Hi guys! :o)
Ok, the wish list is ready. Now, I need your help to choose the best varieties.
The preference is for dense, well shaped bushes, healthy and full of foliage. I also need to have a number of different growing habits (some more vertical, others more rounded, or even spreading...)It's very important that flowers are heat resistant and don't burn under the sun.

I ask you to help me to cut down the list, wich is at the moment very very long... 60 roses!! I think I can plant maybe no more than 30 plants.

The list!(I have left out the varieties that I know first hand)

CLIMBERS:
Ley's Perpetual
La Biche
Emmanuella de Mouchy
Triomphe de la Guillotière (I have this rare Rose since few weeks, it's a friend's present)
Garisenda

SHRUBS (Giganteas and Bermudas)
Susan Louise (coming soon....)
Emmie Gray
Bermuda's Anna Olivier
Bermuda's Kathleen
Miss Attwood

TEAS:
Mme Bravy
William R. Smith
Souvenir de Pierre Notting
La Sylphide
Mme Camille
Bryan Friedal's Pink Tea
Triomphe du Luxembourg
Anna Jung
Catherine Mermet
Bridesmaid - "The Hughes"
Mme Scipion Cochet
Lady Plymouth

CHINA:
Duke of York
Jean Bach Sisley
Unermudliche
Alice Hoffmann
Lady Roberts
Charleston Graveyard
Princesse de Sagan

and, dreaming to have it one day, 'Mateo's Silk Butterflies'(unavailable in Europe at the moment)

Your preferences, suggestions... anything, is very welcome and helpful!

Grazie mille!
Maurizio

I have only Catherine Mermet of your list. It is a very beautiful rose. I keep saying that I cannot smell teas. Well, it is not true in case of Catherine Mermet; I love her fragrance. Also, I love the very beautiful very light pink color - rather creamy dreamlike blooms. The plant is tall but mine wasn't very wide, unusual feature with teas; however, my plant was not on a good rootstock and when started declining we dug up and potted up the plant. I took cuttings and they rooted, so I hope I have at least one that was not killed by the drought or spider mites.

Catherine Mermet definitely has my vote.

Oh, I checked your list again and just noticed other two I have: Madame Bravy and William R. Smith. Mme Bravy is still small (I got it as a rooted cutting from a friend) and I hope it stays small - I was assured it would be small although that is almost an oxymoron in case of teas but one can always hope:-)- it already bloomed pretty well. I like it so far very much.

I ordered William R. Smith in the hope that it would also stay small but friends swear it will grow to at least 6 feet (about 2 meters)tall and will also be wide. Mine is an own root baby, so I had no problem with it so far but if it gets so big, I have no idea where I could find place for this rose.

I planted LaBiche this year and grow it as a freestanding shrub. It is actually a mis-named tea. I think it is really Mlle. Sombrueille (I know I have not spelled this correctly). Absolutely beautiful. You MUST grow it.

I received an Emmie Gray by accident (she was supposed to be Spice). I planted her anyway. She is an upright grower so far, and I am finding her quite charming. She is a single, and her blooms change through shades of pink until she is a hot pinkish red. She adds a nice splash of color to the garden. This is one I didn't think I would like, and am pleasantly surprised at how much I like her simplicity.

I used to have Bermuda Anna Olivier. She is a "smaller" tea and has a rounded growth habit. Very good bloomer and the flowers are lovely pale yellow. However, thrips like her. Ruined yellow blooms that turn brown aren't very pretty. Sometimes I think of trying her again - maybe in a pot.

I have Aunt Belle's Tea, a found rose that Roses Unlimited said might possibly be Jean Bach Sisley. However, they did say there are some slight differences between the two. Mine is absolutely beautiful and blooms all the time, whatever it may be.

None of these need spray with chemicals.

Sandy

Tsk. Tsk. No Noisettes? Especially since they have few thorns.

Ceterum, if 'Catherine Mermet' is less wide than average Tea, it's an advantage for me, 'cause this help in varying shapes to add interest to the composition. I use to put togheter more rounded or large&low bushes (i.e. 'Dr. Grill', 'Le Vésuve') with more "vertical", sometimes "columnar" one. So any Rose has this character is good for me.
I've also read about 'Mme Bravy' that she get small. Hope it's real! I've many little Chinas on my list to put them in the foreground of the border.
Teas get large here, as in California, but they are manageables creatures IF they are dense growers. There is a great difference between a Tea like 'Général Schablikine' and like 'Baronne Henriette de Snoy': both grows very large, but you can easily prune the Général to a more little shape, than you can do with the Baronne.
I would really like to write something about my experience pruning Teas in the related thread in this forum, but english takes me so much time.... :o/ (and is always full of mistakes...)

Sandy, do you have any picture of Emmie Gray? Especially of the whole bush... Sounds like it's a really nice Rose. I'm surprised you say Bermuda's Anna Olivier is small. I was convinced that it's a big bush.
'La Biche' ('Mlle the Sombreuil') looks really attractive, but I fear it gets too large as a shrub. The only nursery in Italy that sell it, say it's a climber, 5 m high (17').

Thank you both for informations!

Lynnette, apologies for having left ou the beloved Noisettes! I don't have the space here for such large Roses like them, and I prefer to devote this part of the garden to Teas, Chinas and Giganteas (I have a 'Follette' and a 'Susan Louise' in a pot, and a cutting of 'Emmanuella de Mouchy'...). But in the "climber" part of the complete list, you can read also "Céline Forestier" (which I love totally), and 'Rève d'Or', which both are very best favorites ;o)

Ciao!
Maurizio

Maurizio, don't worry about making mistakes. English is my first (and only language) and I make plenty of mistakes :)

Sombreuil sold as a climber is probably Colonial White. And it does get very large. I'm growing it as a climber and it's already up to 9 feet after 2 years. And very thorny. I have it on an arbor, with Reve d'Or on the otherside. Reve is a slower fuller climber with very clean foliage that still hasn't been affected by the cold here.

One tea I have that I love is Marie d' Orleans. I don't think it gets that big. It has cerise flowers that have an unusual shape. If you have a chance, check it out.

Thank you for supporting me, Buford, but I see that I make mistakes also in french, which is supposed I'm able to speak :o/... 'Mlle DE Sombreuil'/'La Biche' I've described before is not the Sombreuil/Colonial White Wichurana climber, but a recently re-introduced old variety. But now I think that maybe the catalog description refers to the second one (what a world full of mistakes.. LOL...). But I'm sure they have 'La Biche', as also in Sandy's reply.

Maurizio, I am curious, how big Celine Forestier is for you? Considering that it is a Noisette climber, it is quite restrained here compared to Crepuscule, Jaune Desprez or Marechal Niel. Lucky you, you probably have no blackspot in your dry climate while here Celine gets spots and looks best when I spray.

We grow Susan Louise in the Sacramento cemetery - it is a small tree - I've heard others talk about its growth habit, and they all seem to experience the same tall, somewhat awkward growth, with large bare canes at the bottom and a tendency to be lopsided. The flowers are fabulous, with that "wad of tissue" gigantea look when the flowers fade. It reblooms very well, and has fabulous long, pointed buds. We spray nothing, and it has had no disease problems. I've always thought that I'd like to start over with this rose, and grow it at the back of a border. It could be espaliered, I believe, or simply trained by careful pruning. If I had room for it at home, it would definitely be near the top of my list.

We have Garisenda, too. We simply grow it in a large heap! It's typically wichuriana, with flexible canes. The flowers are rather large for its type, and very pretty, showing its Souvenir de la Malmaison parentage. It blooms once.

Catherine Mermet is lovely, and grows just as Ceterum describes. I've always thought it was more like an early Hybrid Tea than a Tea.

Anita

Hi Maurizio,

William R. Smith is a wonderful rose. Very big blooms that are held more upright than most Tea's. Mine is a very large bush, It routinely reaches a height of greater than 8 feet and is 5-6 ft wide. It does tolerate pruning very well.

Souv. de Pierre Notting is one of my favorite Tea's and it has never gotten very large here. It has been in the ground for approximately 5 years and is 5 ft tall and 3 ft wide.

The rose I bought from Vintage as Duke of York is a climber. Beautiful but big. I placed it on an obelisk because the description said it would have a few longer canes, good for an arbor. Mine swallowed the obelisk in two years. Beautiful and abundant blooms and clean foliage.

Your concept of a rose walk sounds lovely and after seeing photo's of the rest of your garden, I am sure that it will be.

Carol

Your climate is too different from mine to offer rose suggestions since I can't grow teas and chinas here, but I love the idea of using the bushy roses (here gallica, polyantha, and portland roses would fit the bill...) with the occasional veritical accent and lots of interplanted herbs and perennials. I can imagine using lavenders, rosemary, creeping thyme, and sage/salvias as some of the companion planting.

You mentioned that you'd like to post about your experience pruning teas, but that it was hard to do so without making mistakes in English. We are much more interested in what you have to say than how you say it, so please, if you find the time, start the thread, without worrying so much about whether everything is absolutely correct.

When I first started reading your posts, I found it hard to believe that you were apologizing for your English. You do great!
Anita

I too love the Catherine Mermet which grows ever so slowly and saves its life by shooting out two more ungodly beautiful blooms. R'eve d'Or is one who is now small but fervantly promises to grow large.Narrow Water is a noisette who can take pruning, heat and adjust to whatever space you give her. Good luck on your project. I love it every time a new rose garden lifts her head in this world. Brava!
la

Hi guys, a big "thank you!" to all of you :o)

I was thinking how to design my "walk", but yesterday I've noticed that unfortunately, I have much less space than supposed. The area is 17 meters long, and begins 3 m large, but ten it tightens to only 2 meters :o(... That's not a strip, it's a tape!! :o/
However, I will find a solution!

My intention is to left a very narrow bed to the right,average 50 cm wide, in which to plant small canary lavenders (Lavandula x christiana, L. buchii, L. pinnata...), spurges (Euphorbia pithyusa, E. wulfenii 'Lambrook Gold'), and large drifts of Amaryllis belladonna and Nerine undulata for autumn flowering.
Then a (narrow :oP) path, 80 cm wide, covered with olive leaves mulch,and to the left, the large (!!) bed for the Roses, as wide as it's possible. Among the Roses, some Vitex trifolia 'Atropurpurea' (Arabian Lilac), and drought resistant perennials.

Ceterum, as you say, 'Céline Forestier' is much different in growth from the others yellow Tea-Noisettes . Is much more shorter and bushy. I have one (in a poor sandy corner, I must admit), 8 years old and only 3 meters high. She's jumped on a pergola, so I'm nearly unable to see her flowers. I want to plant another one closer to my eyes!

Anita, I can't wait to see 'Susan Louise' to become a tree!! I have 'Belle Portugaise' climbing with Cramoisi Supérieur on a Olive Tree, and I really like to have her daughter in my garden. Thank you also for Garisenda ;o)
(I apologize about my english, because I'm very slow to write, and often I make mistakes...only my spoken english can be worst!! LOL! ... I'm a precise guy...) But I will try to write about pruning Teas, I promise you ;o)

Carol, you've convinced me, I'm going to ask Peter Beales for both William R. Smith and SDPN!
I've read that the 'Duke of York' you have in USA in sometimes mislabeled, being in reality 'Papillon'. Does anyone have any other information about that?

I've been assuming that the "walk" is to allow passage through the 17 x 2-3 m area. Could a path begin at the 3 m end and stop before the 2 m end? You could put a large rose at the 2 m end (which would block any passage). You could put a bench at the end as a place to go to admire the roses and vines. If it's usually too hot there, you could put an arch or pergola over the bench and grow a rose on it. If you make the path meander a little, you could hide the bench with other roses/plantings in front. Then you would have a sort of secret destination.

Another idea is to put the smaller roses in the front and taller and taller roses toward the back. Then bits of every bush might be seen from the front -- so many colors!

Not having seen your location, I don't know how much of a challenge the area is. There are all sorts of ways to imagine the area. It should be fun coming up with solutions!

- Mike

Maurizio, I know that at some point there was a discussion about Vintage's Duke of York possibly being Papillon. I don't know if they have determined with certainty that it is Papillon. Maybe Cass knows? I need to email Gregg and ask him. You will love William R. Smith and Souv. de Pierre Notting.

Carol

Hi Mike,
thanks for your suggestions :o), you're reading my mind?? :o)))
It was exactely in my intentions to block the passage at the far, narrow end of the "walk", and to put here a focal point , probably a big terracotta pot (like a tuscan jar), with giant cardoons at the back (I love the cardoons foliage with the Roses). Since the path is narrow, I need to allow the passage from the "rose walk" to another "room" of the garden, and avoid a "cul de sac" (blind alley?) effect, and link the overall garden tour. You reach this Rose walk, going under the pergola (work in progress...) at the back of the water pools garden in front of the house(I've asked for a Rose to put on this pergola in another thread). Then you turn right, and walk through roses and grapevines for 15 meters...
At the end of the path, I can build a few steps to the right, to go up in the kitchen garden, and from here, again in the formal pond garden near the house (it's a sort of circular tour).

I don't know if I made myself clear... :op
Maybe a plan of the garden will be helpful...

Ciao!
Maurizio

Hi, Maurizio! It is so good to know that the project of beautifying your island goes on :-)

I bought the Duke of York from Vintage three years ago. I believe it really is Papillon. It is one of my healthiest roses, but not large here in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is a quite small climber in my garden. It's sweet, multi-colored blooms change from season to season, which makes its charms even more delectible.

The narrow end of your Rose Walk would be the ideal spot for Celine, billowing forth from the huge terracotta pot. I can "see" her there now, in fact :-)

My Emmie Gray is an upright shrub who blooms fairly little but who keeps her leaves year-round better than most of my chinas. She'd be a good choice for lining the narrow parts of the path.

I didn't care much for my Princesse de Sagan (ARE) from Vintage. She is one of the few who have been summarily dismissed from my garden, unfortunately. My Miss Atwood from Vintage turned from a ball of glorious apricot blooms into a pink powder puff of powdery mildew in a matters of days last year and died. That was a real heart-breaker...

Bermuda's Kathleen in my garden is a vigorous climber that is, with some modest attention, fairly easy to train along a five foot fence this year. I hesitate to imagine how large she is likely to get, but I would guess that left to her own devices, she could become immense.

Like the rest of here, I applaud your gardening skills and vision, and I wish you the very best with this latest endeavor :-)

Ciao!
~ Alexis

Hi Maurizio,

It sounds wonderful, the whole thing. It should be a wonderful splash of color among the vines in spring/summer. Have fun!

- Mike

Maurizio, Having seen photos of the rest of your garden I know what sort of gardener you are. This walk will be beautiful. Most of my beds are narrow because of the terracing so I know all too well your concern about the roses not covering the pathway. I didn't always get that right here which has caused me alot of work. Good Luck! I'll be waiting for photos.

I'm sure we are all anxious to see your beautiful additions. You have a great rose list going there.

Carla

Hi guys :o)
The work is in progress.... Whereas I can't start preparing beds and planting, I have bought almost all the roses (so now I have a very FULL pot ghetto eheh!). My thought is to observe the plants for a few months before to plant them, to avoid -as much as it's possible- mistakes (like clashing colours, flowers that crisp under the sun, etc).

That's the final list of the plants:

CLIMBERS:
Ley's Perpetual
Triomphe de la Guillotière
Céline Forestier
Souvenir de Mme Léonie Viennot
Monsieur Tillier (the supposed "real" one.... traines as a small climber)

SHRUBS (Giganteas, Bermudas, others)
Susan Louise
Emmie Gray
Bermuda's Anna Olivier
Miss Attwood
Alister Clark
Souvenir de la Malmaison bush

TEAS:
William R. Smith
Souvenir de Pierre Notting
Triomphe du Luxembourg
La Biche (Mlle de Sombreuil)
Lady Plymouth
Maman Cochet
Mme Joseph Schwartz
Duchesse de Brabant
Mme Berkeley
Mme Lambard
Ducher
Cels Multiflore
Souvenir di Castagneto (a Rose found in Italy)
Philippa Pirette (Walter Branchi's found rose)
Dr. Grill
Devoniensis (bush)

CHINA:
Duke of York
Jean Bach Sisley
Unermudliche
Hofgartner Kalb
Alice Hoffmann
Cécile Brunner
White Cécile Brunner
Jenny Wren (Cécile's hybrid)
Mme Laurette Messimy

What do you think? I would really appreciate your comments about my list.

.... news coming soon.... :o)

Maurizio

I think it sounds beautiful and I can't wait to see photo's when you have completed the project. I really look forward to seeing photo's of your "found" roses and several others that I am not familiar with. I've seen your work, I know it will be magnificent.

Carol

Maurizio, your list sounds really wonderful. You've chosen rather unusual, really interesting roses in colors and shapes that I think will look superb together. I hope you understand that you are absolutely required to post pictures at the first moment of bloom!

Ingrid

I do not know all of the roses on your list, but what I am familiar with is very beautiful. I love your gardens and can hardly wait to see photos of this new project.

Jerome

Thank you guys! :o) I'm really excited to begin...

Carol, this is a picture of 'Souvenir di Castagneto', a rose found in a nursery's garden in northern Italy. I have it from a friend, one year ago.
It's maybe one of the first HT, and for me is very similar to 'Captain Christy'. Upright, dense growth, to 1,5 - 2 meters average. Beautiful, very full and large flowers, with translucent petals of pale shell pink. The colour is a little darker in summer, and the blooms are perfect even under July and August's hottest sun of . Strongly scented.

{{gwi:327160}}

;o)
Maurizio

No suggestions to offer here, just a note to say it sounds like a wonderful project. Perhaps you'll post pictures when it is done for us all to see.

Rosefolly

I've had Jean Bach Sisley in the past and liked it, and it was a superb cut flower, and am growing it again in my present garden. Of the five teas I've grown on your list my favorites are Duchesse de Brabant and Mme. Joseph Schwartz. I'm so excited about your project, I almost feel as though it's my own! What a thrill it will be to see your pictures. Of course it will take several years for it to be in its full glory but seeing everything growing up in the meantime will be equally fun. I admire your energy in undertaking such a large project.

Best of luck with all of it.

Ingrid

Maurizio, thank you for that photo. Souvenir de Castagneto is a lovely rose!

Carol

Amazing! Beautiful.

I would love to see how it looks now.

Me too!

What a magical place!

I would as well.

Some of our newer members may not remember Maurizio, the OP. He has gone on to become a garden designer of distinction. No doubt anyone who looks at these pictures is not at all surprised.

If I ever came into an unexpected surplus, I would invite him to come to California and see what he could do to transform a garden I like into a garden I loved.

My jaw dropped open when I saw your photos, what lush beauty and so more to come in time... Lux. P.s. I love your choices in roses.