I listed Moonstone earlier. That is my favorite HT. I just figured out what I actually do grow in my garden. 27 varieties of antique's (OGR's, Austins and probably a few more on the way this spring). 18 varieties of HT's. That doesn't count any Fl., mini/miniflora's or poly's.

"LOL! Like that other "weed", ICEBERG, that: "blooms 13 months out of the year"? "

Absolutely! One of, if not THE finest flowering landscape shrubs ever raised. Kim

I'm starting a new garden here in NJ, but the roses going in the ground are mostly "antique" in look (real or reproduction). But I was drawn to the idea of collecting some dark red fragrant hybrid teas because -- realistic or not -- they represent the contemporary epitome of what a rose "is supposed to be" but would probably be at their best being coddled in large pots. Since my half of the shared back yard (two houses on one plot, both owned by the same landlord) is mostly paved, I thought I'd put together some pots of different sizes for accents. And for the "thriller" in each, I'm planting a dark red fragrant hybrid tea, filling the "filler" and "spiller" spots with annuals. I don't have them yet, but my list of of "wants" (on-order or soon will be) includes:

Barcelona
Black Lady
Black Velvet
Chateau de Clos Vougeot
Chrysler Imperial
Crimson Glory
Deep Secret
Lasting Love
Mister Lincoln
Night (aka Lady Sackville)
Nigrette
Oklahoma
Papa Meilland
Velvet Fragrance

I realize that's an obscenely long list for the size yard I have, so I'll just add a few at a time until I run out of room -- then probably find room for just one more.

:-)

~Christopher

Elina, which is a disease-free nonstop bloomer here. Actually blooms better in the heat, which means she's just getting cranking when many of my roses are slowing down because of the heat. I also would like to replace Mr. Lincoln. I lost him to my dreaded fungal cane dieback disease. He bloomed in the shade here.

Bluegirl - I have both Sunsprite and Pink Peace, and would highly recommend both of them. They are both very hardy, prolific bloomers, and both very fragrant - especially Pink Peace which I would call extremely fragrant. And they both stand up and produce in the peak of heat.

My "Double Delight" shipped today. I'm looking forward to cutting flowers like these. And they're supposed to smell as good as they look!

Double Delight by Symphony DaQueen:

Bellegallica: thanks for that great bouquet! I'm glad I ordered "Double Delight" for next year. I saw it with tons of bloom in 100 degrees hot summer at Cantigny park, so I ordered it. Pink Peace is my favorite since it has very few thorns as own-root, and makes good cut flower.

This is interesting discussion, and brings up a point, so many of us don't grow 'moderns' because of BS, we are 'no-spray'.... however, there are many breeders now growing 'no-spray', and I'm wondering how their 'moderns' fare in this regard, are they truly disease-free? I'm thinking mostly abt. the new Kordes roses, the Biltmore Gardens roses listed by Chamblee's, also several other breeders tout their 'offspring' as disease-free or resistant.... I have several Drift roses that seem immune to Fla. problems and plan on getting more, for the front of my beds.... what say you all Rosies out there? sally

New Zealand: the color is a lovely gentle shell-pink, with large flowers that never seem blowsy to me, and also show a very pretty yellow center. It has a very nice fragrance...and is an extremely tough plant with very healthy foliage. I'm excited about it! I also have "Queen Elizabeth", which honestly, I don't really care much for...but it's been here for more than thirty years!!! It's such a tall plant, even after a hard prune (almost 6 feet by the end of the season) and the flowers don't have much of a fragrance, and they blow pretty quickly once they're fully open...but seriously, that plant is a survivor! It was already fully mature when my parents bought this house in 1985, and ALL of the other hybrid teas that were in that bed died one by one, and the ones my mother planted to replace them also died (Brandy and Sterling Silver are two that I remember, and I HATED them even as a child) So, after all that, I prune it and feed it and otherwise let it do its thing and give it immense respect just for hanging on.
My mother grows "Just Joey" in her new garden, and I warned her that it would be nothing but trouble for her. However...I can admit to being wrong: that plant is seriously healthy, and even survived a major attack of Sawfly Larvae and NEVER had black-spot ONCE this summer. The flowers are impossibly big, but really...that color is quite attractive and 1,000 times more subtle than so many of the orange-tinted hybrid teas from that era.

Location. Location. Location.

I think the idea that all OGR's automatically have greater disease resistance to all moderns is a myth.

It all depends on what you're growing, and where you're growing it.

Black spot needs water and certain temperatures to germinate. According to U of Maine the conditions are:

As is true with most fungi, this fungus requires free water for infection to occur. The spores must be wet for at least 7 hours before they can germinate. A temperature of 65�F is best for spore germination and the disease develops most rapidly at about 75�F. Temperatures of 85�F and above inhibit the spread of the disease.

For people who grow roses in regions where the warm season coincides with the dry season, BS is never a problem.

If you grow roses where the wet and warm seasons coincide, that's another story. I live in one of those areas, and everything black spots to some degree.

Some roses might be more resistant than others, old or new. Some roses might have resistance to some strains of BS, but not to others.

In the end it's a gamble, and you just have to try different things.

Precisely, bellegallica. Just as important is what most people still don't understand or take in to consideration. Not all black spot is the same. There are FIVE, distinct, races of black spot in the US, fifteen in the world, which have been isolated and identified. Some roses have actually been determined to be resistant to specific races, but not to others.

There is vertical and horizontal resistance to black spot.
Vertical resistance is due to a single gene. Baby Love has vertical resistance. Until the fungi "learns to pick the lock" and overcome that specific gene's resistance, it remains extremely healthy. Once the fungi learns to overcome the resistance, Baby Love collapses. Horizontal resistance is due to a combination of several genes and is the greatest resistance.

A presentation given this past year and reported on the RHA, showed the common blackspot races in the USA are #'s 8,9, and 3. The presentation shows Double Knock Out has vertical resistance to races 9 and 3. Also, it has strong horizontal resistance. Double Knock Out is one of the most resistant roses to black spot available. VERY few older roses of any type have as great a black spot resistance.

So, not only does the health of the specific rose in question depend upon its particular vigor due to culture, but also to which specific strain of black spot is prevalent where it is being grown and what type, if any, resistance it has to that strain or strains. What is very resistant for me, might completely collapse for you because we have different "brands" of black spot, as well as whether our climates are more suitable for the vigor and weather resistance of the specific variety. Imagine how wonderful it will be when cultivars can be positively rated as resistant to specific strains of black spot and we are finally able to determine which areas of the country are more likely to have which strains! It's coming...all it requires is the money to get it rolling. Exciting stuff! Kim

Hi Kim!

Just today I unpacked your 'Too Cute.' She's about to be exposed to whatever strains of BS we have around here in southern Louisiana. (And I bet we have them ALL.)

It's also very possible that the old garden roses once were resistant to BS, but are not any longer. Cultivars are clones, and as such, the genes found in a plant grown today are identical to the ones of the same cultivar grown 300 years ago. In that time, however, BS has continued to evolve. The locks have remained the same, but the BS organisms have had a very long time to evolve keys to fit them.

:-)

~Christopher

How neat! I hope Too Cute behaves for you.

It COULD be that OGRs may have been resistant to the strains of fungi which existed when they were current. That's even harder to determine because when many were introduced, the heating oils and coal were much higher sulfur content than have been in use since. Earlier rose books bemoaned how this and that cultivar had "lost vigor through over propagation" because what had been healthy and vigorous, were no longer. What hadn't been considered was the nightly rain of fungicide the roses were bathed in from the dews and rains filtering the high sulfur levels out of the smoky city air. Once lower sulfur content fuels went into use, suddenly once healthy, vigorous roses "lost vigor through over propagation". OK.... Kim

Yep, Kim, there's also that. The old cultivars were hardy in the conditions and times in which they were bred, or else they would not have been grown. The conditions and times have changed, but the cultivars (being clones) have not. I think it's actually rather wonderful that so many not only still exist, but also that (when chosen correctly for different regions) they can still be hardy and vigorous.

:-)

~Christopher

Oh, right...back to modern hybrid teas....

I forgot to add that I picked another which will actually go into the garden rather than being grown in a pot (and I can't wait to smell its first flower next year). 'Lemon Spice' will arrive as a band in the end of April.

:-)

~Christopher

Lemon Spice was one of just a handful of roses out of my old massive Newhall garden which could be counted on to blow your sinuses out of your head, no matter what time of year nor what the prevailing weather conditions. Lemon Spice, Jadis, Double Delight, Typhoo Tea, Fragrant Cloud, Mr. Lincoln and Oklahoma were ALWAYS heavily scented, no matter what. Kim

Lemon Spice is nice and so many yellows don't have a good fragrance. Eternal Flame is a fragrant one too and I hear Elina is a nice yellow for scent. Mine's too small yet to tell. I got white licorice but I don't like the fragrance at all. The flowers are very pretty however.

Hi Sally (Saldut): With regard to your question, "there are many breeders now growing 'no-spray', and I'm wondering how their 'moderns' fare in this regard, are they truly disease-free?" I don't spray in my Chicagoland garden, and the breeders Kim Rupert, Paul Barden, and Robert Neil Rippetoe don't spray either. The Modern roses are FANTASTIC compared to troublesome OGRs such as Paul Neyron, Comte de Chambord, and Jacques Cartier ... all give me varying degrees of hell, either doing experiments to keep them clean, or making them bloom.

Roseseek, or Kim Rupert's Lynnie and Annie Laurie M. are 100% resistant to mildew and laughed at blackspots. Kim is right in buying the latest roses for better disease-resistant. My neighbor grows new release Hybrid teas such as "Big Momma", "Rock and Roll", and a pink 100% thornless floribunda - they are 100% clean, despite our humid summer, or all-week fall rain.

Robert Neil Rippetoe sent me tiny rootings of his new creations: a thornless blue rose, an orange rose (cross between Abraham Darby and Chinatown), and a beige rose (cross between Lynn Griffith andn Chinatown). They take plenty of abuse, constant fall rain, severe frosts - and still look good with ZERO BLACKSPOTS. Compare that blackspotted Jude the Obscure and Singing-in-the-Rain at the rose park, they spray heavily and the two above are known as disease-resistant.

If NOT for the great scents of Paul Neyron, Jacques Cartier, and Comte de Chambord, I would have nothing to do with them.

I have close to a dozen - Oklahoma, Lemon Spice, Whisky Mac, Sutter's Gold to name the ones that come immediately to mind. What really excites me lately is the planting of four Pope John Paul II I put in this spring. Talk about fragrant! These are amazing. And here, very healthy as well.

Rosefolly

Thanx strawberry, interesting information, and Kim raises the ?? as to BS localization... will be a great benefit when we can learn which strain of BS inhabits specific areas, and then determine which roses resist that strain and buy accordingly..... my Drift roses seem to be a good fit for here and I plan on getting more, also will try that Biltmore Gardens 'Loretta Lynn', that is one gorgeous rose, and recommends to zone 11 !! how rare is that! sally

Re.effect of climate, wow, it's been an eye-opener to move to the desert from the humid hot coast. The HTs are SO much better. Young plants put in here are taller than old ones I had back in "the armpit of hell" on the coast. The flowers last forever. Chrysler Imperial, Love, Tropicana, Bluegirl, etc. keep the scrolled form of their flowers for days & slowly open--each stage of the flowers last long enough to enjoy instead of rapidly rotting in the heat & humidity.

Bluegirl.......

From my experience, you are right on the mark.

When I first moved to this garden, so many of the roses that I brought with me and the roses that were given to me as a housewarming gift, fried in the hot temps of summer in this climate. No joy.

I finally looked at the roses that seemed to manage the heat for the plant characteristics that made them more heat tolerant. Roses of several classes passed the test of heat tolerance, but all but one HT were exceptionally heat tolerant. (I am keeping that one HT because it is so incredibly fragrant and I cut the buds before they are fried and bring them into the house.)

btw ... this year my favorite HT was 'Tournament of Roses'.

What I noticed was that the roses that stood up to my high summer temps all had thick petal substance and dense foliage. Earlier I wrote how I prune my roses for heat tolerance instead of following the guidelines that I found in every older rose book and article and the plants have benefited and become even more heat tolerant.

No matter how much I may love ogrs, and I do love many of them, they just don't have the plant characteristics that make them good garden roses in my climate. That's why I am adding five more HTs to this garden.

Strawberryhill ....

I also am growing 'Lyn Griffith x China Town' (listed as LYGXCHT on HMF...I've posted a couple of photos to HMF) initially because the seed parent was named after me, but now simply because I love the rose. Last year, it got through winter somewhat unprotected in a 7 gal squat pot. The pot froze and there was no die back on the rose, but my day temps are always above freezing. Yes, it has been totally clean for the last two years. It finally developed a large enough root mass and was planted in the garden this September. I am truly looking forward to seeing it as a mature plant.

Smiles,
Lyn

I like all kinds of roses and think each kind has it's own merits. I do think the shrubby kinds look better planted together. I like the taller HTs in their own space in back with shorter cluster flowered floribunda or polyanthas in front because the HTs don't stay short here for long.

Kitty, that brings me to my latest quandary - where to plant Mister Lincoln who is on Fortuniana rootstock. I only have one possible spot - by the mailbox. How do you think a super tall hybrid tea will look there?!? Everything else is roundish and bushy for now. In a few years there are a few Teas on the other side of the front circle that will get tall. In a way I think it will look kind of cool. I imagine by August every year he'll be 8' tall. Ha! Don't know how wide. Hopefully, not more than 4'. We will see, won't we?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

surely I have one? well no, although my all-time favourite climber is a HT, Madame Gregoire Staechelin, and I have a tiny Mrs Oakley Fisher and a couple of older singles (Dainty Bess, Dairy Maid) but nothing which I would class as a modern HT. Not that I dislike them (much), they just don't fit in my gardens anywhere - too formal, too neat, too perfect. All the same, while a couple of florries have crept in, am still a bit surprised that not one classic has found a little niche anywhere.

I'm loving this thread. Veterans Honor frankly was not on my radar. It is now. Thank you.
In our house we have an avowed red HT lover. Since he is also the master of hole digging I encourage his love. The red rose garden has Etoile de Holland, Epoca Maduri, Daniel, Olive, Crimson Bouquet, the Dark Lady, Mr Lincoln, Betty Boop, Double Delight and cl Cramoise Superior. Interplanted amongst the roses are oakleaf hydrangea, white gladiolas, white with purple trim dahlia's and white and plum Stargazer Lillies.
Excess redroses, such as Quadra, Red rambler and others which I cant recall at the moment are interplanted with the OGR garden..
Epoca is a rose that I wish were more popular. Huge smelly blooms that are extremely dark.
Jeannie

Lyn,
I'd love to read your post on pruning for heat tolerance. Where can I find it?
MB

I'd love to read that heat tolerance post, too.

Dainty Bess--yum. Love her fragrance, too. I keep saying I'll have her again one day. (Anyone a Mama's Family fan? "YOUR Herbert Hoover had his way with MY Dainty Bess!")

So many roses, so little space.

idixierose and bellegallica .....

I am uncomfortable saying this, but how I prune roses can't be found in any garden book or article. I figured it out by some problem solving and experimenting in this garden where summer temps are higher than any I had ever experienced in my rose gardening life.

I had read many articles in the ARS magazines and rose books and gardening magazines about how to prune roses, so I tried to follow the practices in those articles. The roses did OK so I thought I was doing the right thing. The general advice was to bring down the height of the rose by at least a third and remove all dead wood, diseased wood and twiggy growth. You have all seen those before and after photos or drawings.

When I bought this property, I had to learn how to garden on four levels. My time management sucked in the beginning. I couldn't get to all four levels to do the work necessary to prune all of the roses correctly and within the advised time period. The HTs Mrs. J planted out in front were the last roses to get attention. They had been neglected for more than a decade because Mrs. J was in her 90s when I bought the house.

Since I couldn't get out there, the deer were free to chomp on Mrs. J's HTs as much as they liked. So, come spring, they had already been lopped off. For a couple of years, all they got was good watering and feeding and no additional pruning. They didn't bloom much, but each year they seemed to become healthier plants. I finally had time to cage them, but still didn't do much pruning. The roses outgrew their first roses cages within a season and had a lot more bloom, but those blooms really weren't enough to make me want to give them more attention. I did notice that the plants had more bloom, but I thought that was because the deer were not eating the buds.

Kim Rupert (Roseseek) has been my rose mentor for a couple decades. His mantra has always been to "learn from the rose" and that's a principle I've tried to follow ...it ain't easy.

When I came up with the idea of how to keep the rose curculios from breeding in my garden by disbudding all of the roses in the garden during rose curculio season, I noticed that the roses were pushing out more foliage and more buds during the disbudding period. Without really thinking about it, I decided that the plant must be putting out additional foliage to support pushing out the additional buds and that roses had a mandate to bloom.

Then as time went on and the garden was becoming a rose garden, I noticed that the plants that I didn't have time to prune had denser foliage and seemed to have blooms with better petal substance. They also did not seem to wilt in the afternoons when the transpiration rate of moisture loss was higher than the plant could handle by pulling moisture up to the top growth from the roots.

I started connecting the dots. The plants need that foliage to be healthier plants in this climate. (Note: I have zero disease pressure during the summer because my temps are well above 85 degrees every day.) Since the night temps cool down by as much as 50 degrees, the roses ... pruned or not ... were able to bring enough moisture up to the top growth to revitalize the foliage. Additional watering didn't make any difference in the transpiration rate, but additional foliage made a major difference in how the roses handled the high temps.

Another experiment was born. I walked through the garden and noticed that all of that twiggy growth may not produce blooms, but it did produce foliage. So, I started pruning my roses from the bottom up instead of the top down .. removing old unproductive canes from the bottom of the plant and leaving any wood that was healthy. I experimented with cleaning out the center of the roses and not cleaning out the center. I also experimented with not taking off any of the top growth, taking off some of it or pruning it down harder, but always concentrating on how to leave the most wood to produce foliage ... and I kept notes.

I did find that no pruning was not as effective as doing some pruning of the top growth to open up the canopy at the top of the plant because it allowed light to reach the canes that were shaded by the foliage and the rose put up new shoots with even more foliage.

I found that I can't treat every rose exactly the same way to get denser foliage, but have to find out what triggers the rose to produce the foliage. Of course, if it is not genetically programmed to have dense foliage, I'll find that out by my experiments and doing some research.

Over the years, I've been doing this experiment, I have found that every rose, and I do mean "every rose in this garden", where I have pruned for foliage has been more heat tolerant than they were when I followed the advice found in books and articles. My roses also have less cane damage by sunburn and thus are less susceptible to disease (canker) and insect damage by cane borers.

The increased foliage also encourages .. if that is the right word ... the plant to pull even more moisture up to the top growth to maintain that foliage which increases the plant's heat tolerance.

I also noticed that roses with dense foliage tend to have thicker petal substance in the blooms which make them more heat tolerant.

Some roses will never be truly heat tolerant because they do not produce dense foliage and the blooms are not genetically programmed to have the thicker petal substance needed to last in the heat. So not matter what I do, the blooms will fry. Those are the roses that are just not suited for my climate.

I am sorry this post is so long, but it's really not a post about how to prune for heat tolerance. It's really about "learning from the rose."

Smiles,
Lyn

PS ... this spring, I widened the bed where Mrs. J's HTs are planted from 8" to 3' and took out all of the companion plants. I made the deer cages more than twice as large and they have outgrown their cages twice this year. I am going to have to make them even bigger next spring.

Lyn: AHHHMEEN!!!
It's so refreshing to read your experiences. I quit pruning the 'right' way, also, in a heat-blasted climate. When I started treating roses like the shrubs they are I got healthier more heat-resistant plants. I started crouching under each plant I wanted to groom & started from the bottom-up, keeping trimming to a minimum.

Don't know if it's analogous to roses, but in experimental plots here, when cedar & mesquite are removed & native grasses replaced, they literally raise the water table--wicking subsoil moisture up higher into the ground. The cedar scrub here is now thought to be an artifact of overgrazing pastures until the grass is killed out & snowballs into desertification of the land.

For years now, I quit butchering roses & instead encourage foliage growth. I also keep their beds as heavily planted as I can, with native & dense-rooted plants. Anyplace bare gets a thick mulch. It's improved health & vigor considerably

Lyn and bluegirl, what you've posted is so very interesting to me since I face the same problem. My experience really has nothing to do with pruning since I only perfected my method this summer, but when it's time to prune I'll certainly keep your comments in mind.

After a brutal summer this year, many of my roses looked miserable, ugly and sparse leaves, almost no bloom, gaunt and weary-looking bushes. I've written about this before here so I'll keep it brief. I mulched the roses much more deeply, kept them well-watered and removed all the dead growth. I just gently pruned them by taking off a bit of the height. The roses responded to this treatment and the somewhat cooler weather by putting out new leaves and buds. I did not allow a single bud to stay on the bushes and I was amazed at how many new leaves the roses produced. The bushes look fantastic compared to what they were before this treatment, and will have a much better chance at withstanding the heat next year.

Ingrid

I only started liking Antique Roses a very few years ago. Many HTs are gone from the garden now, replaced by older and more reliable old garden roses. HT's I'll never remove are Pope John Paul II and Julie Newmar, one of the very best HTs out there. It's only available from Armstrong so not much has been said about it. Mine is currently being crowded by Madame Antoine Mari and it may have to be moved but for now it just keeps growing taller and putting out the best glowing yellow cut roses. Another one I love is Veteran's Honor. The most satisfactory cut rose out there, IMHO.

The drought (& illness, deaths in my family, etc.)
re-enforced the minimal care methods I had been experimenting with for years. I wanted roses in this desert area--but only if I could rationalize them as low maintenance shrubs (ONCE ESTABLISHED--I expect young plants to need extra care & water).

The roses I've got in the ground here are deep planted in good soil & there are dense stands of clover & native wildflowers around them. Any exposed ground is heavily mulched with native (mostly cedar) shredded stuff. I deep-water these guys no more than twice/month. Most of the year I only water once monthly--6 weeks.

As I colonize areas for beds I remove all wildflowers to be replanted thickly around the planted roses. It's worked very well for me & after several rose-less depressing years I'm starting to look forward to waking up & visiting the flowers each morning :)

Lyn,

Thank you so much for taking the time to give that thoughtful reply. I clipped it so I can have it forever. My roses are young and won't need serious pruning for some time, but you've given me a lot to think about as far as how I'm going to approach it when the time comes.

Particularly in hotter, more arid areas, allowing the roses to clothe themselves in as much foliage as they can makes them healthier and increases longevity greatly. They FEED themselves more efficiently, permitting their immune systems to function as they are supposed to. The leaves provide the sun protection against sun scald; shade the ground, preventing a lot of weed growth and helping prevent the soil in their root zones from baking dry, especially if the bushes are planted sufficiently close so they help shade the ground between them.

In one of the ARS annuals from the 70s, IIRC, research showed for florist roses, it required 35 perfect leaves to create one perfect flower. I'd think similar should be true for the average garden rose. Larger bushes, higher numbers of leaves should result in greater quantities of flowers. Larger plants have larger root systems, capable of foraging greater areas for more water and resources. Of course, it doesn't work that way where more severe pruning is required for snow, winter protection, wind resistance, extreme disease issues, etc., but where the sun and heat extremes are severe, letting them get big and planting more densely has definite benefits. Kim

Bluegirl ...

You might want to do a Google search on "dry farming". It's not always appropriate and a lot of grazing land was destroyed in the 1800s when the native grasses were dug up and people tried to implement dry farming, but in some areas it is very successful.

Ingrid ...

What you said about seeing increased foliage is what I saw when I started to disbud my roses in spring to keep the curculios from breeding in my garden and led to my experiment in pruning differently in this garden.

Kim ... thank you for explaining why pruning for foliage works in my climate.

bellegallica ... You really need to thank Kim. My whole post was about his mantra of learning from the roses.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread because I am enjoying reading about the roses people have found to be garden worthy. I forgot to mention in my post above that I am also growing a rescued 'Double Delite' and I may add 'Duet' to the garden because Jackie recommended it so highly.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'm guessing that leaving more foliage during hot weather helps to cool the plant by increasing the rate of evapo-transpiration -- drawing more of the cooler water from the ground to circulate through the plant, dissipating heat. With fewer leaves, there is less evaporation, and thus a decrease in the pull of water from the roots. As long as the plants get water, the cooling system will work. It's just a guess...thoughts?

:-)

~Christopher

Why not Christopher? Works for trees cooling the air. Natural "swamp cooler". Kim

I'm loving this discussion on how to grow roses in hot, dry climates. Thanks to you all! And the original topic is great too. I have a notion I may have to start a Hybrid Tea garden one day.
Melissa

Oh, wow, I am such a sucker to these descriptions! Just sent an email to RU enquiring about Firefighter, Oklahoma and Stephen's Big Purple. My DH loves the bigger, brighter roses, so this is for him...

Oh, and of course I want to try Young Lycidas after Ingrid's post, and Francis Dubreuil after Kim's post!

I was told that plants like to be grouped together so they stay cool. I put all my potted plants together in the shade during a heatwave for that reason. Everything in my garden is on the overgrown side. The only time it looks tidy is right after spring pruning when the new leaves grow. The rest of the time I let them be large with as many leaves as possible. I started using Jeri's advice and just snap old flowers off now and I get even more leaves than before!

Nothing makes me happier right now than hearing that planting roses densely together is good for them. I'm giggling at some of the prior posts about finding that perfect spacing when starting to plant them...

Harmony, in these kinds of climates and if being shredded all around your body as you wade into them for maintenance or flower collection isn't an issue, yes, this works. Perhaps in wetter and colder climates it wouldn't be advised? Where good air circulation would help prevent disease issues or better spacing permit easier winter protection, you may not wish to crowd them too closely. Anywhere "blood letting" isn't desired, wider spacing would definitely be preferable, but for extremes in heat, sun exposure and brilliance and aridity, where disease and insect issues are generally greatly reduced or even eliminated, closer "crowding" can be quite beneficial. Kim

Kim, you've described my environment perfectly. And I believe I owe part of my health to continual blood letting!

Mine, too, both climates as well as "blood donations"! I wish it was enough to repel the rabbits, squirrels and desert rats! Kim

Don Juan
Angel Face
Perfumed Delight

All three doing well in my no-spray "sauna" garden (I live in Houston, it was in the upper 70's and it rained--TODAY! Last week it got to 90ish! It's December!)

On the other hand, ask me how many Polyanthas and Chinas I've killed...on second thought, let's not talk about it.

Someone posted a picture of San Jose Rose Garden ... the roses are tall and planted really close together like a forest. In contrast, the rose park in zone 5a plant their roses widely spaced apart, for ventilation due to blackspot pressure, and for maximum sun-exposure during low-sun fall and winter season. What Kim said about the difference between hot and cold climate is right.

We have 4 seasons here: sunny and wet spring, sunny and hot summer, gloomy and wet fall, and cold winter. My husband set the blade to cut grass higher, so that the grass is taller in spring and summer to shield the roots from drying out. My neighbor butchered his grass really short, and it looks really bad scorched at above 90's.

In our less sun fall, he lowers the blade, so the grass is cut shorter to allow more sun to penetrate, so we would have less mushroom growing on the lawn in our damp fall.

Why do people heavily fertilize grass like they want a hay crop then scalp it so the sod turns to brick? Why? HUH?

That's exactly what my neighbor does, and I wonder why. I use the spreader-broadcast for weed & feed, since we have a severe dandelion problem .... without weed & feed pellets, my lawn will be 100% dandelions, and my neighbors will kill me for dandelions seeds carried by wind to their manicured lawn. But I never water my lawn, even during the 2004 drought. Lawn fertilizer is high in nitrogen, and nitrogen fertilizer is highest in salt. During 2004 drought, the ones who fertilized and watered their lawn, ended up having to replace the sod the following spring. I don't us weed & feed during hot summer months with drought. I use it early spring, Halloween, and Thanksgiving to get rid of dandelions.