Are there any Antique Rose lovers on this forum who have a favorite modern Hybrid Tea hidden in the back yard?

(You know, the kind with horribly high centers, unsightly upright growth, and ludicrously long stems begging for a cutting?)

What's your guilty pleasure?

Check out 'Gardens Of The World.'

Grows and blooms on its own roots, has no disease problems in Southern California. This is a beautiful rose, which was introduced as a "throwaway," and got no respect from J&P.

Jeri

ogrose, I don't have any yet, either, but I have a 'Double Delight' on order and was feeling guilty. I wanted to know I was in good company, so I posted the question. :-)

I love Sheer Bliss, I find it to be one of the most beautiful of the modern Hybrid Teas.

I have modern Hybrid Teas mixed in with the Austins and antiques, and it makes for an interesting effect, to see the old and new side by side.

LOVE it! LOL. :-)

'Gardens Of The World' is better for OUR garden, because it never mildews, and doesn't have too many petals to open well.

It CAN do exhibition form -- but more often does a ruffly decorative form. And yes -- the color darkens when the weather is warm -- and as the bloom matures.

Jeri

Ingrid

I'm getting Double Delight for the scent. Everyone raves about it.

Yves Piaget, one of the Romanticas. I grew Frederic Mistral once. Even own root the first canes grew up, up, up, over my head. I thought, "That is a BIG rose." It kind of scared me. It made me think of a Triffid. I gave it away. Now I wish I'd kept it. It would look spectacular in the back of a border.

Queen Elizabeth
Tournament of Roses
Tropicana

I will be adding five more next year, well one is classed as a grandiflora, but close enough:

Gardens of the World
Mint Julip
Sweet Afton
Velvet Fragrance
Paloma Blanca
White Delight

They are all over wintering in a friend's greenhouse and I am really excited about adding them to the garden.

Smiles,
Lyn

Of the five Autumn Sunset climbers I planted there (sport of Westerland, and supposedly a great one for the South), four are alive. I'm told that one of them had one bloom, this spring. "Oh, but it was a lovely color. People on bicycles would stop and ask what it was! And really, we don't mind the bare canes rearing themselves above the Holly topiaries. Honestly! They remind us of those Martian Tripod legs in 'War of the Worlds'.

I suppose I'm cheating, though, since Westerland is classed as a Floribunda.

Here in Oregon, I'm too busy with old European and Hybrid Perpetual Roses to bother with Modern Hybrid Teas. Finally! Weather cool enough to try all those things I'd only been able to dream about growing.

I think my Great Grandfather had it right. He'd bring those trashy HTs home from the grocery store, stick them in his vegetable garden for one season, and then plow them under when it was time to put in his winter crops. By the end of the season, they were so disease-ridden and defoliated, it was time for them to go.

Veteran's Honor- This rose REALLY loves to bloom and responds very well to pruning between flushes. It's a tall plant (7 feet right now) and is in the back of the border. I just indiscriminately hack the plant back after flowering, and it grows right back happily. Such a good rose, and the flowers last forever. Veteran's Honor has almost four whole feet of naked legs, but as he has plants in front of him you can't see them.

Pope John Paul II- I've heard it said that this is a weak plant in colder zones, but that is not the case for my area at all (I think this is a rose that wants heat to perform). This is a very strong plant (or plants, I have two) with inch wide canes at the base that form a plant at least five feet tall by a little over three feet wide. It flowers almost continuously and smells incredible. No disease problems at all, ever.

Barbra Streisand- A lot of people don't like this rose because of disease problems, but honestly I don't find that Babs gets MORE blackspot than any other hybrid tea prone to it. She lives in my cutting row, which tends to receive the most attention. For Thanksgiving she rewarded me with seven perfectly formed, divinely scented blooms for the vase. A huge standout in the fragrance department.

I also like Pink Peace, Gemini, Liv Tyler, WWII Memorial and Grande Dame.

The ones my dad planted; Mr Lincoln, Don Juan and the white virused wonder (Going to take her out and put in a second Don Juan because they are on an arch)

The ones I bought because mom wanted roses, I was being cheap and wanted some thing I would not worry about pulling out later; Queen Elizabeth, St Patrick, Sheer Bliss and Bewitched. I got Peace too because mom wanted her (now in a bad spot but big bush)

The ones we were given; Elle, Moonstone and something orange red.

The ones I bought to fill in a spot that I might have to cut if we need work done under the house and I would not be too sad if they were cut low; Perfume Delight, JC's Rose and Blue Girl.

Then there are the ones I picked and like; Neptune and Yves Piaget.

Bewitched, too. I loved the TV show, and we almost share an introduction date. Bewitched came out in '67 and, I was born in '68.

If I may make some suggestions (please take my dry hot climate into account). Just Joey is fascinating, but you have to be ok with a medium orange color - it isn't bright, but it also isn't subtle. It also isn't fragrant. But the blooms are some of the prettiest I've ever seen.

For that classic HT shape, Stainless Steel is really different. Somewhere between very light lavendar and light gray, big, perfect cutting blooms with the sweetest of fragrances. If I were to be blindfolded and presented with a list of highly fragrant HTs, this one would stand out to me, as breathing it in transports me to a different place ... it's really beautiful. Not as strong as Double Delight, but more delightful I think.

And I'm biased about the reds, feeling Chrysler Imperial is the best HT red I have come across. But it is VERY red, not dark like Oklahoma, but much more prolific. I understand it likes dry climates though which is probably why I'm so happy with it.

Hope it was ok to interfere ...

I have one HT that I consider to be an ironclad rose -- Tantau's 'Acapella'. It has a tall, slender growth habit, fine foliage with NO disease issues, it pumps out well-formed blooms all summer long (regardless of the heat), and on this Thanksgiving weekend it's the only HT in my garden that is still blooming reasonably well. Remarkably, 'Acapella' performs equally as well in my in-laws' Wisconsin garden. Definitely a Hybrid Tea I'll try to always keep around . . .

Need to check this out; but, the old roses will always be my first love!

Tropicana--Mother grew this one
Iceberg--same
Talisman--Grandmother loved it
Chrysler Imperial--Such luscious color & fragrance
Love--what a striking bi-color
Cherish--another Mom's favorite
Bluegirl--smells wonderful, the only 'blue' I've been able to keep
Permanent Wave--cute little frilly blooms

Bewitched, Typho Tea, Pink Chiffon, Curly Pink, Memorial Day--bought for fragrance & beautiful blooms

Have Radiance & Crimson Glory on order--sentimental favorites & so fragrant.

I want to add a Peace, too. My mother & grandmother loved it so much

Perhaps there is hope for me.

Luxrosa

I like modern hybrid teas like Firefighter (even less thorns than Frederic Mistral), and Romantic 2006 Sweet Promise ... this has so little thorns, I consider it almost smooth. The scent is like fresh appple blossoms in spring time, pure heaven. It likes alkaline soil and wet climate, below is a bloom of Sweet Prommise in 90 degrees heat:

Curly Pink - Interestingly, Crimson Glory is a parent of this rose. (Bluegirl, how is yours doing?)
Stephen's Big Purple
Naga Belle
Mister Lincoln

Iridescent Pink - an unknown type by a Florida hybridizer

4 Austins - Tradescant, Jude the Obscure, Lady of Megginch and Darcey Bussell

Perhaps I have gone over to the dark side, but I figured my garden ought to have in it what makes me happy. If these prove to be healthy, I will be very happy.

Sherry

All of my HTs are old plants. None of them have bare legs and in this garden have no disease problems. The blooms stand up to the high summer temps in my garden and are the most rewarding roses in the garden. I love the open bloom form more than I do the blooms at the exhibition stage.

I cannot grow once blooming roses or very tall plants because of the rose curculios, so that leaves out a lot of the ogrs. I also feel like I need the thick petal substance found in most HTs to endure the heat of high 90s to low 100s months on end.

After reading this thread, I can see that there are many HTs that can be a real addition to the garden. To be honest, I don't think I would have thought of adding HTs to the garden if I hadn't seen how wonderfully Mrs. J's Hts performed.

Smiles,
Lyn

People in that area expected other flowers to be ephemeral--why be so hard on HTs? By May/June the azaleas were droopy, Physostegia, buttercups, marigolds, ferns, etc. started to get cruddy looking or downright blasted. When the really hot weather hit it was time to mulch these down & enjoy esperanza, firecracker, plumeria & honeysuckle.

Sherry, one reason I got Curly Pink was because of its heritage. It was an own-root band from RU this spring & now has about 18" spread & several buds. The blooms have great fragrance & an "over-stuffed" appearance, there are so many petals.

Other moderns I want to replace are
SUNSPRITE--lush stay-green foliage, deep true yellow, fragrant flowers & lots of them.
ARTISTRY--vigorous grower, lots of fragrant fuchsia blooms--maybe too loud a color for some, to me it's just exuberant.
PINK PEACE--see above
Oh, my choices would only be limited by money & time. I forgive HTs for taking the summer off & cut them some slack since I can look forward to fall. Heck, I don't even like to go outside myself, then, if I can avoid it:)

Mmmm, ICEBERG--another modern I wouldn't be without.

Absolutely! One of, if not THE finest flowering landscape shrubs ever raised. Kim

Barcelona
Black Lady
Black Velvet
Chateau de Clos Vougeot
Chrysler Imperial
Crimson Glory
Deep Secret
Lasting Love
Mister Lincoln
Night (aka Lady Sackville)
Nigrette
Oklahoma
Papa Meilland
Velvet Fragrance

I realize that's an obscenely long list for the size yard I have, so I'll just add a few at a time until I run out of room -- then probably find room for just one more.

:-)

~Christopher

Double Delight by Symphony DaQueen:

I think the idea that all OGR's automatically have greater disease resistance to all moderns is a myth.

It all depends on what you're growing, and where you're growing it.

Black spot needs water and certain temperatures to germinate. According to U of Maine the conditions are:

As is true with most fungi, this fungus requires free water for infection to occur. The spores must be wet for at least 7 hours before they can germinate. A temperature of 65�F is best for spore germination and the disease develops most rapidly at about 75�F. Temperatures of 85�F and above inhibit the spread of the disease.

For people who grow roses in regions where the warm season coincides with the dry season, BS is never a problem.

If you grow roses where the wet and warm seasons coincide, that's another story. I live in one of those areas, and everything black spots to some degree.

Some roses might be more resistant than others, old or new. Some roses might have resistance to some strains of BS, but not to others.

In the end it's a gamble, and you just have to try different things.

There is vertical and horizontal resistance to black spot.
Vertical resistance is due to a single gene. Baby Love has vertical resistance. Until the fungi "learns to pick the lock" and overcome that specific gene's resistance, it remains extremely healthy. Once the fungi learns to overcome the resistance, Baby Love collapses. Horizontal resistance is due to a combination of several genes and is the greatest resistance.

A presentation given this past year and reported on the RHA, showed the common blackspot races in the USA are #'s 8,9, and 3. The presentation shows Double Knock Out has vertical resistance to races 9 and 3. Also, it has strong horizontal resistance. Double Knock Out is one of the most resistant roses to black spot available. VERY few older roses of any type have as great a black spot resistance.

So, not only does the health of the specific rose in question depend upon its particular vigor due to culture, but also to which specific strain of black spot is prevalent where it is being grown and what type, if any, resistance it has to that strain or strains. What is very resistant for me, might completely collapse for you because we have different "brands" of black spot, as well as whether our climates are more suitable for the vigor and weather resistance of the specific variety. Imagine how wonderful it will be when cultivars can be positively rated as resistant to specific strains of black spot and we are finally able to determine which areas of the country are more likely to have which strains! It's coming...all it requires is the money to get it rolling. Exciting stuff! Kim

Just today I unpacked your 'Too Cute.' She's about to be exposed to whatever strains of BS we have around here in southern Louisiana. (And I bet we have them ALL.)

:-)

~Christopher

It COULD be that OGRs may have been resistant to the strains of fungi which existed when they were current. That's even harder to determine because when many were introduced, the heating oils and coal were much higher sulfur content than have been in use since. Earlier rose books bemoaned how this and that cultivar had "lost vigor through over propagation" because what had been healthy and vigorous, were no longer. What hadn't been considered was the nightly rain of fungicide the roses were bathed in from the dews and rains filtering the high sulfur levels out of the smoky city air. Once lower sulfur content fuels went into use, suddenly once healthy, vigorous roses "lost vigor through over propagation". OK.... Kim

:-)

~Christopher

I forgot to add that I picked another which will actually go into the garden rather than being grown in a pot (and I can't wait to smell its first flower next year). 'Lemon Spice' will arrive as a band in the end of April.

:-)

~Christopher

Roseseek, or Kim Rupert's Lynnie and Annie Laurie M. are 100% resistant to mildew and laughed at blackspots. Kim is right in buying the latest roses for better disease-resistant. My neighbor grows new release Hybrid teas such as "Big Momma", "Rock and Roll", and a pink 100% thornless floribunda - they are 100% clean, despite our humid summer, or all-week fall rain.

Robert Neil Rippetoe sent me tiny rootings of his new creations: a thornless blue rose, an orange rose (cross between Abraham Darby and Chinatown), and a beige rose (cross between Lynn Griffith andn Chinatown). They take plenty of abuse, constant fall rain, severe frosts - and still look good with ZERO BLACKSPOTS. Compare that blackspotted Jude the Obscure and Singing-in-the-Rain at the rose park, they spray heavily and the two above are known as disease-resistant.

If NOT for the great scents of Paul Neyron, Jacques Cartier, and Comte de Chambord, I would have nothing to do with them.

Rosefolly

From my experience, you are right on the mark.

When I first moved to this garden, so many of the roses that I brought with me and the roses that were given to me as a housewarming gift, fried in the hot temps of summer in this climate. No joy.

I finally looked at the roses that seemed to manage the heat for the plant characteristics that made them more heat tolerant. Roses of several classes passed the test of heat tolerance, but all but one HT were exceptionally heat tolerant. (I am keeping that one HT because it is so incredibly fragrant and I cut the buds before they are fried and bring them into the house.)

btw ... this year my favorite HT was 'Tournament of Roses'.

What I noticed was that the roses that stood up to my high summer temps all had thick petal substance and dense foliage. Earlier I wrote how I prune my roses for heat tolerance instead of following the guidelines that I found in every older rose book and article and the plants have benefited and become even more heat tolerant.

No matter how much I may love ogrs, and I do love many of them, they just don't have the plant characteristics that make them good garden roses in my climate. That's why I am adding five more HTs to this garden.

Strawberryhill ....

I also am growing 'Lyn Griffith x China Town' (listed as LYGXCHT on HMF...I've posted a couple of photos to HMF) initially because the seed parent was named after me, but now simply because I love the rose. Last year, it got through winter somewhat unprotected in a 7 gal squat pot. The pot froze and there was no die back on the rose, but my day temps are always above freezing. Yes, it has been totally clean for the last two years. It finally developed a large enough root mass and was planted in the garden this September. I am truly looking forward to seeing it as a mature plant.

Smiles,
Lyn

Sherry

Dainty Bess--yum. Love her fragrance, too. I keep saying I'll have her again one day. (Anyone a Mama's Family fan? "YOUR Herbert Hoover had his way with MY Dainty Bess!")

So many roses, so little space.

I am uncomfortable saying this, but how I prune roses can't be found in any garden book or article. I figured it out by some problem solving and experimenting in this garden where summer temps are higher than any I had ever experienced in my rose gardening life.

I had read many articles in the ARS magazines and rose books and gardening magazines about how to prune roses, so I tried to follow the practices in those articles. The roses did OK so I thought I was doing the right thing. The general advice was to bring down the height of the rose by at least a third and remove all dead wood, diseased wood and twiggy growth. You have all seen those before and after photos or drawings.

When I bought this property, I had to learn how to garden on four levels. My time management sucked in the beginning. I couldn't get to all four levels to do the work necessary to prune all of the roses correctly and within the advised time period. The HTs Mrs. J planted out in front were the last roses to get attention. They had been neglected for more than a decade because Mrs. J was in her 90s when I bought the house.

Since I couldn't get out there, the deer were free to chomp on Mrs. J's HTs as much as they liked. So, come spring, they had already been lopped off. For a couple of years, all they got was good watering and feeding and no additional pruning. They didn't bloom much, but each year they seemed to become healthier plants. I finally had time to cage them, but still didn't do much pruning. The roses outgrew their first roses cages within a season and had a lot more bloom, but those blooms really weren't enough to make me want to give them more attention. I did notice that the plants had more bloom, but I thought that was because the deer were not eating the buds.

Kim Rupert (Roseseek) has been my rose mentor for a couple decades. His mantra has always been to "learn from the rose" and that's a principle I've tried to follow ...it ain't easy.

When I came up with the idea of how to keep the rose curculios from breeding in my garden by disbudding all of the roses in the garden during rose curculio season, I noticed that the roses were pushing out more foliage and more buds during the disbudding period. Without really thinking about it, I decided that the plant must be putting out additional foliage to support pushing out the additional buds and that roses had a mandate to bloom.

Then as time went on and the garden was becoming a rose garden, I noticed that the plants that I didn't have time to prune had denser foliage and seemed to have blooms with better petal substance. They also did not seem to wilt in the afternoons when the transpiration rate of moisture loss was higher than the plant could handle by pulling moisture up to the top growth from the roots.

I started connecting the dots. The plants need that foliage to be healthier plants in this climate. (Note: I have zero disease pressure during the summer because my temps are well above 85 degrees every day.) Since the night temps cool down by as much as 50 degrees, the roses ... pruned or not ... were able to bring enough moisture up to the top growth to revitalize the foliage. Additional watering didn't make any difference in the transpiration rate, but additional foliage made a major difference in how the roses handled the high temps.

Another experiment was born. I walked through the garden and noticed that all of that twiggy growth may not produce blooms, but it did produce foliage. So, I started pruning my roses from the bottom up instead of the top down .. removing old unproductive canes from the bottom of the plant and leaving any wood that was healthy. I experimented with cleaning out the center of the roses and not cleaning out the center. I also experimented with not taking off any of the top growth, taking off some of it or pruning it down harder, but always concentrating on how to leave the most wood to produce foliage ... and I kept notes.

I did find that no pruning was not as effective as doing some pruning of the top growth to open up the canopy at the top of the plant because it allowed light to reach the canes that were shaded by the foliage and the rose put up new shoots with even more foliage.

I found that I can't treat every rose exactly the same way to get denser foliage, but have to find out what triggers the rose to produce the foliage. Of course, if it is not genetically programmed to have dense foliage, I'll find that out by my experiments and doing some research.

Over the years, I've been doing this experiment, I have found that every rose, and I do mean "every rose in this garden", where I have pruned for foliage has been more heat tolerant than they were when I followed the advice found in books and articles. My roses also have less cane damage by sunburn and thus are less susceptible to disease (canker) and insect damage by cane borers.

The increased foliage also encourages .. if that is the right word ... the plant to pull even more moisture up to the top growth to maintain that foliage which increases the plant's heat tolerance.

I also noticed that roses with dense foliage tend to have thicker petal substance in the blooms which make them more heat tolerant.

Some roses will never be truly heat tolerant because they do not produce dense foliage and the blooms are not genetically programmed to have the thicker petal substance needed to last in the heat. So not matter what I do, the blooms will fry. Those are the roses that are just not suited for my climate.

I am sorry this post is so long, but it's really not a post about how to prune for heat tolerance. It's really about "learning from the rose."

Smiles,
Lyn

PS ... this spring, I widened the bed where Mrs. J's HTs are planted from 8" to 3' and took out all of the companion plants. I made the deer cages more than twice as large and they have outgrown their cages twice this year. I am going to have to make them even bigger next spring.

Don't know if it's analogous to roses, but in experimental plots here, when cedar & mesquite are removed & native grasses replaced, they literally raise the water table--wicking subsoil moisture up higher into the ground. The cedar scrub here is now thought to be an artifact of overgrazing pastures until the grass is killed out & snowballs into desertification of the land.

For years now, I quit butchering roses & instead encourage foliage growth. I also keep their beds as heavily planted as I can, with native & dense-rooted plants. Anyplace bare gets a thick mulch. It's improved health & vigor considerably

After a brutal summer this year, many of my roses looked miserable, ugly and sparse leaves, almost no bloom, gaunt and weary-looking bushes. I've written about this before here so I'll keep it brief. I mulched the roses much more deeply, kept them well-watered and removed all the dead growth. I just gently pruned them by taking off a bit of the height. The roses responded to this treatment and the somewhat cooler weather by putting out new leaves and buds. I did not allow a single bud to stay on the bushes and I was amazed at how many new leaves the roses produced. The bushes look fantastic compared to what they were before this treatment, and will have a much better chance at withstanding the heat next year.

Ingrid

The roses I've got in the ground here are deep planted in good soil & there are dense stands of clover & native wildflowers around them. Any exposed ground is heavily mulched with native (mostly cedar) shredded stuff. I deep-water these guys no more than twice/month. Most of the year I only water once monthly--6 weeks.

As I colonize areas for beds I remove all wildflowers to be replanted thickly around the planted roses. It's worked very well for me & after several rose-less depressing years I'm starting to look forward to waking up & visiting the flowers each morning :)

Thank you so much for taking the time to give that thoughtful reply. I clipped it so I can have it forever. My roses are young and won't need serious pruning for some time, but you've given me a lot to think about as far as how I'm going to approach it when the time comes.

In one of the ARS annuals from the 70s, IIRC, research showed for florist roses, it required 35 perfect leaves to create one perfect flower. I'd think similar should be true for the average garden rose. Larger bushes, higher numbers of leaves should result in greater quantities of flowers. Larger plants have larger root systems, capable of foraging greater areas for more water and resources. Of course, it doesn't work that way where more severe pruning is required for snow, winter protection, wind resistance, extreme disease issues, etc., but where the sun and heat extremes are severe, letting them get big and planting more densely has definite benefits. Kim

You might want to do a Google search on "dry farming". It's not always appropriate and a lot of grazing land was destroyed in the 1800s when the native grasses were dug up and people tried to implement dry farming, but in some areas it is very successful.

Ingrid ...

What you said about seeing increased foliage is what I saw when I started to disbud my roses in spring to keep the curculios from breeding in my garden and led to my experiment in pruning differently in this garden.

Kim ... thank you for explaining why pruning for foliage works in my climate.

bellegallica ... You really need to thank Kim. My whole post was about his mantra of learning from the roses.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread because I am enjoying reading about the roses people have found to be garden worthy. I forgot to mention in my post above that I am also growing a rescued 'Double Delite' and I may add 'Duet' to the garden because Jackie recommended it so highly.

Smiles,
Lyn

:-)

~Christopher

Oh, and of course I want to try Young Lycidas after Ingrid's post, and Francis Dubreuil after Kim's post!

All three doing well in my no-spray "sauna" garden (I live in Houston, it was in the upper 70's and it rained--TODAY! Last week it got to 90ish! It's December!)

On the other hand, ask me how many Polyanthas and Chinas I've killed...on second thought, let's not talk about it.

We have 4 seasons here: sunny and wet spring, sunny and hot summer, gloomy and wet fall, and cold winter. My husband set the blade to cut grass higher, so that the grass is taller in spring and summer to shield the roots from drying out. My neighbor butchered his grass really short, and it looks really bad scorched at above 90's.

In our less sun fall, he lowers the blade, so the grass is cut shorter to allow more sun to penetrate, so we would have less mushroom growing on the lawn in our damp fall.