Ruthlessly eliminating all the roses which have struggled, frustrating me this past year so I could make room to actually plant those which appear to WANT to be here. I've already found homes for, or shredded, nearly twenty-five percent of what was here six months ago and it makes me want to do MORE! Kim

Hi Kim: I love your famous line, "why raise penguins in the desert?" My re-phrase of that is, "do what's appropriate, rather than what's fancy."

Yes, I fancied Eglantyne rose when I fell in love with its scent at the rose park. I fancied that it's going to be great in my garden ... but it's Rugosa heritage is never appropriate for my alkaline clay. What's appropriate for my garden? Low-thorn so my kid won't be afraid to enjoy the garden. Small drought-tolerant roses so I won't have to water so much.

My Mom used to say, "don't let your possessions own your time or money ... You OWN your stuff, and don't let stuff rule you." It's liberating to take control, and get rid of roses that consume too much energy and water trying to make them work. I'm the boss here, and if the roses want to stay, they have to please me.

I have a couple of her books-SoCal related, but this is her thought on amending soils.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pat Welsh

New learning: Seeing with fresh eyes.

A few weeks ago as I was unloading the trunk from grocery shopping two young children (the girl a little older than the boy) appeared and asked if I had seen their cat. Explaining that I had just arrived and so hadn't, I told them that they could look through the yard as they wished to find their cat and then asked them to describe it in case I saw it later. They walked on the grass to the back yard hill where they could overlook the retaining wall and see the back patio which is an elongated half circle of gravel. The gravel is surrounded by a border of ground cover with a few shrubs and roses. On the gravel sits a bench and along the curve of the patio sit 4 large pots filled with variegated ivy. The border is backed on the far side by a curved yew hedge, and to the right of the hedge and beyond, the hill falls away and the woods behind it had turned color and were becoming open with the serious onset of Fall. Simple. Well, the children said, "BeautifuL, it's beautiful." This surprised me a little. When I see the garden, I see what needs to be done, what is not "right", its flaws and failures and also what it could be, what I am trying to achieve. Then I saw the beauty that the children had seen, of what was there. And so I am learning to look at my garden with fresh eyes, the eyes of children.

Cath

I've had good luck using gypsum in the treatment of heavy clay soils.

Cath, that is so true. I tend to look at the things which annoy me in my garden rather than what's right. I noticed this when people would visit and rhapsodise over the things in bloom, not the weeds or the rose that wasn't doing well.

That adding a good fertilizer and not just horse manure really makes a huge difference in my sandy soil.

And to not give up on roses whose roots have been decimated by gophers. If there's even one strand of a feeder root left, the rose can survive with a little TLC.

And of the about 15 roses who hadn't done as well as I wished, only 3 needed to be SP'd after giving them another shot at an alternate location.

And finally, I will never plant another plant again in my soil (that I wish to surviv) without 20 gauge mesh lining the planting hole.

Thank you, Kippy, for the link to Pat Welsh ... the guy Brian made a good point, "for sand to work, it must be 80 to 90% sand, which is an impossible HUGE AMOUNT". In my 12 years of fixing clay, organics such as grass clippings get glued up within a year, but coarser organics such as acidic leaves don't get glued up.

Kim Rupert scanned the article on the properties of pine bark from the ARS book and sent to me. Acidic pine mulch aerates and conditions clay soil. It's very dry at first, but once decomposted, it retains moisture. It works like sphagum moss in aeration, or makes soil fluffy so roots can expand. Gypsum works, but expensive. A huge bag of pine mulch costs $2.59 at Walmart, versus a 8 ounces bag of gypsum at $5 each at Menards. Once decomposed, pine releases acid which conditions alkaline clay.

I like seeing my garden from others' eyes. They noticed my bright orange Calendula clumps first before my roses. These plants give abundantly although I never water them. That's the type of roses I shop for.

Thanks, Harmonyp, very good tip on chem. fertilizer for well-drainage. I don't use chemical fertilizer for my heavy clay, fertile, high in salts with poor drainage ... but I witnessed good result with chemical fertilizer in pots, with good drainage. Annie Laurie McDowell was blooming like mad with alfalfa meal, but she wasn't growing much even with de-budding. So I gave it chem./organic fertilizer 10-5-4, put her in partial shade, and she tripled the size within a month in a well-drained pot. I made a mistake using the same stuff on my tomato plants in the ground, they became huge at 4' x 6'.

For well-drained pots or sandy soil, chemical fertilizer make plants grow fast. It's the high-nitrogen in chemical fertilizer, compare to low NPK of horse manure at 0.7 0.3 0.6, and NPK of alfalfa meal at 2-1-2. Blood meal at NPK of 12-0-0, high in nitrogen works fast like chemical fertilizer. One time I sprinkled blood meal around my marigolds to deter rabbits. They shot up to be 3' tall, all green and no blooms. Normally marigolds are 6 inches tall and loaded with blooms

Oh, good idea for a thread!

What I've learned is that my arbor is out in an area that is too cold/snowy, in the winter. No break from winter winds, so it's time to move it to a more protected area. The good news is...more protected from winds and deer, so maybe I can try a few climbing roses with the clematis :)

That's my garden project for next year! Here's the arbor, when I first put it out, in the 'kitchen garden'. Great views, but too cold, so I plan to replace it with a patio table and chairs. We'll still enjoy the view, but maybe just a few potted annuals, instead of the perennials. {{gwi:325129}}From Lavender's Garden

Hi Lavender_lass: Thank you for a great pic. I love your arbor. Since you are in zone 4, would that be too cold for climbing roses? Folks in cold zone reported non-blooming climbing roses. I was about to ask Kim Rupert why that Dr. Huey in my street's corner NEVER BLOOM, although it's in full sun, and we have tons of rain.

The rose park has an arbor, not as nice as yours, they let honeysuckle climb up . I have seen some gorgeous climbing clemantis in my zone 5a, but they never get more than 6 feet all (bloom early spring). My Mom in zone 5b let morning glory climb up on her arbor (bloom August to Nov.) The last time you recommended purple Intrigue floribunda for scent, I saw that at my zone 5a rose park, very impressive & loaded with blooms ... it smelled great as you said.

The greatest improvement this year is that I got rid of several poorly performing roses and two days ago received Marjory Palmer, Devoniensis, Lady Alice Stanley, Pink Lafayette and La France to fill up the empty spaces.

I also learned to rejuvenate summer-stressed and/or poorly growing roses which I was considering getting rid of, and they're now doing beautifully. Extra mulching, fertilizer, water and disbudding have done great things for Cl. Lady Hillingdon, La France, Spice, Souvenir de Germain de St. Pierre, Souvenir de President Carnot and Mrs. B.R. Cant.

Ingrid

After talking to my sister from Bay area, CA, I'm convinced that gypsum is a conspiracy to steal money from folks (just kidding!). Last year I followed Roses Unlimited instruction to put gypsum in the planting hole, and asked hubby to get 2 bags for me. I was expecting 2 bags the size of 40 lbs. top soil, but he gave me 2 tiny bags the size of one-serving potato chips ...He paid $10 at Menards, after hunting for them all over town ...it's like using gold dust.

I googled "the myth of gypsum for clay soil" and found several University Extension sites stating that it's a waste of money. Gypsum, or calcium sulfate, is useful if one has really salty soil that needs de-salting ... but improving the drainage is still cheaper than using gypsum. Gypsum is worthless in soil already high in calcium, such as my limestone soil and limy well water.

Back to my sister, who is a chemical engineer with Ph.D. .. she said she tried gypsum, and it didn't do any good to her soil.

Strawberryhill- Never too cold for roses, you just have to find the right ones :)

John Davis is really pretty and when we move the arbor, it will have the lilac hedge blocking the winds. Almost a mini-climate of zone 5. Clematis and honeysuckle both do well here...but I have no luck with morning glories. We have too short a frost-free season, I guess. June 1 to August 25 is just not long enough for many good tomatoes, either.

Hi Lavender_lass: That's really short-season: June 1 to August 25 ... I feel guilty that I get May 1 to Dec. 1 to enjoy my roses. Recently I find that soil suitablity plays a factor in cold survival. Andrea from Cambridge England commented that her Liv Tyler died after the 1st winter in that zone 8. It's a Romantica rose bred in alkaline clay France. My Liv Tyler is HUGE, with at least 10+ buds now, Nov. 11. I moved a French rose, Sonia Rykiel and its root was 3 gallons for 1st year growth. Both Liv Tyler and Sonia Rykiel stand the best chance of winter survival. Next is Evelyn (huge with many blooms now), Evelyn likes alkaline soil.

Compare that to tiny-root Austin Eglantyne that died last winter ... I bought another one, its root shrank here. Rugosa heritage roses hate my alkaline heavy clay, the roots can't grow to survive my zone 5a winter. Kim Rupert's Annie Laurie McDowell did not survive Seil's winter of zone 6b. I moved Annie recently, it has HUGE root, at least 2 gallon - Annie is bred in Kim's alkaline clay soil like mine. It's good to know that his Lauren is hardy to zone 2b.

I have the best results with Canadian Explorer roses, rugosas, old fashioned roses (such as damasks, albas, centilfolias and gallicas) and surprisingly...climber/ramblers. I have two Veilchenblaus and one Bleu Magenta that have done very well, over a few cold winters.

We have clay soil, but it's pretty close to 7, when I tested it. We also add a lot of aged horse manure...which keeps the roses happy and helps the soil drain more easily. Nice to have a steady source of fertilizer :) {{gwi:325130}}From Lavender's Garden

Oh, I love that shot of your horses with the beautiful woodland in the background.

I love that horsy shot - so natural like being in the woods. Thanks, Lavender_lass for info. about your neutral clay soil ... then my water is too alkaline for Rugosa (pH of 8). New learning from my neighbor in her 70s', old enough to be my Mom: Since coarse sand is cheap $3 for a big bag, she dug a hole, took out the sticky clay at the bottom, dumped sand in, then refilled the top with native soil. It's lasagna method at its best to improve drainage. She has the best rose garden, really big roses.

The best learning was from rosarian Karl Bapst, zone 5a, who told me about thick black plastic, "Mulch Film" 4' x 50', sold for $5 at Menards. It's huge and can cover a large area to kill grass in advance for a garden. The decomposed grass enriched the soil, and I don't have to mulch either. Below is a pic. showing the black plastic cooking the grass. I extended the garden twice bigger than shown.

Good grief, strawberry, are you really in zone 5A and not 8A? What roses I had that were still blooming got wiped out in the last few days' awful cold front (of course it's due to warm up in another day or so, but that won't help). I can't believe that in the Chicago area you have roses blooming Dec 1. I'm so jealous--especially about your Evelyn. Could you email me a bloom (joking of course)?
Lavender lass, your arbor is wonderful. I wish I had room for one like that. And your horses look great with the lush backdrop of trees. Diane

I guess I will be learning for the rest of my life to dig good planting holes. And not mulch so heavily that water can't get through and plants can't push up from beneath. Last year we planted roses in well prepared holes, lots of half-rotted hay mixed with our pottery-quality gray clay. They grew nicely, not to mention that they survived the second-hottest and driest summer since record keeping began in 1800. Well, these roses aren't big, but they look healthy and bloomed well this fall, and that's good enough for me. This fall I took a look at other warm climate roses we planted in past years, roses that have never done much, and realized that we 1) dug grossly inadequate planting holes, 2) mulched way too heavily with hay, leaving the ground beneath dry and sterile, and 3) allowed the beds to fill with annual weeds that encourage canker. The last is a guess. So I've been doing a lot of digging around these roses, burying the old hay, and pulling a lot of weeds and clearing around the bases of the roses. We have had a very long mild fall with rain and sun--a remarkable autumn--and the warm climate roses have perked right up and opened lush blooms and are making me feel optimistic about Teas and Chinas in my garden. Meanwhile, in the case of the new roses we've been planting or shifting this fall, I've been taking pains to dig really good holes, large and with lots of hay added, and am looking forward to next May. Actually, it's just a satisfaction to know that we did a good job planting these roses. And I'm happy about all the dock I've dug up and all the lavender and rosemary I've planted, much of it as hedges.

Thank you, Melissa, for sharing your experience with us. Heirloom Roses advised putting horse manure with brown bedding in the bottom of the hole for drainage ... it's the same as my neighbor's putting coarse sand at the bottom. Mixing stuff together is bad, I learned the hard way ... I made plenty of potteries with gluey clay mixed with: 1) grass clippings 2) alfalfa meal 3) horse manure 5) peat moss .... they all became chunks of concrete a few months later, roses' roots can't expand. My sister in California said she made cement blocks out of her clay mixed with horse manure (takes 1 year to glue up).

Hi Diane: My roses are planted next to the house against a cement foundation, which keep them warm. The rain here keeps roses blooming. The best thing I did this year was to buy Suncast Resin (brown plastic) raised bed. It's $100 for a huge rectangle from Home Depot, and takes 10 minutes to snap together. Cedar wood bed is much cheaper, but due to the rain I settled for brown plastic. Too much work to dig out every limestone ... it's easier just to order a big pile of dirt, and fill the raised bed. Below picture was taken last fall, when I filled the raised bed first with fluffy leaves:

I got dramatic improvement on several roses this year by watering them more. The water bill took a bit hit, but the roses look fabulous!

Strawberryhill, lovely autumn in your yard. :) what is the bright red foliage on the extreme right?

Thanks Hoovb, that's a "Burning Bush", very drought-tolerant, light green in summer, and bright red in fall. It has tiny red berries for the birds to eat.

Speaking of water, I made shallow "swimming pool" by enclosing my garden in Lifetime Guaranteed Black Plastic Edging from Home Depot. Then I put wads of newspaper next to it, then bricks on top. No grass can invade that border, and it retains water well, even on a steep hill. There's a flat bed enclosed that way, and I never water it ... roses loved it, but irises died from a wet spring.

I love hearing all zone's rose stories here (so much knowledge!) ..but your rose stories mean alot to meStrawberry because you are one zone colder than me- and if your favorite roses can make it there, they should be golden here too.
And I've got clay as well.!
-A few years back, I bought big bags of bark to break it down, plus lots of other mulch and dirt. I ended up with 2 problems: i ran out of steam and made my holes smaller than i should have. It seems to not bother the roses, but the other plants act like they are in a clay pot and arent sending roots into the clay. (Heather). And i need to water the surrounding solid clay too or it wicks water from my plants.
The other was that the uncomposted bark tied up the nitrogen and everything needed extra fertilizer for a few years.
My forrester uncle told me it would do that, but i forgot and was scratching my head why everything was so yellow (leaves).
Someone hired a professional landscaper before we bought the house. They dealt with the clay by basically removing 10 inches and laying 6 inches of "sandy loam" (ahem! playground sand prett much") and then 4 inches of topsoil. It worked fairly well for a lot of things- but others up and died.
Anyway-This thread is about learning right? I learned that thrips like almost every plant in my garden. AND the best way to avoid thrips is to *avoid thrips. I will never bring hope thrippy plants thinking i can cure them. I plan to buy bareroots or only from those folks i know spray their pots to the Max (so I don't have too). Winter should kill the buggers and next year I'll order my nematodes early.

Hmmm, I detect a note of skepticism in your response, Strawberry. Heavy amendment with partly rotted hay seems to be working, though. The roses we planted last fall have now been in their places for a year. I've been working in that area this fall, digging around, and that soil is soft and the roses look happy, not to mention that we have earthworms. Lord knows the soil needed SOMETHING: I can't grow plants in the pottery clay we have here. Bring up this subject again in a year's time and I'll be happy to report on my results at that point, whether good or bad.
Melissa

Hi Melissa: You mean lola-lemon's last response or my response before that? Since I majored in chemistry for 2 years before getting my B.S. in Computer Science, I checked on the pH of rotted hay, it's quite acidic at 5. The advantages of hay:

1) Rotted hay's acidity releases carbonic acid to break down limestone. Hay is high in lignin (undigestible plant material), which also releases humic acid when broken down.

2) According to Wikipedia: "Modern investigations have found that humic acid is released from straw when mixed with mud." Check on the link to see how humic acid helps plants & soil.

The reason why pine bark DID NOT glue up like the wood chips bedding in horse manure is its acidity, high lignin, and its release of both humic acid and tannin when composted. The professional potting soil has lots of composted pine bark. Both pine bark and hay are NOT easily broken down like compost and peat moss, thus are ideal for separating clay particles.

Tannin in composted pine bark also has fungicidal properties. Lime also has fungicidal properties. Paul Neyron gave me blackspot hell for the 1st month, until I put him in a soil mix of composted pine park and lime. He's clean for the past 6 months. Below is a pic. of Paul Neyron in hot & humid weather. He's planted in the ground now, still clean.

Here is a link that might be useful: What is humic acid?

I agree with lola_lemon on extra nitrogen is needed when pine bark is used in breaking up clay. 1) Fresh pine bark dries up the soil, but COMPOSTED pine bark retains soil moisture 2) COMPOSTED pine bark has humic acid and tannin, and NOT fresh pine bark. 3) as bark breaks down, it robs nitrogen from soil.

Not all nitrogen are equal, and not all mulch are equal for earthworms. I was testing the soil pH of various mulches to see if soil surface's acidity links with blackspot germination, yes it does ... also found what earthworms don't like.

1) Mulched with horse manure and wood chips bedding, found a few earthworms.

2. Mulched with fresh grass clippings, tons of earthworms underneath. Same with fresh tomatoe branches and leaves mulch. One more reason to get leaf-grinder next year.

3) Zero earthworms with Hollytone (Feather Meal, Poultry Manure, Cocoa Meal, Bone Meal, Alfalfa Meal .. Sulfate of Potash and Elemental Sulfur). Earthworms don't like sulfur. Two roses broke out with blackspots with Hollytone.

4) Zero earthworms with chemical/organic nitrogen fertilizer 10-5-4 (poultry waste, cottonseed meal, ammonium phosphate, urea, sulfur). Earthworms don't like the salt in chemical fertilizer, nor the sulfur.

5) Lots of earthworm with bloodmeal, NPK of 12-0-0, very high in nitrogen. Eglantyne, with Rugosa heritage, HATED all chemical & sulfur fertilizer, but improved with blood meal. The rosarian Karl Bapst uses swine blood from slaughterhouse for his roses.

6) When I dug out soil with decomposed grass/sod on top, there were lots of earthworms. Once I used Hollytone in the planting hole, plus chemical nitrogen on top, that killed all earthworms.

Here is a link that might be useful: University of Idaho on bark and nitrogen depletion

I find this thread very interesting. And it sure shows how what one person can do in their garden another can not. The unfortunate part is the minor details that we probably do not realize are as important might not get noted.

In our CA garden, and with no wood chips in the mix, our adding composted horse manure to clay has not resulted in cement. Of course we added a LOT and never touch the soil if it is too wet. Too wet clay and "used straw" left in the sun to bake, would create some fine adobe building blocks. On the other hand, waiting til the soil is at the damp and crumbly stage when you add the horse manure and then not walking on it, has left us with garden soil so soft we have a hard time digging a square hole to set a gopher trap, it falls in on its self because it is so soft. But this did not happen over night or with just one application. Every spring we add several trash cans worth of composted horse manure to each veggie bed.

We also have not had a problem using pretty much "fresh" manure in the garden, although the places we used it were zones we wanted to work in the future, so we dumped several inches on the ground and left it a bit. Some places we used it as it was to plant pumpkins, winter squash, peppers and cucumbers (all the vines are either trained up a fence or away from the horse manure) We had a bumper crop with this method too. Even the back fence area where the heavy black clay was dumped when grading for the townhouses next door, where build is much better with a layer.

On the other hand, fresh manure dumped in rows or holes and covered with soil and a year later the manure has not broken down much at all. We learned a lesson from that and we now mix it with the soil and not cover it.

BUT, this is what works here where the soil never freezes, I would expect very different results if it froze. And the deeper and harder the freeze the more I would expect differences. My guy has a ranch and lake house practically in Canada, he knows to garden there....I am going to need a NICE green house!

You can successfully mix full composted material into the soil, whether its origin is manure, plant material, what ever. It is finished using nitrogen to break down so it will not tie up the nitrogen in the soil.

Plant material that has not fully composted, such as wood chips, dried hay, pine straw, and the like, can safely be used as a mulch on top of the soil. There it will bind nitrogen -- but only on the top layer of the soil were the mulch touches. Down where the plant roots are none of the nitrogen is affected.

So - compost is good either in or on the soil; mulch is good only on the surface.

(And gypsum does have its uses, primarily to swap calcium for the sodium in sodic soils through cation exchange.)

Rosefolly

I grew up on a 5-acres land in Michigan and did what Kippy does: topdressed the veges garden with chicken and cow manure ... great result. The rose park here with over 1,000 bushes topdressed their roses with cow manure one spring. It stank but that was the best display of roses in my 20 years of frequent visits.

I agree with Melissa in Italy in putting rotted hay AT THE BOTTOM of the hole for better drainage in heavy clay. Ehow has this instruction on how to make bricks with straw: 1)Add grass or straw to the dirt: one part grass or straw to six parts dirt. 2) stir in water 3) put the mud in mold 4) Place the molds, full of mud, in the sun to dry.

My neighbor, a Ph.D. in Botany, cut down a field of weeds, dug a huge trench, buried the weeds at the bottom, then fill with dirt. He's smart in that no-mixing, no-brick-making in our heavy clay that broke my rototiller machine.

In the old Newhall garden, there were places where the clay was so deep, so dense and so hard, no water penetrated it. I experienced green material worked into the lower levels of those areas after MUCH digging, actually souring instead of composting. That soil taught me the best thing to do with manure and green waste was to mulch with it where there was sufficient oxygen, heat and moisture from the overhead watering to allow it to digest, rather than sour. If your soil has enough oxygen to permit it to digest (compost) when buried, great, go for it! Dr. J.H. Nicholas confirmed my observations and experience in his Rose Odyssey (1937) with his advice "don't bury garbage!". Kim

Thank you, Kim, for that different perspective from a dry & warm climate. Burying stuff works here since our ground freezes/thaw in zone 5a winter, plus tons of melted snow & high rainfall. Limestone soil is corrosive. There's this "incorruptible" body of a Catholic saint which heretics threw lime on it to make it decompose, but hardy succeeded.

I put tons of banana peels at the bottom of a rose's hole. A year later, I dug up and found its roots went really deep into fluffy soil. Mulching with banana peels didn't work here, since our strong wind blew them them all over the lawn. What works for my limestone clay in a cold zone won't work for a different soil in a warm zone. Folks here don't use shovel to dig holes, they use pick-ax, that's how hard my soil is.

Strawberry, I have a feeling your neighbor dug that trench to bury his weeds knowing that they would eventually rot and not sprout at that level. Probably less a "feeding the soil" project than a way to get rid of weeds with out paying for green waste or having the seeds sprout. That does work for many weeds.

We found out the hard way, that you do really have to bury that stuff deep and leave it, we tried that with zapote leaves and fruit, it was a forest of sprouting zapote trees for a year or so.

One of the organic gardening guys did a clinic, his thought on compost vs mulch, Mulch you can see what the product is made of, compost should look more like the soil and be hard to tell what it is made out of.

Hi Kippy: I don't speak for people since I don't know their situation. All I know is putting stuff in the bottom be it coarse sand or fermented stuff that break downs the limestone layer helps with drainage in my clay soil zone 5a.

I finally found a website that rate the movement of NPK: "Both phosphorus and potassium are immobile in the soil, meaning they don't move readily with water. Let's compare the mobility of NPK on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being immobile and 10 being readily mobile. Nitrate nitrogen (NO3-) is a 10. It is extremely mobile and can be lost to leaching. Potassium is a 3. It has limited movement in the soil. Phosphorus has a rating of 1. It is extremely immobile in the soil and is likely to stay wherever it is placed."

The company that tested my soi, EarthCo., stated the same. Now I understand why Roses Unlimited said to put 1 cup of triple superphosphate in the planting hole. Bone meal works the same, also high in phosphorus. Unfortunately neither is available unless pH is neutral or below 7.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mind your P's and K's

I'm sure appreciating my sand right now. It may need lots of compost to be rich enough for lots of blooms, and it sure takes a LOT of water (glad I have a well) but it's heaven to dig through, I can't drown anything planted, and roses seem to like it well enough, amended or not. I can't imagine trying to dig 100 holes in clay...

I agree with you, harmonyp, that sand is easier to grow roses than clay. Years ago I read a book by a commercial rose grower in CA who successfully growed florist roses on sandy soil. Kitty Belandez's garden of CA alkaline sandy soil in HMF have tons of blooms.

Thank you, Lavender_lass, for your previous tip in another thread to break up clay: grow cover-crop. Below is a link to a research paper entitled "The influence of phosphorus on secretion of acid phosphatase by plants." The summary of that paper is: plants in phosphorus-deficient soil secret 2.7 to 5 times more acid phosphatase than plants in sufficient-phosphorus soil. Thus, professor Linda Chalker-Scott is right in stating that the use of phosphorus fertilizer is not necessary.

There's a discussion on whether sulfur is necessary to adjust high pH of soil, in the soil forum. The vote from experienced folks is "No", just plant the right stuff that do well in that range. Dr. Huey is an aggressive root system, very good in secreting acid which breaks through my heavy clay easier than my shovel. I found his root extending 4 feet in all directions in my rock-hard clay. My neighbor put a bed of HT's grafted on Dr. Huey - they bloomed like mad the first year, but died through our zone 5a winter.

Planting cover-crop to break up clay makes sense, since their extensive roots secrete acid phosphatase, plus decomposed cover-crop release humic acid to condition soil. I put thick black plastic "Mulch Film" to cook my grass. Six months later I pull up the plastic to find 100% decomposed grass, plus 6" of soil made fluffy by decayed roots. I tested that soil pH, it's around 7.4, same as what Chicago Botanical Gardens stated for their soil with decomposed leaves. Roses bloom easily in that fluffy soil. Below is how the grass looked like after 6 months under thick black plastic "Mulch Film":

Here is a link that might be useful: Acid phosphatase secretion by roots

Today I had a revelation.

The day started by my filling 4 trash cans with the sun baked dry horse manure from my bosses pasture. Took it up to moms and dumped around a few trees. The thought was to use as mulch not compost and hold some moisture in the ground (we had soaked the ground first and covered with the dry manure).

The trees are in the chicken zone...by the end of the day you would have thought I spent much of my day sifting horse manure and dusty dry top "soil" together. Seems what we really need to work our soil, lighten it up and rototil the first few inches is a flock of chickens.

Thinking by the end of the week, the manure will be pretty much missing, the soil under the trees will be light and fluffy but in need of a good raking to fill the new chicken pot holes.

Just wait until your chickens unearth a three to four inch potato bug, Kippy! You should be able to hear that ruckus for miles around! The only ones I've ever encountered (other than ones customers brought in for identification) have been in loads of horse manure. They can be QUITE startling as they are ugly and can get rather LARGE! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Jerusalem Cricket (Potato Bug)

Are you trying to give me nightmares Kim? As a teen, we were hanging out at a local church play ground waiting on parents who were leading a meeting, us bored kids were enjoying a structure made out of old tires. A parent finally came to tell us they were ready to go, they pointed their flashlight at the tire thing and it was crawling in potato bugs. I think every kid there that night has a complex about potato bugs, they had to have been crawling on us (guessing no kids had touched those tires in eons and we stirred them up....eeeewwwwwww)

I hate hate hate potato bugs. I guess one of the "benefits" of collecting your own road apples, is I first scrap them in to small piles, that exposes any bug that was enjoying the deposits. I like to only collect when it has been hot and dry, much easier to scrap and load full cans in the truck. The worst thing we usually get are pill bugs and the chickens make short work of those. Thankfully the most common weed is dock, so it is pretty easy to spot if it sprouts and the chickens seem to enjoy the hunt for the seeds.

I have thought hard about this question because an answer wasn't forthcoming.
I was asking myself: "have you really not learned anything this year?" The answer seemed to be "that's right!" and the reason is sometimes learning is very difficult or time consuming or both.
Sherry wrote that her SDLM was refusing to perform earlier this year. I was in shock because mine was blooming as I read her comment. But here's the rub, my Tradescant had not and still has not produced one bud this year.
I remember now why I didn't like that higher math I had to study - it was all those variables. Variables! I pruned Trad last year. I read the Austin advice on the matter for timing and followed it. Then there was the winter that wasn't. And a fruit tree has begun to provide dappled shade. Trad is pouting. I know that, but I don't know for sure which factor is the cause.
jerijen has often cautioned with specificity that certain roses resent pruning. We here in the Deep South know that chill hours are a requirement for certain things to bloom. We know as gardeners that a minimum amount of sun is required for good performance.
I was supposed to have learned long ago that becoming overly fond inevitably leads to disappointment. Could it be that simple, lol?
AND I only tip pruned Trad, not radically at all, just a few inches off the ends to encourage all those dormant buds to sprout along the stems.
So, I have learned that roses can refuse to perform as in this case, but I have not learned why. I, isn't it obvious, am defaulting to it being my actions - the pruning, as the cause because it's just naturally easiest to blame oneself. But I don't know and I must say that I don't like that one bit! Even though I can find no comfort in the experience, this is just one of those frustrating facts of gardening. Something I've learned before, but intentionally, I believe, forgot.

I'm learning to relax, spend less time obsessing over the roses and more time enjoying them! I didn't worry about spraying or even fertilizing much this season. I didn't worry about my soil condition or my pruning techniques. My roses did just great with out all that worrying. They grew and bloomed and gave me lots of pleasure. And I'm not going to worry about them wintering either. The pots will get their regular protection but the beds, well, they're on their own.