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| I'm currently having a renewed love affair with Cecile Brunner and her color sport Rita Sammons. Cecile is THE ubiquitous antique rose in the San Francisco Bay Area. That's probably because she grows so well here even in a lot of shade, doesn't ball and is not plagued by disease and is a fragrant survivor found in many older gardens growing happily even when neglected.
I hadn't really planned on putting her in my garden until I realized that there were A LOT of old roses that just won't grow with my conditions so why not quit being miserable about the ones I can't have and grow what works instead. I've got one Cecile in the ground blooming now in complete shade (she'll start getting sun in the spring), another ready to be planted and a 5gal Rita Sammons also waiting for her new home. Also have a Cli Cecile already planted and an "everblooming" variety of Cecile from Heirloom waiting to be planted. I read on Carolyn Parker's rose blog that "Louis Philippe is a favorite OGR in the South." That led me to wonder what antique rose(s) is the foolproof one for your area and even though it may be everywhere it still commands your respect as a survivor. Diane |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Diane, you might also want to research While Cecile Brunner (the white sport) and Pink Gate, apparently a less double seedling or sport of Cecile, but otherwise thornless, identical color, and as healthy, ever flowering, fragrant and vigorous. Cecile and her permutations are very much the "Iceberg" of OGRs for California and many other places. I can't think of any other OGR as universally successful in our various climates without disease or performance issues. There are some which perform well, but not without other issues. Kim |
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| Thanks Kim! I knew about White CB (if truth be told, am not a huge fan of white roses although I do make exceptions) but I've never heard of Pink Gate and will now go and research her. Do you know any more about PG's history? Diane |
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| You'll find White Cecile to be blush pink much of the time, fading white when the sun and heat are sufficient. I purchased Pink Gate from the Hintons who owned The Rose Ranch when they were still in Gilroy. They had it growing over the gate to the nursery. I've had it for probably seventeen or more years. It's been stunted in a fifteen gallon can for many of those years. I only put it in the ground finally this week. It is definitely a survivor as it had endured every indignity I've shoveled its way and continued flowering perfectly. I have never seen any insect or disease problems with either it or White Cecile Brunner, not even here in Encino, where there are many more rose problems than there ever were in Newhall. I honestly can't recommend it too highly. It is a great rose, literally trouble free in my experience. Kim |
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| The only source I can find for Pink Gate is Roses Unlimited and they've got a 3 rose minimum order so have to wait for this. Too bad no one on the west coast seems to offer it. It sounds great. Any photos, Kim? Diane |
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| Diane, 'White Cecile Brunner' is a warm white. In cool weather, here, it can be tinged beige or even pale warm pink, tho it does finish white. But Kim's right -- it sure seems to be bulletproof. FWIW, tho I am saying this on very very short experience, I think Mrs. Keays "Faded Pink Monthly" is going to prove to be both disease-resistant and very vigorous here. The little plant I brought home from Sacramento in October has almost doubled in size. Call me startled. And I believe Rev. Seidel was likely right -- it's probably not a Noisette at all, and may be a Polyantha. And though this is useless to you, Diane, the single BEST Old Garden Rose here is "Grandmother's Hat," hands-down. We have other good roses, and I love my Teas and Chinas above all, but in THIS area, I don't think you can do better than "Grandmother's Hat." Jeri |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sat, Nov 10, 12 at 20:13
| I like Comte de Chambord, the repeat is excellent, the scent is great. It doesn't like hot weather, blooms better in cool weather. I wanted a second one, but Burlington Roses is sold out. |
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- Posted by floridarosez9 10 (My Page) on Sat, Nov 10, 12 at 20:23
| L. Phillipe, white Smith's Parrish, Spray Cecile Brunner, Bon Seline, Blush Noisette, Natchitoses Nosette, in that order of health and size. There are many others that do well, but those just burst into their huge selves immediately, bloom well, and are very healthy. Oh, I forgot Mrs. B.R. Cant. |
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| Jeri, I've got 2 Faded Pink Monthlies from the Sac Cemetery. Bought as 1gal in the Spring and the one that's not in the ground yet is already outgrowing the 5gal pot it's in. I just looked at the one in the ground today and it's covered in buds for what must be it's 4th flush and that's in a lot of winter shade (more sun spring and summer.)! It's a fantastic rose. I really wish GH did better for me, I really do. I may not give up and try another location. Strawberryhill and floridarosez9, do you find the ones you listed in a lot of other gardens in your areas? Diane |
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| Cecile Brunner is very popular here too and there's a long hedge of huge bushes nearby. I like it but don't love it and so it's not in my garden. Roses I would not be without because they do so well and are beautiful are Mutabilis, Le Vesuve, Mrs. B.R. Cant, and Souvenir de la Malmaison. All the Bourbons do well here although I prefer the short ones instead of the larger sprawlers. Burgundy Iceberg is great, also Belinda's Dream and Kronprinzessin Viktoria and Aunt Margy's Rose. |
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| Try GH in the warmest spot you have, Diane. You may be a bit too far north with a bit too much "cool" to get the best from her. All of my Pink Gate photos are on HMF. Those were from when the plant was struggling in the depleted soil in the nursery can where it had lingered for too many years. I went from not having anywhere to put it to not knowing where I wanted to put it, so this week, I dug a hole and stuck it in the ground. It never missed a beat. You might also enjoy Comtesse du Cayla, La Marne, Papa Hemeray, Marie Pavie, Purpurea and Bengal Fire. They all grew and flowered extremely well in the cooler, damper parts at the beach when I worked down there and had no issues with mildew. I have all of them but Papa, but jiminshermanoaks grows Papa Hemeray about eight miles from me where it's cooler, damper and more mildewy and his has always been spotless with no spray each time I've seen it. Kim |
Here is a link that might be useful: Pink Gate
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sat, Nov 10, 12 at 21:19
| Hi Diane: Other gardens in my area listed Louis Odier, he's more vigorous than Comte de Chambord. I have alkaline clay, Comte de Chambord doesn't like my soil, root is tiny. Paul Neyron likes my alkaline clay & partial shade, root is huge, no diseases, the scent is awesome here. Jacques Cartier doesn't like my heavy clay nor partial shade, the scent is light here. It might be good to check with folks what type of soil they have, and the sun requirement. |
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| Diane, you might email Burling at Burlington. She's had Pink Gate and may have one available. Worth a try. Kim |
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| Thanks for the link to photos Kim. If PG is a climber I have to think twice as I'm running out of room. : < Strawberryhill, Jacques Cartier is happy in part shade here and I love it. Paul Neyron sounds great. Ingrid, I also love the Bourbons but really can't grow them here. Diane |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sat, Nov 10, 12 at 22:25
| Thanks for the info. on Jacques Cartier likes partial shade. Then my soil is too alkaline pH of 7.7, and too heavy. Predfern in my Chicagoland informed me that his Jacques Cartier is the best performer, but he also grows Rugosa ... Rugosa hates my soil. I dug up Jacques Cartier, and its root shrank in my heavy clay. I ought to try stuff grafted on Dr. Huey. The last time I dug up Dr. Huey, his root went through my heavy clay far away to steal water from my veges. Firefighter as own-root loves my soil ... roots everywhere like a tree .. and tons of blooms. Nahema in the same bed, its root shrank to bite-site, it gave me a few lousy blooms. |
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| Diane, Grandmother's Hat is fine in the East Bay, and South Bay, but up toward Marin Co, I think it can have problems. Another example of the regionality we see in CA. Jeri |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 10:41
| Here is, in one picture, my three best roses. The left hand side of the mass is Le Vesuve (with perhaps a few blossoms of Duchesse de Brabant peeking out), and the right side is one giant Cecile Brunner. All three of these roses were over 90 years old when this picture was taken, and had gone decades with no care at all. The CB is so huge, I thought it might be Spray CB, but maybe is it just a really big example of the bush form, I don't know. I also have Cl Cecile Brunner on the house, and two way smaller bush CBs - I love them. No disease, no trouble, and one or the other is always in bloom (right now it is Cl Cecile Brunner). Jackie |
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| Jeri and Kim, I know GH would do fine in Pacifica, the problem for me is the number of hours of sun that my garden gets. I'm sure GH would be happy if it got 6-8 hours but I just don't have that luxury. I may try GH one more time in an area that gets sun from 10am-2pm spring and summer. Jackie, that photo takes my breath away. Really lovely. Diane |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 12:08
| Hi Diane: I move my roses around in my garden just to catch sunshine! I'm vitamin D deficient and have to take prescribed huge dose ... that's how little sun we get here in spring and fall constant rain. I bought Crown Princess Mag. since Austin catalog listed it in partial shade .... I was disappointed to find that it blooms better in sun, per my own experience and folks in the English Rose Forum. Paul Neyron does well in 4 hours of sun (100% clean in a soil mix of composted pine bark and lime), so does William Shakespeare 2000 (10+ blooms in little sun now). Niels in Denmark once mentioned that Comte de Chambord does better in more sun, with less disease. Floribundas do well in partial shade. Honey Bouquet (yellow) has 10+ buds in 4 hours of sun, so do Wise Portia (mauve). I find that white, yellow, mauve, and dark red roses can handle partial shade. |
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| Strawberryhill, I've tried a number of Austins that are listed as partial shade and they were miserable. I've sworn off Austins. Compte de Chambord was doing great in 4 hours sun until mr. gopher had it for lunch. I will look into Paul Neyron. Thanks for the tip. Diane |
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| Diane -- Paul Neyron is notorious for rust in CA. I remember a conversation long ago with Jolene Adams -- both of us recounting how many locations we'd tried Paul Neyron in, before finally counting it quits. You can grow it, if you're willing to strip the rusted leaves off the entire plant, periodically. That's too much work for me. I believe he even rusts in the Sacramento City Cemetery. I suggest you might look at something like 'Bishop Darlington,' a semi-double, wholly disease-free Thomas Hybrid Musk. He gets big, but does tolerate pruning. His color ranges from a strong apricot to an apricot-pink. We've also had 'Buff Beauty' do really well in 4-r hours of morning sun. Jeri |
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- Posted by lavender_lass WA zone 4 (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 12:45
| Celsiana- Great blooms, nice fragrance, very winter hardy and grows like a weed...which is unusual in our area :) Here's a beautiful picture (not mine) but very close to what mine looks like, in June.
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 12:49
| Hi Diane: Glad to know that Comte de Chambord does well in 4 hours sun, that's where I planted him. Forget about William Shakespeare 2000, his scent is lousy. But Wise Portia hates sun and smells wonderful in cool weather. Wise Portia has many buds, it's down to 1 hour of sun ... then none when December comes. Wise Portia is more like a floribunda than your typical Austin-climber-octopus-wanting-sun. How can I forget Felicite Parmentier? It's an alba, alba is known for partial shade. Check out this comment by Jeffcat, "This rose has one of the strongest fragrances of all roses. Blooms are small, but moderately abundant. The center tends to have a creamy pink color upon the creamy/white edges. Fragrance is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, amongst 400 or so other roses I have compared it against." Niels in Denmark, acidic clay & cool weather also loves this rose. Al in my Chicagoland with a partial shade garden, grows The Apothecary's Rose, known for its potent scent in potpourri. Another person reported The Apothecary's Rose blooms in 2 hours of sun. The less petals, the easier for blooming in partial shade. High Country Roses in Colorado sells both Felicite Parmentier, Wise Portia, and The Apothecary's Rose band-sizes. I ordered band-size from them before, 5 roses for $100 (includes shipping). They are honest folks & great customer service, and great web-site. |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 12:58
| I agree with Jeri that Paul Neyron is both a waterhog and a wimp ... he's OK in my wet clay, but I can see him rusting in a dry climate. I should order Felicite Parmentier, since compact & slender is my type of rose. Hardy made this comment about her in HMF: "Out of several hundred roses smelled, there are a few others I'd place first for strength of scent... maybe 3 or 4. Several more she would approximately tie with. For fragrance *quality* it would also make my top 10 list, it smells wonderful. While many of the other top roses boast rebloom, most of the other contenders are sprawling or climbing roses, often quite thorny, and a few of them get huge. Some are sickly, or require lots of full sun, or aren't very cold hardy. Felicite Parmentier has none of those vices, making it a pretty safe bet in even a tiny garden, or in a pot." |
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- Posted by floridarosez9 10 (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 13:46
| Diane, the only antiques found frequently growing in central Florida are L. Phillipe and Pink Pet because they're nematode resistant. Chinas do well, but you rarely see other varieties than these two. I keep giving away plants, hoping to get more out there. |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 15:21
| Hi Diane: I dug out the High Country's catalog and they listed the below as growing in 4 hours of sun: Madame Plantier (great scent, likes alkaline clay, thornless, but the size of a car). Madame Plantier is an alba, once-bloomer. Felicite Parmentier is an alba, it's a once-bloomer but blooms 1 month . Victorian Memory grows in partial shade, thornless, good repeat, but moderate scent. Buff Beauty is a hybrid musk, thorny climber, moderate scent. The only one with report of being drought tolerant and can handle 2 hours of sun is The Apothecary's Rose. It's nice to have once-bloomer so I can experience the fabulous scents once, but don't have to water them for the rest of the year.
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 15:21
| Hi Diane: I dug out the High Country's catalog and they listed the below as growing in 4 hours of sun: Madame Plantier (great scent, likes alkaline clay, thornless, but the size of a car). Madame Plantier is an alba, once-bloomer. Felicite Parmentier is an alba, it's a once-bloomer but blooms 1 month . Victorian Memory grows in partial shade, thornless, good repeat, but moderate scent. Buff Beauty is a hybrid musk, thorny climber, moderate scent. The only one with report of being drought tolerant and can handle 2 hours of sun is The Apothecary's Rose. It's nice to have once-bloomer so I can experience the fabulous scents once, but don't have to water them for the rest of the year.
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| 'Mme. Plantier' is considered to be a "Hybrid Noisette," being R. damascena Mill x R. moschata Herrm, or maybe an Alba x Noisette cross. It is one of the most-commonly-found roses in historic NoCal cemeteries, and in some climates, once-mature, it can repeat in the Fall. Just FYI, it didn't want to live, in my environment. Jeri |
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| Diane, the only two Paul Neyron I have ever encountered in California which weren't constantly rusty were the huge old plant at Sequoia which was positioned where it got all day sun and perfect air circulation. Most of the time it was clean exactly where it was, which is why Mr. Moore used it. It was definitely due to the precise conditions under which that particular plant grew, because I tried growing several plants propagated from it in several places here in the LA area and they rusted like old iron skillets. The other one was a client's plant in Pacific Palisades which refused to grow for them, but which they were determined to grow. I hit on a combination of Miracle Grow dissolved in Ultra Fine which was applied twice a month as a foliar feed and to suppress the saw fly and disease. One day at work, she brought me a bouquet of four perfect Paul Neyron blooms, with tears in her eyes. She had succeeded in getting the perfect, fragrant 'pink cabbages', then decided the effort just wasn't worth it. They dug out the plant, sending it to the dump along with the New Dawn they had nursed for years before deciding it just wasn't suited to their climate and not worth the work to try forcing it to work. Personally, for California gardens, I wouldn't suggest nor give a Paul Neyron to the person I was the angriest with. It is generally that bad in most places here. Kim |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 17:12
| Here Paul Neyron doesn't bloom unless it's several days of prolonged rain. Lots of Austins are like that ... so they become fall and spring bloomers, only with constant rain. It's hard to find OGR that bloom in the summer heat, without prolonged rain. |
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| Jeri, I grew Bishop Darlington at my previous house and wasn't that charmed with it. I've already got Madame Plantier and 3 Buff Beauties. Strawberryhill, the drought and shade tolerance is why I've gone bigtime for Gallicas. Officinalis did so well it encouraged me to try others even though I'm zone 10. We had a previous thread about being able to get away with Gallicas because I don't have prolonged heat here. I know about High Country roses and like them a lot although the Felicite Parmentier I purchased from them has not thrived. May try again from Pickering. Kim and Jeri, I surrender...no Paul Neyron for me. I'll be content with Old Town Novato for my dose of smelly red rose.
Jeri and Kim, what are the antique roses you find the most in your areas gardens? Diane |
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- Posted by cemeteryrose USDA 9/Sunset 14 (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 17:48
| The perfect old rose in Sacramento is Perle d'Or. It grows huge, repeats again and again whether or not it's deadheaded, and has a nice fragrance. One cut stem makes a bouquet. It's better than Mlle Cecile Brunner for us. The Paul Neyron clone that we have in the Sacramento cemetery has rusted badly. Mine at home, bought commercially 20 years ago and moved around the garden several times, had rust in its earlier years but has very little in its present location in front of an east-facing wall, planted in heavy clay soil that stays fairly moist. I don't think it is the clone so much as it is the maturity of the plant and its growing conditions, but if I didn't know better, I'd tout it highly for its performance at my house. I'll bet, however, that if we grew a cutting of my home PN and planted it in the cemetery's sandy soil, and watered it once a week as we do there, it would rust just like the others that are planted there. A better cabbage-type pink rose in my garden and in the cemetery is Barbara's Pasture Rose, probably a La Reine or closely related. More fragrance, more bloom, less rust than Paul Neyron. Occasionally it gets crud on its leaves, but overall, it's another foolproof rose. |
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| You don't "find" antique roses in gardens around me, Diane. This whole area has been developed for well over the past century and what you "find" are a few Cecile Brunners; a Glorie des Rosomanes (planted fairly recently by the curb down the hill); Fortuniana; Banksiaes; and HTs and floribundas of all types, with bazillians of Icebergs. The very few gardens I know have OGRs planted in them belong to members of local rose groups, and/or forum members. Jimofshermanoaks is only about eight miles east of me and his garden has over five-hundred polys and other roses. I know another Inter net rose group member less than a mile from me who has a garden full of white teas, Chinas, "in commerce as Sombreuil", the 'real' Sombreuil and a number of other Noisettes and types, but that doesn't really count as they haven't been there that long so aren't really "survivors". The area is, and has been mobile enough, with properties changing hands frequently enough that most of the "old" gets and has gotten ripped out to be replaced with what the new owners want for themselves. This is "El Lay", quintessential SoCal, where little of "antiquity" is valued and 'what's new' is always chased after. A friend from Northern California used to love rubbing in the walking tour of downtown she took nearly forty years ago. The twenty-something tour guide kept showing more modern buildings and Mary asked if there weren't any "older, historic" buildings around. The twenty-something exclaimed, "We have PLENTY of older buildings. Some in this area are well over twenty years old!". Yup, stereotypical SoCal. Kim |
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| Barbara's Pasture Rose -- If it is La Reine, it is the most beautiful and vigorous clone of that I've ever seen. It's one of those roses that just brings you to a complete stop. Jeri |
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| Bring a Barbara's Pasture Rose over here, Jeri. If it's a La Reine variant, it WILL rust and black spot. La Reine is a gorgeous rose, but it is addicted to disease in my climate. I battled it at Limberlost, in Granada Hills, in Newhall and at the beach. Glendora was perfection in Newhall. Totally healthy and flowered all the time. I'd grow it here, now, if I had the room. Kim |
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| No. I have one here, and it is pretty clean, even tho it isn't in a great location. So I really DO think it is superior. (And I have grown both, in pretty close proximity.) Glendora, by contrast, really isn't all that happy here. Jeri |
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| I really love Archduke Charles and Mrs Dudley Cross. Don't have a single problem with them, and they're huge. Maman Cochet and Niles Cochet have done really well. I also adore Leveson Gower, but it mildews. |
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| In my part of the world, Mrs. Dudley Cross mildews. Marie van Houtte, similar in color, but a bigger plant, has no disease problems here. Jeri |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 22:21
| I love all those great pics., Celsiana by Lavender_lass grows like a weed? That's my type of rose. Looking at Diane's Old Town Novato, I realize that she has chlorosis and alkalinity like mine ... Thanks, Diane, for the info. of Felicite Pamentier being wimpy. It does well for Niels' acidic clay, but I'm not sure about my alkaline clay. I love Jeri's Barbara's Pasture Rose. I'll look into Gallicas like Diane suggested ... I believe Melissa in Italy like Gallicas too in her alkaline clay. Question for Diane: is your soil alkaline sandy,or alkaline clay? Jeri once reported Crimson-glory own-root as wimpy in her soil, I was afraid to try ... but it does really well in my wet alkaline clay. Crimson-Glory is the healthiest HT in my garden, blooms well. |
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- Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Mon, Nov 12, 12 at 1:31
| People don't grow roses much around here, and what I do usually see are large-flowered Hybrid Teas and such bought at the local garden center. That said, nobody plants 'Centifolia' (or any other once-blooming rose) but it's the commonest old rose in the area, surviving near-universal neglect. I've run across a few plants of 'Alba Maxima' and of 'Old Blush'. Not antiques, but passalong roses and great survivors are the old HT 'Mme. Jules Bouche', and, what is still going to be growing in this area a century from now, 'Queen Elizabeth'. |
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- Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on Mon, Nov 12, 12 at 10:36
| Thanks, Melissa, for info. on neglected-but-thrive roses,that's my type .... I have my kid to baby, so I don't have time to baby roses. High Country Roses have a sale now, $12 to $13 on Austins and ALL THEIR ROSES (lots of Old Garden, hardy species). Felicite Parmentier on sale for $13 ... I can't resist. Hopefully Diane will inform me if her soil is alkaline clay or alkaline sand. I'm a bit hesistant with Felicite Parmenter being wimpy for Diane. Eglantyne as a band from High Country Roses was wimpy and died last winter, so I bought a HUGE-GALLON size, almost 2 feet tall Eglantyne and its root shrinks on me the second-time in my alkaline clay.
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| I'd have to agree with Brittie in Houston on Archduke Charles and Mrs Dudley Cross. I'd add SDLM, and I have no complaints about Mrs B R Cant. I'll let you know in a couple of years how Grandmother's Hat likes my area. Jackie, beautiful roses! 90 years old!!! WOW! |
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| Kim, Here we have outrageous black spot, rare mildew and no rust. My personal experience on clay subsoil: The best roses have been Mme. Plantier, White Rose of York and Stanwell Perpetual with no black spot and good bloom. Souvenir de la Malmaison, Zephrine Drouhin and Gruss an Aachen have minimal black spot and not much bloom. In their defense, they are in shady locations. Cecile Brunner and Blush Noisette have bloomed well in full sun. It has been a long time since I have seen them but I do not remember them having black spot so if they did, it wasn't much. If I were you and wanted a more complete survey of roses that grow well in this area, I would contact: Garden of Roses of Legend and Romance in Wooster, Ohio, Telephone Kelly King @330-263=3612 or email her @ king.1364@osu.edu Cath |
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| Thanks, Cath. Kim |
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| Strawberryhill, sorry for the delay. Haven't had time to post. My soil is clay in one area and sandy in another but Felicite Parmentier has been in a pot for several years with good potting soil and a mulch of compost/manure. By the way, High Country is sold out of FP. The plant I got from them never had much vigor and when it bloomed this year all the buds opened deformed. Am thinking of trying FP from Pickering in the future. Kim, thanks for the run down of roses in your area. Melissa, I'm surprised to hear that antique roses aren't more widely grown in your area. Anita, Perle d'Or is a treasure. Thanks everyone for your interesting responses. Diane |
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| Oh my goodness Jackie, those roses are amazing! 90 years old and is there any reason why folks don't grow more of the old roses. You get your money's worth and then some. Not to mention preserving a bit of history for future generations. Keep up the good work, |
Here is a link that might be useful: The Old Garden Rose Blog
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| Hi, I'm at the other end of s.f bay, in Richmond. These are the most disese resistant roses in 3 local no-spray gardens, among a total of c. 400 different rose cultivars and species: China Tea mild to moderate p.m. when it rains: Tea-Noisette followed by Perle d'Or nearly as disease resistant Hybrid Perpetual Damask and D.P.s Bourbon Hybrid Tea Hybrid Musk Gallica: Alba borderline for p.m., usually covered lightly with it, but bloom normally I grow mostly evergreen roses because they bloom so often and are so exquisite, the classes of Bourbon and H.P. have been more problemental, the pink and white roses of both those classes are more disease resistant on average than the red, locally. Best wishes, |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Sun, Nov 18, 12 at 11:31
| Love the list Lux!! |
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| Wow Lux, that's quite a list. Thanks very much for posting. Diane |
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- Posted by poorbutroserich Nashville (My Page) on Sun, Nov 18, 12 at 19:18
| Lux, we have quite the same tastes. How about sharing photos? Thanks! Susan |
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| With only a few exceptions -- we have less winter chill -- Lux's choices would work here. And they're roses I love, too. :-) Jeri |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Sun, Nov 18, 12 at 21:17
| Jeri, which would you remove from Lux's list for this area? |
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- Posted by gothiclibrarian 5b (My Page) on Mon, Nov 19, 12 at 7:46
| Diane, Do try FP from Pickering! I have her at my old house, planted I think 2004, and she's wondrous. So wondrous that she's my very favorite rose...and when we moved in 2010 I got 2 more FP, but I got them as own-root bands (no WAY was I going to move the grafted plant...FPs thorns are monstrous). Own-root (I have alkaline clay soil amended well) she has sulked for 2 years. So much so that I'm going to pot her up next year and hope I can somehow force more above-ground growth before finding her a better spot. ~Anika |
Here is a link that might be useful: GothicLibrarian.net
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| What would I remove? Not much. Let's see . . . COMMENTS IN CAPS. And I added a couple of things. China Tea Monsieur Tillier mild to moderate p.m. when it rains: Tea-Noisette Reve d'Or' (COMPLETELY DISEASE FREE HERE, ALWAYS. BLOOMS ALL YEAR ROUND). Cemetary Musk' from sacramento cemetary. simple five petaled blooms of a blush pink. long bloom season, still blooming in November. Polyantha Perle d'Or nearly as disease resistant Hybrid Perpetual Damask and D.P.s (I ONLY GROW AUTUMN DAMASK. I THINK SHE'D LIKE A LITTLE MORE WINTER, BUT SHE'S COMING ALONG) Bourbon MOST BOURBONS ARE HOPELESS HERE. RAGGED ROBIN (GLOIRE DES ROSOMANES) A 12-MO. BLOOM FACTORY WITH NO DISEASE. CALLED A BOURBON. ACTS MORE LIKE A CHINA) Hybrid Musk Gallica: duchess de brabant (FINALLY GOT ONE THAT DON'T MILDEW!) Jeri |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Mon, Nov 19, 12 at 15:12
| Thanks Jeri! Questions: s.d.l.m. I thought I remember you saying it does not do well? Am I confused? (it happens easily!) Mrs B R Cant, another I thought you said is not wonderful in our foggy weather and Crepescule, do you mean she stays small or is not happy? <~~I am taking notes but I have so many I am confusing myself |
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| You're right. I missed SdlM. It is gar-BAGE here. MOST Bourbons are poor prospects here, but that is one of the worst. Yes, yes. I KNOW it is great elsewhere. It's bad HERE. Mrs. B.R. Cant has been in the ground here for maybe 18 years. It is perhaps 5 ft. tall, not very broad. Nowhere near the vigorous plant it is said to be, in most places. Crepuscule. We tried at least 3 own-root plants. It did NOT wish to grow, here. So, it is slowly growing, and it blooms, and it has no disease. But would I recommend it to my neighbor? No. The only yellow Tea-Noisette that does well here is Reve d'Or, and it does spectacularly well -- so guess which one I would recommend. :-) Jeri |
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| Diane, Celine Forestier very disease resistant now, in its second year. Lux. P.S. to Susan, I haven't figured out how to post with my camera yet. |
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| Lux, I can vouch for Lamarque. Not a trace of disease in part shade. Waiting to see how well it will bloom. Jaune Desprez is also disease free. Diane |
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| More additions from 3 local no-spray gardens including my own, in the east San Francisco Bay area: I second Jeri's mentioning of Gloire des Rosomanes, it is a very fine rose . Certainly foolproof: Also foolprrof 'La France' elegant long pink buds, va-va-va voom fragrance. slender wood. I really love this rose. Soliel d'or' its nearly four am. I must stop thinking about roses, |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam Sunset 23 So CA (My Page) on Thu, Dec 6, 12 at 15:32
| I agree that Perle D' Or is fantastic. I can't honestly remember any issues with this plant except it being mad at being dug up and moved. Once it got over that, no disease -none- no bugs no blooming issues. Heat doesn't ruin the flowers neither does rain. The same is true for Rita S. which is in the same bed. I have not tried either in partial shade. They sit right by the front path like monarchs. The other rose I had such perfection from was mutabilis but I lost it when I tried to move it when we had to have plumbers out to work on the main drain line one summer. Close runner up is Gruss An Aachen in late day sun in a difficult spot and still looking like a champion. My old Perle is from Roses of Yesterday & Today from the 80's and still going strong. Incredible plant. |
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- Posted by ken-n.ga.mts 7a/7b (My Page) on Thu, Dec 6, 12 at 21:11
| Both in Fl. and up here in the N.GA. mountains, it has always been Pink Pet. Stick a twig of it in the ground and get out of the way. |
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| Jeri, I'm relieved to read that your Mrs. B.R. Cant is a laggard in your garden as well. I had read it was the vigorous monster and for us it's staying quite small - around 4' so far and suffering a certain amount of cane blackening and die-back each season. But it seems overall healthy and has lovely blooms, so it stays here as well. Crepuscule has also performed weakly here, staying small, but is healthy and produces a few lovely blooms a year so we haven't given up yet. Clementina Carbonieri is growing very slowly for us and even Reve d'Or (we have 3)is performing barely adequately in only one instance. We keep thinking that it's our heavy clay soil and alkaline water, so will try more things this year: soil sulphur, water with lemon juice, azomite, more mycorrhyzae, coffee grounds etc. Any other suggestions? |
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| Linda -- Funny thing about some roses performance. The Safrano we planted long long ago was such a weakling it never grew, and is long gone. The "John Pearce" Safrano we collected a few years ago in NoCal is quite vigorous, and growing well. (It was also gorgeous where we collected it.) Our several tries at purchased plants of Duchesse de Brabant all resulted in mildewy messes. The Duchesse de Brabant from an old NoCal cemetery is a wonderful thing (as it was in the cemetery). Lux -- Alice Flores collected a plant sn'd "Hannalie's Honey," which is thought to be Mari Dot, and which grows well, I'm told, in Mendocino and also up near Visalia. I know what you mean about De la Grifferaie. It didn't like to grow here -- we're far too alkaline -- but it's a beauty. Kernel Mel Hulse often said that, if De la Grifferaie were remontant, it would be among the world's most popular roses. I agree! There was an old and lovely Soleil d'Or at a historic home here. Over my protests, they attempted to move it. Good-bye Soleil d'Or. :-( Jeri |
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| I have lots of foolproof roses. Now to try to limit to antiques (I have many species roses that are no trouble at all, but maybe include these in another thread?). In my garden I use many native California plants as companions to my roses, and those natives really do not like much/any fertilizer and prefer low water, so my rose choices need to be compatible with this kind of care. Also, my gardening style is benign neglect, so you can see where this is going, plants that require constant tending with lots of food and water just aren't gonna get it! Pruning is out as well.;) And the results are prima donnas don't survive under these conditions. Here are some of my best and favorite antique roses, not in any particular order, excpet that I mentally walked through my garden, and selected some of the best ones in the areas they are planted : Felicite Parmentier, alba, she has been a wonderful and reliable rose for me for close to 20 years. Blooms profusely every year in partial shade for about 2 months in spring. Intensely fragrant blooms with a button eye. Ultra pale pink. Foliage is the typical bluish tone of albas and clean as a whistle. Has been abused over the years (including hacked to the ground at least once by the gardener), and goes some years with no feeding whatsoever to no apparent ill effect. Love, love, love this rose! Own root from Heirloom. York and Lancaster, damask, is now a giant after growing for a couple decades never being pruned. A thorny beast though.... Grows through and supported by several large neighbor bushes and when in bloom, the perfume wafts EVERYWHERE. Trouble free, healthy foliage. Rarely fed. Own root from Heirloom or Antique Rose Emporium (I forget which!--would have to reach my hand into a minefield of thorns to see if the tag is still attached) Jenny Duval, gallica, she likes it here. Gobbles up territory whenever she has the chance, but I don't mind since she is so pretty. Is a blooming fool every spring, a spectacular sight. Very fragrant. Covers herself in mauvey/pinky flowers that line my garden walk with color. Very healthy and dependable. Own root from Heirloom. Madame William Paul, moss, another garden path decorator. Absolutely gorgeous. She lives in partial shade. A favorite of my neighbors for her profuse and colorful blooms. Intense fragrance. Beautiful moss. Decided to harvest a hip this year, and now have a seedling or two. Own root from Heirloom. Baronne Prevost, hybrid perpetual, grows by a seasonal stream in a foothill garden where I've kept my horses. Planted in 2003 or 2004, has never been pruned, and now climbs into the adjacent eucalyptus trees. Flowers almost year round, very fragrant, sets hips too. No disease. Never fed. Gets plenty of fertilizer though, probably from plentiful supply of local rabbits, squirrels, birds, etc. Own root from Vintage. Portland from Glendora, a found rose from the almost-next-door city of Glendora. Some rosarians believe this is the damask perpetual Joasine Hanet. Lives in partial shade here. Very vigorous. Profuse bloomer, fragrant. Like the others, receives low water and food. Own root from Eurodesert. Rene d'Anjou, moss, have had about a year. Pink. What a lovely surprise he has been. Now over 5 feet tall, from a bareroot in December 2011. Lightly fed while getting established with fairly diluted fish fertilizer only. Lush foliage. An elegant plant. Gave me 4 large flushes that went on for weeks at a time. Not only are the flowers fragrant, but so is the moss AND the leaves. From Pickering, grafted on multiflora. Comtesse O'Gorman, hybrid perpetual, this has to be one of the most beautiful of all red roses, a cool blue-red. Flowers look like peonies. A lower, mounding/spreading grower, as compared to some of my other jolly green giants! Will tip root. Flowers are packed with petals and very, very fragrant. Plentiful dark green leaves. From Eurodesert, likely grafted (don't remember noticing one way or another when planting) but I don't know on what. Abbe Bramerel, hybrid perpetual, is a very unusual hp. Likes a little shade, that's nothing all that different, but the flowers, well they are something really special. A unique color that I find nearly impossible to get with a digital camera. Purplish-reddish-brownish-lavenderish???? Whatever, the camera can't get it even close. Except for one photo (that I can't seem to locate on the web anymore) by Cliff Orent. Moderately fragrant. Starts blooming in January, yes JANUARY!! Flowers also last a very long time on the plant without appearing to look aged (they look pristine). Appears to like the dry heat of my area too. A fascinating plant. From Eurodesert, may be grafted (don't remember) but I don't know on what. Francois Premier, hybrid perpetual, a classical red rose with all the fragrance one often hopes to get on a red rose, but is often disappointed. Not so here! Flowers in the old-fashioned many-petalled style. Grows in a neat, vase shape appropriate for smaller spaces. Medium green leaves remain clean year round. A very fine rose. From Eurodesert, and like the preceding 2, may be grafted. Marchesa Boccella/Jacques Cartier, hybrid perpetual. A delightful pink rose and very reliable. Blooms repeatedly throughout the year. Of demure size so far, a round mound of leaves. No disease. Produces lots of cheerful pink, fragrant pompom flowers. From Antique Rose Emporium last year, own root. Melissa |
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- Posted by sherryocala 9A Florida (My Page) on Sat, Dec 8, 12 at 13:03
| Most foolproof? I had to think about that and figured out you don't mean perfect. There's no perfect rose in my garden. After this summer I'm not sure I could even give you a short list of roses I'm fairly happy with. They all have had issues and looked ugly for extended periods this year. They are finally improving now, but I don't think I'll give you a list of the standard tried-and-true roses for Florida. We know which ones they are, and I'm a little past the point of raving about any of them as maintenance-free and beautiful all the time. They're not. Well, I will say that Reve d'Or is the closest to perfect and zero-maintenance (I don't do anything to her), and I'll add that Clotilde Soupert is superb now with big, fat, gorgeous, fragrant flowers and lush foliage. We'll see what next year brings. I think the ones I have might ALL make the list. Hmmm, or am I just hopelessly optimistic - again. Sherry |
Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...
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- Posted by sc_gardener zone 5 (My Page) on Tue, Dec 11, 12 at 13:22
| Zone 5 - Chicago area: Madame Hardy Belle De Crecy Rose de Rescht I have Felicite Parmentier and that is my favorite although last year I had some issues with her and Tuscany superb they kind some kind of crud and did not do well here. First year they ever did that. |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Tue, Dec 11, 12 at 14:10
| Is there one of the list below that you would plant on the north side of a fence? Might get some morning sun and some afternoon. Right now there is a tree that shades the area all the time but is going to be removed. Not sure how much sun will be there once it is gone. (might end up planting something different so if none of these would be happy that is okay too) Thanks for the help! Arch Duke Charles |
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| I would go for Secret Garden Musk. But of course that kind of primitive plant in general appeals to me--also is likely good around here as well as on the coast. Marie Pavie sounds like a good choice too. I've seen polyanthas all over southern Cal doing well, often in shady spots. Teas and chinas on the other hand are the worst possible roses here, so I have a hard time recommending them for anyone near me, but you are on the coast where they do very well with the extra humidity in the air. I have Archduke Charles, and like others of his class, are prone to diseases. His worst proclivity is rust, for which I shovel-pruned him. Back into a pot though, because no matter how terrible a rose is, I just don't have the heart to actually kill one. Lady Ann Kidwell I saw at Eurodesert in the polyantha area. She was HUGE and looked very healthy. Flowers of a color and shape not to my taste, but I still had to admire the sheer robustness of the plant (in full sun fyi). Melissa |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 15, 12 at 0:03
| Barbara's Pasture Rose How big does it get? And does anyone sell it? |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 15, 12 at 11:38
| Ha Ha I have a short Crepuscule as well. Thought it was just me. I'm just letting it be. Who knows. It's not diseased and it blooms off and on. Kim my La Reines are doing ok no rust or bs in central OC. What about Henry Nevard? is this worthwhile for the LA area? I tried a Paul Neyron from Wayside way back when. Same as everyone here said. Felecia has been great and Blush Boursault gets better every year. That rose along with Albertine are my once blooming champions. No bugs,diseases or anything. Albertine's very thorny though but BB's a JOY! No thorns and very pretty smooth red canes. I would have a tall wall of BB if it bloomed more. It's gets fall foliage where the weather is cooler but I'm happy with mine just the same. BB hates hard pruning. One of the first roses to bloom and I look forward to it every year. |
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| Kippy -- "Barbara's Pasture Rose" might be described as being "La Reine-on-Steroids." The blooms from a mature plant are enormous, and very fragrant. I have it, here, and it is reasonably disease-free, despite not being planted in a great location. Truth-to-tell, I should probably give it to someone who can give it better conditions. It deserves that. The mature plant in the Sacramento City Cemetery is easily 5 ft. tall and around. A big ball of a bush. Here's a pix that gives you a good idea of the bloom, and a sorta idea of the plant. Jeri |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Sat, Dec 15, 12 at 12:43
| Jeri, I remembered your "on steroids" comment....but how big is that? I take it bigger than the 5x5. It is such a pretty rose in your photos. |
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| Kitty, I grew Henry Nevard as a budded, badly virused, ROYAT plant in my original Granada Hills garden between 1985 and 1989. He flowered fairly regularly but I seldom got to see and enjoy a nice one as even with shade from other plants, they fried terribly, even without reflected/radiated heat from the house wall. Rust was a severe issue with him. I'd hoped he would have improved when moved to Newhall, but after two years in that canyon, he wasn't any better, so I dumped him. I can believe the rambler is healthy for you. One of the most consistently healthy roses I've ever grown is Silver Moon. Nothing slows that freight train down! It just barrels its way through bad soil, inhospitable conditions, vermin, heat, cold, nothing stops it! I had to obtain it and Marissa Fishman at Greenmantle was my original source. I had to allow the huge plant in the old garden to be bull dozed, but I'd rooted plants of it for the HOA to use on fences as security plants and I snitched cuttings from one of them just a few years ago to bring home. It's clean here in this semi coastal climate. I've known people who have successfully used Silver Moon as a decent root stock, if that suggests how successful a rose it is! Kim |
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| I've never been able to get 'La Reine' herself to grow above 3 ft., or perhaps slightly less. AND it inevitably rusts. When I have seen it in spring, BPR has been close to 5 ft. But I also wanted to say that in my conditions, one of the most foolproof Old Roses I know -- and the most disease-resistant and generous of bloom -- is 'Gloire des Rosomanes.' In my conditions, it grows as well as an weed, and is rarely without color, through the year. All hail "Ragged Robin." Jeri |
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| OH NO. I see Ingrid grows Bourbons ok, Jerijen and Fogrose say no way, all in zones 9/10. I know these zones vary tremendously. I just ordered SDLM and Mme. Isaac Pereire for my dry, hot, sand. Will they survive here? |
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| Harmony, I don't know about SDLM. She's a mess here, but pretty good as a mature plant in the Sacramento City Cemetery. Mme. Isaac Pereire -- ACH! She is much-addicted to rust in most places I've seen her in CA -- Maybe good elsewhere? I've been down that road, and she'll never darken my garden door again. Beautiful bloom! But I think, one of those roses meant to be shown in an English Box. (She excels at that, btw.) Her sport, Mme. Ernst Calvat, is a better rose here -- marginally. But she, too, finally tried our patience too far. Jeri |
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- Posted by patricia43 z8 AL (My Page) on Thu, Dec 20, 12 at 13:54
| Oh, I must be in love with Crepuscule. I lost it to the ground 6 years ago due to some yet identified problem, and it has rebounded in all its glory. A beautiful scurrbling bubbling bath of apricot golden posies in spring and many flushes through fall. Try it. You will love it. Now the bouquet may not compare to Jaune Desprez, but neither does Chanel or Estee Lauder. |
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| I enjoyed re-reading this informative thread. Lots of good info. The best oldies in our coastal garden are Gilbert Nabonnand (grew fast, but has naked legs so we plant in front of them), Mme. Lambard, Monsieur Tillier, Angel's Camp Tea (Octavius Weld in Australia I think)that has astonised us with rapid growth and beautiful blooms, Lady Anne Kidwell, bush Cecile Brunner of course, Perle d'Or, Alister Stella Gray, Cl. Lady Hillingdon, Mme Berard,Daybreak (HM), Gruss an Aachen (although slow to build), Gloire des Rosomanes (tho virused). Laggards include Clementina Carbonieri, General Gallieni, Reve d'Or (yes, go figure), Niles Cochet, Rozette Delizy and others. None of these are hopeless, though, so we let them grow slowly - all are healthy. We've had few real duds, thanks to good recommendations from Jeri and others. |
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- Posted by patricia43 z8 AL (My Page) on Thu, Dec 20, 12 at 16:45
| LBuzzell, I have grown everyone that you mentioned and agree they are all healthy but they are no match for Roundup. (Please do not watch me. I am crying). |
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| So sorry to hear about that, patricia. I HATE Roundup and wish people realized how toxic it is and not just for plants but people, other animals and waterways too. So many gardeners have been fooled into thinking it does no damage. |
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| Linda -- We finally have a very vigorous 'Gen. Gallieni' -- a cutting from the one Gean grew in AL. It's everything a Nabonnand Tea should be. :-) Kim -- 'Silver Moon' is -- finally -- growing well here, but it hasn't the loveliest foliage, and it doesn't bloom much. Jeri |
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| Most Chinas, Teas & Polyanthas just do great, but the absolute most idiot-proof of all is: "Caldwell Pink". Asks for nothing except good light. I had its clippings routinely root on the compost pile before I turned it. Such an easy, willing, blooming fool that I can forgive lack of scent. |
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| harmonyp, I can't speak for Mme. Isaac Pereire, one of the large Bourbons, but SdlM should do well for you. It's not the least fazed by dry heat. I should mention though that I have two and the one that has mostly morning shade and then hot afternoon sun can't in any way be compared with the gorgeous one that has sun for most of the day but for a good part of the year has early evening shade. I did have Souv. de Dr. Reynaud, a large Bourbon with very fragrant flowers, but I didn't keep it very long because of its lanky growth habit and more sporadic bloom, and mostly because the blooms fried very quickly. If you can plant Mme. Isaac in a place with afternoon shade that would probably be optimal for you. The SdlM sport, Kronprinzessin Viktoria von Preussen, and another, Mme. Cornelissen, also do very well for me, but again they usually don't get the blazing early evening sun. Ingrid |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 0:38
| Fullerton Arboretum had a HUGE SdlM behind the Victorian house and it sat in midday baking heat but was loaded with flowers. Some fool pruned it way down. I think the color and perfume are better if you can find a morning sun spot. |
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| I live in Joshua, North Texas and so far Ducher The Fairy and my Duchesse de Brabant have been stunning in my harsh Texas environment. I hand water perhaps once every 9 days in the summer and leave them to their own devices the rest of the year. Forgot to water the Duchesse for close to a month and she did well with whatever spray she got from the sprinklers. Said all of this to demonstrate how fab these roses are. Happy gardening and looking forward to planting more in Spring 2013! |
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