comes to tech. and am dyslexic

Lux, I can vouch for Lamarque. Not a trace of disease in part shade. Waiting to see how well it will bloom. Jaune Desprez is also disease free.

Diane

More additions from 3 local no-spray gardens including my own, in the east San Francisco Bay area:
I second Jeri's mentioning of Gloire des Rosomanes, it is a very fine rose .

Certainly foolproof:
de la Grifferaie: I am swept off my feet by how romantic a plant this appears. Grown locally as a self supporting rosebush that is grown in the shape of a willow tree. Picture a solitary "trunk" rising from the ground, and bare of branches up to c. 4 feet, now the graceful supple canes rise up and over spilling forth a bounty of beauty... mauve touched with red, roses. Heartbreakingly beautiful. very well foliaged,
-This is a plant that is worth much more than the sum of its' flowers.

Also foolprrof
Maybe someone could come up with a jester icon for roses. This Tea had a fair amount of p.m. the first year as a band sized plant, but it has been clean ever since its second year in my garden:
Westside Road Cream Tea' I love this rose so much I considered putting a border of it all around my propery, clean, fragrant and beautiful elegant luscious blossoms.
Much better locally than 'Ducher' which defoliates from p.m. more than 70%.
pre-Peace H.T.s
Souvenir du Claudius Denoyal' I wondered why this fragrant red Hybrid Tea that has been described as having crimson with vermillion hues, has evergreen foliage in our climate and blooms through early December, when most h.t.S stop blooming here in late October. I think it may because it is only five generations distant from a Tea rose ancestor: via its' pollen parent, four generations back is 'La France' which has a Tea parent.
_________________________________

'La France' elegant long pink buds, va-va-va voom fragrance. slender wood. I really love this rose.
Augustine Guinoisseau' white La France,
Etoille de Holland, climbing. very disease resistant, even in december the foliage is clean. another fragrant red rose, my neighbors love, love, love this rose that has big wide petals, and few of them, but it still gives the impression of a fuller bloom.
The Radiance Clan, radiance, red radiance, Mrs. Charles Bell, Careless Love.

Pernetiana roses
Autumn' Coddington 1928
a wowser of a rose in Autumn, orange with red edges with some mauve tones.
Dainty Bess' still popular after all these years.
Duquesa de Penaranda, Cantaloupe and orange, if I lived in a cold climate where I couldn't grow Lady Roberts, I would grow this rose instead, and be content. Pretty foliage too.
Condesa des Sastago' Until I smelled the Pernetiana rose named President Hoover, this was my favorite Pernetiana.
The blooms have a rounded shape from a Polyantha relative.
Etoille de Feu' a really special rose for those who love orangey hues,and starry pointed petal edges, almost spikey. I'd love a row of these budded onto rootstock with Sutters' Gold behind them, another healthy rose here.
'Gruss an Coberg' very floriferous for a H.T., as disease resistant as any H.T. I've seen grown locally. This would be grand in a bed with 'Distant Drums'
Mari Dot' Dot 1927 a very small rosebush. I'd love one on rootstock.
Mrs. Sam McGredy' some blackspot, one of the canadians had the climbing form of this for sale on rootstock a couple years ago.
President Herbert Hoover. One of the most wonderfully frut-scented roses I've ever put my nose to. worth the bit of blackspot, I had the climbing form but my neighbors dog dug it up, right after it was transplanted, and gnawed on the roots so badly, the plant died.

Soliel d'or'
does just fine locally, where temperatures favor powdery mildew over blackspot. I think this might possibly fit better in the H.p. class because of its' growth habit, foliage and shape of bloom,
if it were not for the orange juice color of the roses... but just now the song "I'm a lonely little petunia in an onion patch" comes to mind.
It wouldn't be right to make it the only flame colored rose in its class.

its nearly four am. I must stop thinking about roses,
good night...morning... i mean.
Lux

I agree that Perle D' Or is fantastic. I can't honestly remember any issues with this plant except it being mad at being dug up and moved. Once it got over that, no disease -none- no bugs no blooming issues. Heat doesn't ruin the flowers neither does rain. The same is true for Rita S. which is in the same bed. I have not tried either in partial shade. They sit right by the front path like monarchs.
The other rose I had such perfection from was mutabilis but I lost it when I tried to move it when we had to have plumbers out to work on the main drain line one summer.

Close runner up is Gruss An Aachen in late day sun in a difficult spot and still looking like a champion.

My old Perle is from Roses of Yesterday & Today from the 80's and still going strong. Incredible plant.

Both in Fl. and up here in the N.GA. mountains, it has always been Pink Pet. Stick a twig of it in the ground and get out of the way.

Jeri, I'm relieved to read that your Mrs. B.R. Cant is a laggard in your garden as well. I had read it was the vigorous monster and for us it's staying quite small - around 4' so far and suffering a certain amount of cane blackening and die-back each season. But it seems overall healthy and has lovely blooms, so it stays here as well.
Crepuscule has also performed weakly here, staying small, but is healthy and produces a few lovely blooms a year so we haven't given up yet. Clementina Carbonieri is growing very slowly for us and even Reve d'Or (we have 3)is performing barely adequately in only one instance. We keep thinking that it's our heavy clay soil and alkaline water, so will try more things this year: soil sulphur, water with lemon juice, azomite, more mycorrhyzae, coffee grounds etc. Any other suggestions?

Linda -- Funny thing about some roses performance.

The Safrano we planted long long ago was such a weakling it never grew, and is long gone. The "John Pearce" Safrano we collected a few years ago in NoCal is quite vigorous, and growing well. (It was also gorgeous where we collected it.)

Our several tries at purchased plants of Duchesse de Brabant all resulted in mildewy messes. The Duchesse de Brabant from an old NoCal cemetery is a wonderful thing (as it was in the cemetery).

Lux -- Alice Flores collected a plant sn'd "Hannalie's Honey," which is thought to be Mari Dot, and which grows well, I'm told, in Mendocino and also up near Visalia.

I know what you mean about De la Grifferaie. It didn't like to grow here -- we're far too alkaline -- but it's a beauty. Kernel Mel Hulse often said that, if De la Grifferaie were remontant, it would be among the world's most popular roses. I agree!

There was an old and lovely Soleil d'Or at a historic home here. Over my protests, they attempted to move it. Good-bye Soleil d'Or. :-(

Jeri

I have lots of foolproof roses. Now to try to limit to antiques (I have many species roses that are no trouble at all, but maybe include these in another thread?). In my garden I use many native California plants as companions to my roses, and those natives really do not like much/any fertilizer and prefer low water, so my rose choices need to be compatible with this kind of care. Also, my gardening style is benign neglect, so you can see where this is going, plants that require constant tending with lots of food and water just aren't gonna get it! Pruning is out as well.;) And the results are prima donnas don't survive under these conditions.

Here are some of my best and favorite antique roses, not in any particular order, excpet that I mentally walked through my garden, and selected some of the best ones in the areas they are planted :

Felicite Parmentier, alba, she has been a wonderful and reliable rose for me for close to 20 years. Blooms profusely every year in partial shade for about 2 months in spring. Intensely fragrant blooms with a button eye. Ultra pale pink. Foliage is the typical bluish tone of albas and clean as a whistle. Has been abused over the years (including hacked to the ground at least once by the gardener), and goes some years with no feeding whatsoever to no apparent ill effect. Love, love, love this rose! Own root from Heirloom.

York and Lancaster, damask, is now a giant after growing for a couple decades never being pruned. A thorny beast though.... Grows through and supported by several large neighbor bushes and when in bloom, the perfume wafts EVERYWHERE. Trouble free, healthy foliage. Rarely fed. Own root from Heirloom or Antique Rose Emporium (I forget which!--would have to reach my hand into a minefield of thorns to see if the tag is still attached)

Jenny Duval, gallica, she likes it here. Gobbles up territory whenever she has the chance, but I don't mind since she is so pretty. Is a blooming fool every spring, a spectacular sight. Very fragrant. Covers herself in mauvey/pinky flowers that line my garden walk with color. Very healthy and dependable. Own root from Heirloom.

Madame William Paul, moss, another garden path decorator. Absolutely gorgeous. She lives in partial shade. A favorite of my neighbors for her profuse and colorful blooms. Intense fragrance. Beautiful moss. Decided to harvest a hip this year, and now have a seedling or two. Own root from Heirloom.

Baronne Prevost, hybrid perpetual, grows by a seasonal stream in a foothill garden where I've kept my horses. Planted in 2003 or 2004, has never been pruned, and now climbs into the adjacent eucalyptus trees. Flowers almost year round, very fragrant, sets hips too. No disease. Never fed. Gets plenty of fertilizer though, probably from plentiful supply of local rabbits, squirrels, birds, etc. Own root from Vintage.

Portland from Glendora, a found rose from the almost-next-door city of Glendora. Some rosarians believe this is the damask perpetual Joasine Hanet. Lives in partial shade here. Very vigorous. Profuse bloomer, fragrant. Like the others, receives low water and food. Own root from Eurodesert.

Rene d'Anjou, moss, have had about a year. Pink. What a lovely surprise he has been. Now over 5 feet tall, from a bareroot in December 2011. Lightly fed while getting established with fairly diluted fish fertilizer only. Lush foliage. An elegant plant. Gave me 4 large flushes that went on for weeks at a time. Not only are the flowers fragrant, but so is the moss AND the leaves. From Pickering, grafted on multiflora.

Comtesse O'Gorman, hybrid perpetual, this has to be one of the most beautiful of all red roses, a cool blue-red. Flowers look like peonies. A lower, mounding/spreading grower, as compared to some of my other jolly green giants! Will tip root. Flowers are packed with petals and very, very fragrant. Plentiful dark green leaves. From Eurodesert, likely grafted (don't remember noticing one way or another when planting) but I don't know on what.

Abbe Bramerel, hybrid perpetual, is a very unusual hp. Likes a little shade, that's nothing all that different, but the flowers, well they are something really special. A unique color that I find nearly impossible to get with a digital camera. Purplish-reddish-brownish-lavenderish???? Whatever, the camera can't get it even close. Except for one photo (that I can't seem to locate on the web anymore) by Cliff Orent. Moderately fragrant. Starts blooming in January, yes JANUARY!! Flowers also last a very long time on the plant without appearing to look aged (they look pristine). Appears to like the dry heat of my area too. A fascinating plant. From Eurodesert, may be grafted (don't remember) but I don't know on what.

Francois Premier, hybrid perpetual, a classical red rose with all the fragrance one often hopes to get on a red rose, but is often disappointed. Not so here! Flowers in the old-fashioned many-petalled style. Grows in a neat, vase shape appropriate for smaller spaces. Medium green leaves remain clean year round. A very fine rose. From Eurodesert, and like the preceding 2, may be grafted.

Marchesa Boccella/Jacques Cartier, hybrid perpetual. A delightful pink rose and very reliable. Blooms repeatedly throughout the year. Of demure size so far, a round mound of leaves. No disease. Produces lots of cheerful pink, fragrant pompom flowers. From Antique Rose Emporium last year, own root.

Melissa

Most foolproof? I had to think about that and figured out you don't mean perfect. There's no perfect rose in my garden. After this summer I'm not sure I could even give you a short list of roses I'm fairly happy with. They all have had issues and looked ugly for extended periods this year. They are finally improving now, but I don't think I'll give you a list of the standard tried-and-true roses for Florida. We know which ones they are, and I'm a little past the point of raving about any of them as maintenance-free and beautiful all the time. They're not. Well, I will say that Reve d'Or is the closest to perfect and zero-maintenance (I don't do anything to her), and I'll add that Clotilde Soupert is superb now with big, fat, gorgeous, fragrant flowers and lush foliage. We'll see what next year brings. I think the ones I have might ALL make the list. Hmmm, or am I just hopelessly optimistic - again.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Zone 5 - Chicago area:
Madame Hardy
Belle De Crecy
Rose de Rescht

I have Felicite Parmentier and that is my favorite although last year I had some issues with her and Tuscany superb they kind some kind of crud and did not do well here. First year they ever did that.

Is there one of the list below that you would plant on the north side of a fence? Might get some morning sun and some afternoon. Right now there is a tree that shades the area all the time but is going to be removed. Not sure how much sun will be there once it is gone. (might end up planting something different so if none of these would be happy that is okay too)

Thanks for the help!

Arch Duke Charles
Lady Ann Kidwell
Reve d'Or
Secret Garden Musk
Marie Pavie
Lady Hillingdon

I would go for Secret Garden Musk. But of course that kind of primitive plant in general appeals to me--also is likely good around here as well as on the coast. Marie Pavie sounds like a good choice too. I've seen polyanthas all over southern Cal doing well, often in shady spots. Teas and chinas on the other hand are the worst possible roses here, so I have a hard time recommending them for anyone near me, but you are on the coast where they do very well with the extra humidity in the air. I have Archduke Charles, and like others of his class, are prone to diseases. His worst proclivity is rust, for which I shovel-pruned him. Back into a pot though, because no matter how terrible a rose is, I just don't have the heart to actually kill one. Lady Ann Kidwell I saw at Eurodesert in the polyantha area. She was HUGE and looked very healthy. Flowers of a color and shape not to my taste, but I still had to admire the sheer robustness of the plant (in full sun fyi).

Melissa

Barbara's Pasture Rose

How big does it get? And does anyone sell it?

Ha Ha I have a short Crepuscule as well. Thought it was just me. I'm just letting it be. Who knows. It's not diseased and it blooms off and on.

Kim my La Reines are doing ok no rust or bs in central OC. What about Henry Nevard? is this worthwhile for the LA area?

I tried a Paul Neyron from Wayside way back when. Same as everyone here said. Felecia has been great and Blush Boursault gets better every year. That rose along with Albertine are my once blooming champions. No bugs,diseases or anything. Albertine's very thorny though but BB's a JOY! No thorns and very pretty smooth red canes. I would have a tall wall of BB if it bloomed more. It's gets fall foliage where the weather is cooler but I'm happy with mine just the same. BB hates hard pruning. One of the first roses to bloom and I look forward to it every year.

Kippy -- "Barbara's Pasture Rose" might be described as being "La Reine-on-Steroids." The blooms from a mature plant are enormous, and very fragrant.

I have it, here, and it is reasonably disease-free, despite not being planted in a great location. Truth-to-tell, I should probably give it to someone who can give it better conditions. It deserves that.

The mature plant in the Sacramento City Cemetery is easily 5 ft. tall and around. A big ball of a bush.

Here's a pix that gives you a good idea of the bloom, and a sorta idea of the plant.

Jeri

Jeri,

I remembered your "on steroids" comment....but how big is that? I take it bigger than the 5x5.

It is such a pretty rose in your photos.

Kitty, I grew Henry Nevard as a budded, badly virused, ROYAT plant in my original Granada Hills garden between 1985 and 1989. He flowered fairly regularly but I seldom got to see and enjoy a nice one as even with shade from other plants, they fried terribly, even without reflected/radiated heat from the house wall. Rust was a severe issue with him. I'd hoped he would have improved when moved to Newhall, but after two years in that canyon, he wasn't any better, so I dumped him.

I can believe the rambler is healthy for you. One of the most consistently healthy roses I've ever grown is Silver Moon. Nothing slows that freight train down! It just barrels its way through bad soil, inhospitable conditions, vermin, heat, cold, nothing stops it! I had to obtain it and Marissa Fishman at Greenmantle was my original source. I had to allow the huge plant in the old garden to be bull dozed, but I'd rooted plants of it for the HOA to use on fences as security plants and I snitched cuttings from one of them just a few years ago to bring home. It's clean here in this semi coastal climate. I've known people who have successfully used Silver Moon as a decent root stock, if that suggests how successful a rose it is! Kim

I've never been able to get 'La Reine' herself to grow above 3 ft., or perhaps slightly less. AND it inevitably rusts.

When I have seen it in spring, BPR has been close to 5 ft.
When I have seen it in Fall, it has been easily 6 ft.

But I also wanted to say that in my conditions, one of the most foolproof Old Roses I know -- and the most disease-resistant and generous of bloom -- is 'Gloire des Rosomanes.'

In my conditions, it grows as well as an weed, and is rarely without color, through the year. All hail "Ragged Robin."

Jeri

OH NO. I see Ingrid grows Bourbons ok, Jerijen and Fogrose say no way, all in zones 9/10. I know these zones vary tremendously. I just ordered SDLM and Mme. Isaac Pereire for my dry, hot, sand. Will they survive here?

Harmony, I don't know about SDLM. She's a mess here, but pretty good as a mature plant in the Sacramento City Cemetery.

Mme. Isaac Pereire -- ACH!

She is much-addicted to rust in most places I've seen her in CA -- Maybe good elsewhere? I've been down that road, and she'll never darken my garden door again. Beautiful bloom! But I think, one of those roses meant to be shown in an English Box. (She excels at that, btw.)

Her sport, Mme. Ernst Calvat, is a better rose here -- marginally. But she, too, finally tried our patience too far.

Jeri

Oh, I must be in love with Crepuscule. I lost it to the ground 6 years ago due to some yet identified problem, and it has rebounded in all its glory. A beautiful scurrbling bubbling bath of apricot golden posies in spring and many flushes through fall. Try it. You will love it. Now the bouquet may not compare to Jaune Desprez, but neither does Chanel or Estee Lauder.

I enjoyed re-reading this informative thread. Lots of good info. The best oldies in our coastal garden are Gilbert Nabonnand (grew fast, but has naked legs so we plant in front of them), Mme. Lambard, Monsieur Tillier, Angel's Camp Tea (Octavius Weld in Australia I think)that has astonised us with rapid growth and beautiful blooms, Lady Anne Kidwell, bush Cecile Brunner of course, Perle d'Or, Alister Stella Gray, Cl. Lady Hillingdon, Mme Berard,Daybreak (HM), Gruss an Aachen (although slow to build), Gloire des Rosomanes (tho virused). Laggards include Clementina Carbonieri, General Gallieni, Reve d'Or (yes, go figure), Niles Cochet, Rozette Delizy and others. None of these are hopeless, though, so we let them grow slowly - all are healthy. We've had few real duds, thanks to good recommendations from Jeri and others.

LBuzzell, I have grown everyone that you mentioned and agree they are all healthy but they are no match for Roundup. (Please do not watch me. I am crying).

So sorry to hear about that, patricia. I HATE Roundup and wish people realized how toxic it is and not just for plants but people, other animals and waterways too. So many gardeners have been fooled into thinking it does no damage.

Linda -- We finally have a very vigorous 'Gen. Gallieni' -- a cutting from the one Gean grew in AL. It's everything a Nabonnand Tea should be. :-)

Kim -- 'Silver Moon' is -- finally -- growing well here, but it hasn't the loveliest foliage, and it doesn't bloom much.

Jeri

Most Chinas, Teas & Polyanthas just do great, but the absolute most idiot-proof of all is:

"Caldwell Pink".

Asks for nothing except good light. I had its clippings routinely root on the compost pile before I turned it. Such an easy, willing, blooming fool that I can forgive lack of scent.

harmonyp, I can't speak for Mme. Isaac Pereire, one of the large Bourbons, but SdlM should do well for you. It's not the least fazed by dry heat. I should mention though that I have two and the one that has mostly morning shade and then hot afternoon sun can't in any way be compared with the gorgeous one that has sun for most of the day but for a good part of the year has early evening shade. I did have Souv. de Dr. Reynaud, a large Bourbon with very fragrant flowers, but I didn't keep it very long because of its lanky growth habit and more sporadic bloom, and mostly because the blooms fried very quickly. If you can plant Mme. Isaac in a place with afternoon shade that would probably be optimal for you. The SdlM sport, Kronprinzessin Viktoria von Preussen, and another, Mme. Cornelissen, also do very well for me, but again they usually don't get the blazing early evening sun.

Ingrid

Fullerton Arboretum had a HUGE SdlM behind the Victorian house and it sat in midday baking heat but was loaded with flowers. Some fool pruned it way down. I think the color and perfume are better if you can find a morning sun spot.

I live in Joshua, North Texas and so far Ducher The Fairy and my Duchesse de Brabant have been stunning in my harsh Texas environment. I hand water perhaps once every 9 days in the summer and leave them to their own devices the rest of the year. Forgot to water the Duchesse for close to a month and she did well with whatever spray she got from the sprinklers. Said all of this to demonstrate how fab these roses are. Happy gardening and looking forward to planting more in Spring 2013!