I can't tell you about how long it takes to grow because the tiny band I got didn't make it through winter here. But I can tell you that the blooms did not fade for me at all. I really loved it will be replacing mine this spring.

Karen, ALmD will build to a large climber, but how long will depend upon the available heat, drainage, culture, etc. Cooler climates slow her down. Heat speeds her up considerably. My own root plant in a two gallon can, which I rooted this past late winter/early spring, has about two feet of growth on it. I disbudded it the first few flushed but have allowed it to continue blooming. That slowed its growth, which is fine as I'm not ready to put it in the ground yet. Giving you a time line as to how long it will take, I can't do. There are too many variables.

The plant you see on HMF in the photo section on her page is seven or eight years old by now. Once she puts out the roots and a good framework of wood, she grows quickly. I cut three feet and more off it several times a year to reduce the "sail" due to the wind in Valencia where this plant grows. I try to reduce the chances of it blowing off the wall by reducing the wind resistance and I frequently have to cut it back to maintain enough room around it for the owners to play with their Goldens in the backyard.

You can see how the flowers perform in heat from those shots. It is frequently in the high eighties to triple digits in the summer shots in the album. They do lighten a bit, but never fading to pastel or going white.

You honestly will speed up her development by growing her in a larger pot until there is height, and pushing her by disbudding to encourage it. It isn't a "must", but definitely speeds up the process. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie Laurie McDowell

I got my Annie Laurie McDowell as a small band from Burling of Burlington Roses, I think 2 1/2 years ago. I left it in a pot until it got to be what I consider "plantable" size then it went in the garden. I didn't remember about the advice of HMF and let her bloom. They were beautiful and very fragrant. Unfortunately, the plant stayed rather small.

After getting the advice to disbud, ALM began to put on some longer canes and is now about 3 feet tall. If I had to do it all over, I would leave it in the pot for longer and remove all the buds (except for one--I always need that to get a vision of what is to come). So to answer your question, "yes, I'd strongly recommend pinching off the buds until ALM gets some size". I didn't and wish I had.

I would not hesitate to recommend this rose. It has been VERY healty--particularly with black spot resistance. Here EVERYTHING gets at least some BS--even knockouts, but ALM seems to shrug it off with hardly a spot.

I'm really looking forward to having her put on size next year when I remove more of the buds.

I'm hoping to get ALMcD from Bierkreek this fall/winter. I'm not sure but I am under the impression that their roses are grafted, not own-root (I could be wrong, however). Now, my question is: if my ALMcD does turn out to be a grafted bare-root rose, would you all still recommend me growing it on in a pot for the first year or so? I am under the impression (again, correct me if I'm wrong) that "roseseek" is actually Kim Rupert, the breeder of this rose! So any comments would be more than welcome! regards, bart

Thanks for the information and advice on growing ALM.
Karen

Hello Bart! Yes sir, it's me. Thank you for desiring Annie Laurie. The wonderful lady for whom it is named would have thought that delicious. (I love it, too, thanks!) Yes, Hans buds his plants. The growing season there is short and cool enough to require budding rather than own root. Our hotter, longer Southern California climates are much more beneficial for own root production without requiring expensive artificial heat. Think Mediterranean to South African and you know what I am describing.

Even budded, in cooler, shorter climates any rose will benefit from the extra warmth of a nursery can or other plastic pot. It keeps the soil warmer, stimulating more organic bacterial action, releasing more nutrients into the root zone. Warmer sap pushes more growth, faster, producing a faster maturing plant. You've seen it many times with the other plant types you've grown in pots. I don't know where you are as that information isn't included on your page here, but if it's convenient for you, I would think you could produce a much more developed plant in a significantly shorter period by growing her in a five gallon pot until you think she's ready for planting.

I've long started all of my bare roots in cans until there is a well established root system filling the soil ball. They get there faster and have enough momentum to take off once released to the soil. You don't HAVE to, but I do think it will result in a more mature plant in a much shorter time.

Not letting her flower until she's put on the climbing growth will help greatly, too. If you've grown Rosarium Uetersen, you've already experienced what I've described. That glorious climber will sit, flowering like a dwarf floribunda, for the longest time if not encouraged to climb by not letting it flower.

The large plant pictured on Help Me Find from Valencia, California, put out actual yard long (nearly a meter) flower sprays this summer. Like her mama, she likes flowering on downward hanging wood, so even on a wall, trellis or arch, she hangs the flowers down toward your face for you to enjoy. One of her greatest landscaping charms is the ability to dead head her with a hose. Being virtually seed sterile, the spent flowers will dry and fall off at the point of abscission, where the peduncle joins to the flowering cane. You can shake the whole dried flower off easily (and, being thornless, she won't bite!) or wash her off with a stream of water to blast them off the plant. Because the block wall that plant is on can be rather hot and dry, I frequently blast out all the climbers in that garden with a strong stream of water to dislodge the spent foliage, blooms, spider webs and other debris. They're all clean and healthy and with the drainage there, they appreciate the extra water, both to the plant parts and roots. It makes grooming a lot easier, too. Clean them up today, blast out the debris with the hose, then the lawn guy appears the next day to clean up all the fallen debris with the mower.

I hope you are as happy with Annie Laurie McDowell as she will be with you. I LOVE this rose! Thank you. Kim

Well, darn, Kim.
I put Annie Laurie McD in the ground yesterday (or maybe the day before) and now this thread is making me think I should have kept her potted for another season....

I know that many rosarians plant bands on into bigger pots, but I've always planted mine straight in the ground and then put a thorny barrier around them to ward off rodents. In my warm climate this works well, but I've found that pinching off the buds definitely seems to aid in their growth and development. It's a small price to pay for having bigger plants sooner.

Ingrid

Kim, this is a lovely plant indeed.

Rosefolly

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie Laurie McDowell

Thank you. I let my sister groom that one because she's such a pleasure, well, both of them, and the rose doesn't bite. It will shed the old foliage if it doesn't get enough light, which is normal, but they do it without getting sick and fall off with a gentle shake or the hose. The rose is just so EASY to handle, just give her the minimum she wants then stand back and let her please you. Kim

Thank you for your response, Kim (and by the way, I'm a "ma'am", not a "sir",my Internet nickname could be deceptive...)I've been wanting to try your roses for years, and ALMcD in particular; from the photos on HMF, it just looks like the flowers have such a beautiful colour, that lavender-y pink...also happy to hear that the colour doesn't totally "white-out" in sun and heat! I live and garden in Tuscany, Italy,in the foothills of the Appenine mountains. The summers are very hot and dry. I don't grow Rosarium Uetersen,but I do have experience with climbers that won't climb,though in my case I think it tends to be due to overly poor soil (hopefully this will soon be a problem of the past,now that I've started in using alfalfa meal instead of chemical fertilizer). I gather from the pictures and your comments that ALMcD is a pretty flexible climber;am I correct in thinking that the habit of this climber is fairly"soft"and trainable, rather than the stiff, rigid sort of habit of some other climbers?
As for growing it on in a pot, well, I guess I'll have to see the size of the plant, etc, and give it some thought in the mean time. Fact is, my garden is far from my home (30-40 minute drive). Because of this, and the scarcity of rain (my garden has to rely on rainfall for irrigation basically)I can't leave potted plants out there, I have to keep them here at the house, and here there is almost no sun during the summer, due to the large shade trees in the little piazza in which our home is located. So potted roses don't get much light during the summer at all,unless they are very tiny plants that I can stick up on the roof!So,I'm not sure that in such circumstances a rose is better off starting out in a pot. I do it with the own-roots I get from Becky Hook, but they are small enough to fit through the tiny port-hole window to put on the roof. I doubt a grafted rose would be so! I do sometimes grow a grafted bare-root in a pot for it's first spring/ summer, if I don't have time to get it planted out before it gets too hot. The roses that I've treated thusly usually look pretty bad by September (not enough light)but bounce back once I get them planted out. In the case of Zephirine Drouhin, the plant that I treated this way grew like a total maniac once planted out, but this is the only one that gives me the impression of having REALLY done better with a first-season-in-the-pot treatment.
I'm so looking forward to getting this rose, and am very pleased to "meet" you, Kim! regards, bart

Hi Bart, nice meeting you, too! Thanks. We should trade names. For many years, I've received mail addressed to "Miss Kim". Nope, it fools many, it seems.

Annie Laurie McDowell isn't "limp" like some of the thinner wooded Wichurana ramblers, but she's also not as rebar-like as something like Antique 89. She has strong canes which do admirable jobs of supporting her flowers and growth, but she can easily be encouraged to grow in the direction you desire. I hope that makes sense. She'll shoot out the flowering growth in all directions and these can be tied where you want them, otherwise, she'll drape them where she wishes and dare you to deny yourself her beauty. Here, that occurs year round without a break. We don't get severe freezes and every plant I have personal time with gets regular irrigation.

I wouldn't try her on a small trellis as she wants to be much larger than that, as evidenced by the photos I've shared on HMF. That wall is only about five feet tall and there is frequently a lot of her flowering wood over in the neighbor's yard. He loves it. He gets to enjoy her without any care or blood loss. He isn't a "rose person" but loves this one because she is so generous and demands nothing from him. As he's on the south side of that wall, he gets quite a show pretty much all the time. Even her petal dandruff is pleasurable.

It hasn't been difficult encouraging her to spread along that wall. If anything, it is heart breaking to have to prevent her from helping herself to even more of it. Originally, there was a Mme. Alfred Carriere to her right, but the neighbor's tree kept it too shaded and the plant was just much too large for the size of the wall. She's gone to her reward now and a different kind of vine is now in that spot. The tree has been removed so I let ALmD to fill in as much as she desires. I simply reduce her when necessary to keep the wind from pulling her from the wall and allow the homeowner enough room to sit in her shade, enjoying his cigars and playing with the dogs. He loves it because she provides him cool shade on sunny afternoons, smells good, doesn't bit him or the dogs and makes "his girl" of 43+ years, happy. Unless you're going to try growing her in too restricted a space, you shouldn't have much difficulty in encouraging her where you want her to be. Even if she requires more "convincing" than you'd hoped, she won't bite you, and that is truly a wonderful thing! Kim

This looks like a gorgeous rose! I have been tempted by ALmD since Paul Zimmerman mentioned her as a good almost-thornless climber for by a front door. One question - I grow (and love) Renee, which I understand is a parent of Annie. Could anybody compare the color of the flowers of Renee and Annie? Any other comparisons of behavior, habit, etc would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

Kim, is ALMcD strong enough of cane to grow without a support? A lot of climbers that I have grown (Captain Thomas, Spectacular for example) have canes which are not very flexible. They are called climbers but grow just fine and build just fine without support. Will ALMcD be that sort or will she really want/need something to hold her upright and to tie her laterals to? She's against a low (30")fence between Buff Beauty and Souv de Pierre Notting but it would be easy enough to add a length of wire fencing behind/above if she needs it.

Hi Susan! I've never found Annie to be stiff enough to grow without support. Those which can be, are called climbers because their canes are too long to be considered "shrubs". Altissimo and Sally Holmes are two more which can be grown without support here. Annie appreciates support. The photos I put on HMF are of her on a five foot wall and she regularly grows over that height. I would think you should add several feet to your 30" fence so you can enjoy all of her and not have to either hack her off or keep erecting supports as she outgrows it.

Got it. She still has a ways to go before she will need it, but I will plan on putting some wire behind her. And you are spot on about both Sally and Altissimo. They haven't needed any support here either. Sally got whacked to a nub when we did the septic/leach field renewal a few weeks ago. I'm going to be interested to see how she recovers. So far thrashing to ground level has never seemed to do anything but improve any rose I have done it to, so hopefully she will follow along with all the others. I do love her (probably most for those baby-bottom pink buds she sports).

Susan

That's how I grew both at the old garden, Susan. Sally was regularly pruned to about three to four feet and she would ignore me, throwing herself to six or seven feet, crowned with enormous heads of your "baby bottom pink" buds with pale lemon all fading to milk white, like an enormous Hydrangea planted over a septic tank. That rose was HAPPY! One of the most wonderful arrangements I've ever enjoyed was a huge bouquet of Sally created for a baby shower. They had to use a punch bowel for the stems, they were so large. Altissimo grew like a stiff, old, single HT and looked quite nice with Sally to its right, Vesuvius in front, with Nearly Wild and Jeepers Creepers planted in front behind the river boulders which held the horse manure mulch in place around them.

Many stiffer "climbers" can be grown this way. I think that's what has created such confusion about Sally Holmes over the years. Own root, she's stiff enough to be grown free standing, but with support, she'll cover a patio cover. Kim

Good to know.
My Sally got pruned to nothing but the stump.
But that's what I did to Iceberg last year and she looked better this year than she had looked in 15 years or so....

I just wish I could fast forward to spring already....

Hi Kim, thanks for your wonderful and very detailed answer! I love the description of the color of Annie as "an old lady pink!" And I love the lavender tints and the English rose style. I also appreciate your description of the habit. I'm thinking, now that I have my wonderful new deer fencing, maybe I could let Annie wander along the inside of the fence. I AM running out of room, but it sounds like I'm going to have to make room for Annie.

One other question: do you know of any sources for Annie here in the US other than Burlington? It would be really great if someone here on the East Coast offered her! I'd be happy to order from Burlington, but the shipping costs from CA are really starting to get bad for me, and I already have an order with Vintage and will probably have to order from Greenmantle to replace my Cerise Bouquet, which sadly I lost to rotten RRD.

Thanks again so much!

best,

Frances

According to HelpMeFind, Annie Laurie McDowell is also available from Angel Gardens in Florida

Here is a link that might be useful: Buy Annie Laurie McD from

Thank you Frances, and you're welcome! I checked Angel Gardens' site and while they list ALmD, it's shown as being out of stock. You might contact Long Ago Roses as I sent her material last year. She may have some propagated for delivery. I've emailed her to alert her to this thread. Perhaps, she might chime in the let us know. Very nice lady and the photos of her garden I've seen were spectacular. Hopefully, that will be just the ticket you need to make growing Annie Laurie McDowell your pleasure for the new year! Thanks. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Long Ago Roses

I heard back from Long Ago Roses this morning. Due to weather and other things preventing them from being ready, Annie Laurie McDowell will probably be ready at the earliest fall of 2012. She does have a few plants of Lynnie and some seedlings I've sent for evaluation. The site will be updated as soon as computer issues are sorted out, so if its being out of date causes concern about the nursery still being there, don't worry. It's there and will be up and running once the holidays and other issues are sorted through. If you'd like to put in a reservation for anything, please contact them through the site. No payment is requested until the plant is ready to ship. As I said, nice plants, nice people. Kim

Hi Frances! This is a good thread. Kim, thank you so much for that truly thorough and excellent description of ALMcD. If all rose descriptions were that good, there'd be less baffled gardeners around probably.Sadly, I see from HMF that Renae isn't available here in Europe.
Now,may I pick your brain further? As a matter of fact, I've also ordered Grandmother's Hat from Bierkreek. Reading that you say it's colour is very similar to that of Annie gave me this idea. I have this long sort-of-trellis thing (it's just poles for now, but I plan to make it into a trellis-like climbing rose support,if that makes any sense)in the middle of my large garden space.I was thinking:would it be possible to place ALMcD on one end and Grandma's Hat on the other, to unify the structure with two similar colours? I see on HMF that your personal preference for Granma's Hat is to grow it as a large shrub. But can it be grown as a climber? In other words, grown as a shrub it'll go up to 6feet or so, but as a climber can go up to almost 4 meters... Any info you can give on Grandma's Hat would be much appreciated! By the way, my real name is Eileen. But I continue to use my Internet name, i sort of like the cloak-and-dagger feeling of having an "A.K.A." cheers, bart

Not Kim, but I just wanted to mention that Grandmother's Hat will easily grow to 8 feet here in my garden, more like a big hybrid perpetual than a climber. I guess you could train it that way but it would be a lot of work. I prune mine down to about 5 feet yearly but it quickly restores itself.

Rosefolly

Hello Eileen, thanks, nice to meet you! Whenever possible, I try to be as thorough as I can, probably too much so, but you can't make informed choices if you don't have the information. The times I've been able to mine high levels of information about a rose (or anything else) before making my choice, I've enjoyed it much more.

Grandmother's Hat shares so many very similar textures and colors with Annie Laurie McDowell, I think your idea would be beautiful. It is obvious they are two different roses, but when you get up close and personal with them, you can see so many similarities in new growth texture and color, flower color, petal texture, occasionally similar flower shape, scent type, that one "completes" the other. I am certain they share similar basic parents, but who knows what those might be? Grandmother's Hat is a "found" rose which defies identification, which is why I provided Bierkreek with material to be grown and studied in Europe. It's been impossible here to put a name to her. Perhaps, someone there can compare her to your wonderful rose collections and finally make the identification? Hans also has all of her permutations we have found, Larry Daniels, Tina Marie, Striped Grandmother's Hat, as it is quite possible Grandmother is a sport and one of her "sports" is actually the reversion. The nurseryman who promoted her the most and discovered Tina Marie and Larry Daniels stated his crop traditionally mutated from Grandmother to Larry roughly 30% of the time which should mean the shift to Larry should be a reversion to or toward the original form. Hans also has several other found roses from here in California I included, hoping someone over there might identify them. Thanks belong to Jeri Jennings for allowing me to collect the material from her lovely garden.

There has long been an article about the similarities between Grandmother and Annie mulling over in my head which hasn't fully worked itself out yet. If you grow these two and Gloire des Rosomanes, you will find all three possess strong nearly familial resemblances. It makes perfect sense with Annie and Gloire if you believe the originally stated parentage behind Renae instead of the much later "correction", Mr. Moore suggested nearly five decades after Renae was introduced. Initially, it was stated that the pollen parent was a rose he created called Sierra Snowstorm, which resulted from Gloire des Rosomanes crossed with Dorothy Perkins. Closely studying Annie and Gloire des Rosomanes will show you many shared plant characteristics, which I feel demonstrate either that Annie is a descendant, or they share very close common ancestors.

Grandmother's Hat resembles Gloire des Rosomanes in many plant characteristics such as texture of new growth, petal substance, fragrance, plant colors and scent of its growth parts. Both have very nicely scented sepals, peduncles and new growth tips and both can easily be supported to create climbing effects. If you would enjoy a very interesting, enjoyable study, plant all three close to each other so you may study them and delight in their wonderful similarities. Not that they are interchangeable in any way, but they are obviously related. I just haven't figured out the connection other than the one between Gloire des Rosomanes and Annie Laurie McDowell.

My Grandmother's Hat grows next to a six foot vinyl fence and is partially supported by a huge, very happy Kona hibiscus which helps keep her more upright as she grows tall, sharing the flowers with the neighbor over the fence. It doesn't really shade her, so her height isn't elongated as she reaches for light. She'll flower on three to four foot canes, then produce new growth just below the flowers, shooting up another two to four feet before breaking into another cluster of blooms. With support, this is repeated several times, permitting her to be trained as a climber. If her canes are taken off the vertical, equalizing the sap pressure along the cane, she will begin breaking into laterals and producing flowers along the cane like a traditional climber is expected to. With decent soil and climate, Grandmother doesn't need budding, she will grow perfectly own root and roots quite easily.

In my climate, Grandmother's Hat very seldom forms hips, the flowers and peduncles drying and shriveling instead. This fall I have found six hips on her and collected a few seeds to plant to see what germinates, so dead heading is not necessary for her to continue flowering. The small, dried, spent flowers will require removal if that bothers you, but it isn't really that noticeable with her luxurious foliage mass. I'd think if you can make sure many of both Annie's and Grandmother's canes were grown low enough for you to be able to bury your face in to enjoy their scents, you'd enjoy them much more. It would definitely be a shame to only have them above your head where you can't easily see and smell them. Please be sure to fondle Grandmother frequently so she will scent your hands with her sweet, peppery cedar scent. On warm, moist days, both the flower and plant fragrances are very noticeable in the air close to the plant. She has few prickles, Annie has never had any in my experience, so personal contact with her doesn't usually result in injury, but it does enhance her "experience".

Annie will definitely provide more shade with her greater growth and foliage mass than Grandmother will and both can easily be expected to flower year round in my climate. One of these days, I will have a situation where I can plant all of the various Grandmother's Hat permutations, Gloire des Rosomanes and Annie Laurie McDowell close to each other to make their study and enjoyment much easier. That would be a wonderfully pleasing grouping! I hope that helps.

If you have room for a largish, probably once flowering, intensely fragrant rose, try Nessie. She's only available commercially there in Italy from Le Rose di Piedimonte and is shown on their site as currently available. Ironic that I had to search for her here after moving my garden, yet she's readily commercially available to you. Also, that even after contacting them requesting they correct the spelling of my name, it remains misspelled. I raised her from seed of Montecito, which has been disputed as possibly being Brunonii, and I am fairly certain the pollen was from Mlle. Cecile Brunner as that is what I used most heavily on it and the plant highly resembles what I would expect from the cross. Translated from their site, this is their description.

"Slightly hazy pale pink semi-double flowers of apricot of medium size and long yellow stamens in evidence. Intense and spicy, elegant dark green foliage, semi-gloss. So called from his breeder in memory of the "monster" in Loch Ness, because of exuberantly throwing its branches arching out of the plots of cultivation, growing rapidly up to 3 meters. It has a good re-flowering. Numerous and large orange berries." She never repeated for me in the mid desert, but seems to have the ability in a milder one. Now she's returned home to me, I might experience that here, I hope. She's also been rudely healthy in my experience and her fragrance impresses itself on your memory as Annie's and Grandmother's do. I hope you can find room for her in your garden and will report back with lots of "baby pictures" and your impressions. Thank you! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Nessie

Thank you very much, Kim,and also Rosefolly for your contribution. I think I get the idea about Grandma's Hat:it's one of those that can become climber-like with support (I'm trying to grow Falstaff that way, on a rebar tripod).The place I had in mind would provide it with a post up which I could train it,and it's on a garden path, so the lack of thorns would be a plus.Because of said path, I couldn't let it fountain out in all directions to form laterals,which isn't good, but it would have SOME space for fountaining-out.The place I had in mind for Annie would allow more space for horizontal training. This is also on a path; the idea would be to have these two rose flanking the long trellis-thing,similar in enough ways to create unity, but different enough to provide interest. So at this point, another question:of the two roses in question, ALMcD and Grandmother's Hat, which one would benefit more by having the extra space that would permit more branches to be trained horizontally?
The perfume of these roses will be a plus on the paths, I think; one will be able to enjoy it every time one passes!
Oddly enough, I was thinking of getting Gloire des Rosomanes this year, too, and it remains on my wish list for the future...cheers, bart

Sounds beautiful Eileen. Annie is a significantly larger plant than Grandmother, so the space where there is more room to train her is likely better for Annie. If you can squeeze them in, so add Gloire and the sports (or reversions?) of Grandmother. You will love them all. Kim

And when you get it going, do please post pictures so we can share it.