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| According to "official" websites, it is hardy in zone 8b, but I was wondering about its actual performance. BS is a real beast here March through November, and I'm not sure if it gets cold enough in the winters (typically, for about 8 weeks, it is in the 50-60's during the day, and upper 30's to lower 40's at night, but we can have 2 or 3 days in a row where it is a warmer 70's during the day and upper 40's at night) As an indicator, Pansies do fine October through April in my garden. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| No, but I sure wish someone would answer you. I tried it in mid-coast TX & couldn't keep it or Tuscany Superb alive more than a few seasons. Now, in a slightly cooler, much drier climate, I'd like to try gallicas, albas & centifolias & damasks again if they have a chance in heck here. |
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- Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Sat, Dec 22, 12 at 1:30
| I never tried to grow AR in the Florida Panhandle, but I grew up there and know the climate and I'm inclined to think that your chances of success are slim. My reasons for thinking this are that I've NEVER seen a single once-blooming old rose of European origin there, and it seems to be the accepted truth that temperate climate plants that require winter chill just don't grow in north Florida. No tulips, no cherries, no lilacs, and so forth. I was waiting for someone who had an answer based on actual experience (Malcolm Manners, where are you?) but since they haven't spoken up yet, I thought I'd offer my two cents' worth. Melissa P.S. There are all different kinds of Zone 8 climates. We live in one here, too, but, unlike Florida, we get weeks and weeks of temperatures that range between the high twenties and low forties, so that we can grow those plants that require winter chill. |
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- Posted by sherryocala 9A Florida (My Page) on Sat, Dec 22, 12 at 11:58
| Melissa, your postscript was very enlightening. I never thought of it in terms of the duration of the chill. Weeks and weeks are a whole lot different from 6 or 8 nights. Sherry |
Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...
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- Posted by malcolm_manners 9b C. Fla. (My Page) on Sat, Dec 22, 12 at 14:08
| I suspect Melissa is right. We grew Albas and a couple Gallicas here in Lakeland for several years. Grafted to 'Fortuniana', the plants grew well with no signs of decline. But most of them never flowered -- ever. After nearly 5 years, we removed them. Felicite Parmentier did flower well for us, as did Alba semiplena, so if you want old once-bloomers, you might try those. Of course they are not Gallicas and in no way resemble the Apothecary rose. One challenge with predicting whether roses will succeed is that in the genus Rosa, the concept of "chilling" seems to be profoundly different from peaches, apples, cherries, etc. In those fruit crops, they follow a very predictable, rather well-understood chain of events: 1. Short days and cooler temps promote leaf senescence With roses, the first part never happens -- even very northern roses don't lose their leaves here, so they never enter into a true dormancy in the sense that a deciduous plant would. And whereas a peach tree that didn't go properly dormant would eventually die, in the case of the rose, it remains healthy, but fails to flower. Vegetative growth seems to be more closely related to that of citrus, avocados, etc., which enter into a "rest" state that can be broken by longer days and warmer temperatures, independent of any chill requirement, yet the flowering behavior seems to be in some way related to true chill-unit acquisition. So, while some concept of chilling is surely involved here, I think it is not safe to make too many assumptions based on the "standard" model of chill-unit accumulation, e.g. as is used for peaches. And unfortunately, no one seems to have done much formal study of what these roses are actually doing, nor any method of predicting exactly where they will or will not flower well. That would be a good research project for someone to take on. I suppose one could do it informally -- maybe with gardeners on this forum -- collect data on varieties grown at many sites from south to north, and seeing which bloom reliably and which do not. But of course such data would be skewed by the fact that most of us don't grow roses that don't do well for us. It has been suggested to me that we should try more of the Hybrid Chinas, many of which bear strong resemblance to their Gallica ancestors, but with the China genetics, should be more forgiving of warm-winter areas. That makes some sense, yet as Melissa points out, one seems NEVER to see once-blooming types in the deepest South, and one has to wonder why. I've thought for many years that I'd like to have a big test bed of as many Hybrid Chinas as I could get, but I've never got around to dedicating the time, space, and effort to such a project. And of course, things that fail in Lakeland could still be successful for you up in the Panhandle, which is a good zone and a half colder. |
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- Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 2:38
| Oh, wow, Malcolm, what a wonderful informative article: thanks! Double thanks for your taking the trouble to share your knowledge. I've wondered about the Hybrid Chinas as well, since they have a reputation in California for being able to flower in warmer conditions than the pure Gallicas, while they resemble them in appearance. Of course, then there's Florida's mighty summer humidity and lack of cooler night temperatures, but the gardener never knows until s/he tries. I hadn't known until I read your explanation how dormancy works, or how different it is for roses than for other plants. My once-blooming roses of European origin defoliate cleanly, or such is my memory, but this year their behavior is a bit peculiar, and most of them are still leafed out. Either I've forgotten just when it is that they actually drop their leaves, or the extremely hot and dry summer this year was responsible: it fooled some plants into dormancy, and then they leafed out, and some flowered, when fall came. And we had a long, mild, springlike fall this year. I know that when the cold arrived in early December some recently leafed-out deciduous trees got their foliage frosted, rather than have it color and then drop normally. Sherry, I'm glad I lit a light for you! I love this subject. I've lived most of my life in three places with Zone 8 climate--north Florida, western Washington state, and Italy in the northern Apennines--and it has been illuminating how different their climates are. Average annual minimum temperature is only a small part of the story. In north Florida when I was growing up, a hard freeze might bring early morning temperatures in the teens, but by early afternoon the temperature would have risen up into the forties or higher. Here, our lows are no lower than in Florida, but after a freeze the temperature climbs into the thirties, and stays there. This is why we can grow both relatively tender plants like olives and Lady Banks roses, and cold climate lilacs and peonies. I have an impression that through much of the eastern and central U.S. temperature swings are more drastic than in western Europe: this means that chill hours are bought at the price of lower lows than Europe sees. There are many other considerations: How hot does it get in summer, and for how long a period? Does it cool down significantly at night? When it's hot, is it usually humid or dry? How about when it's cold? In Florida, summers are hot and humid, while cold is usually dry. As a result it rarely snows, fungal diseases abound in warm weather, in the summer temperatures don't change much from day to night (the moisture holds in the heat, I believe), while winter temperatures shoot up during the day after a hard freeze, because of the sun and low humidity. In addition, since in Florida warmth and moisture go together, plants grow like mad, while in Italy you have to irrigate to get rapid growth, otherwise plants are generally slow. In western Washington summers are dry but with little hot weather, winters are chilly, wet, but mild, so that snow is fairly rare but rain is abundant. Spring lasts a long, long time. Winter chill is adequate for plants like lilacs and once-flowering roses, but there's not enough summer heat to be able easily to grow Tea roses and other plants that require heat to ripen their growth. Where I lived in Washington I could grow acid-loving plants like rhododendrons and camellias, which also do fine in much of Florida, but which are impossible here with our compact, probably alkaline clay and summer drought. Here in Italy we have dry summer heat with lower temperatures at night and more or less humid winter chill, with a good deal of snow. As a result we can grow plants that need cold, like tulips and Gallicas and cherries, but also plants that can't take severe cold, like the olives. We can grow plants that need summer heat like Tea roses. Our plants need to be able to take weeks of summer drought. This drought with heat means that we have low fungal disease pressure, but means that we tend to do better with classic European, British, and western U.S. garden plants (roses, rosemary and lavender, clematis, peonies, honeysuckle, mahonia, box and yew), while plants native to the eastern U.S. are often unsuitable as they're adapted to grow with summer rain and moisture, and often acid soils; and the same is true for many plants of Japanese origin. There are many exceptions to these guidelines, but I've found them useful when selecting plants. Melissa |
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| Thank you all for the long & detailed responses. Merry Christmas :) |
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- Posted by sandandsun 9a FL (My Page) on Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 21:50
| Dr. Manners, What a wonderful Christmas present! It's such an excellent read that I must ask: will you write us a book? Maybe you'll consider that for us by next Christmas, or soon at least? Thank you. And to quote melissa_thefarm: "Double thanks" |
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| We found, when we tried to grow Gallicas, that they bloomed a little the first spring, less the second spring, then, no bloom, and then, they began to deteriorate. Our coastal climate is VERY mild, and any chill is rare. I hoped Hybrid China's might fare better -- but so far, that has not been so for us. Oranges and Avocados, however, do very well, as do Teas and China's, and the banksiaes bloom through most of the year. Jeri |
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| For a substitute for the 'Apothecary Rose', try the 'Portland Rose' (alias 'Portlandica'; but please don't call it 'Duchess of Portland'! No one called it that until the 20th Century). Here in coastal Southern California, it doesn't re-bloom (at least, it doesn't for me), but it does bloom dependably once a year with its big blossoms of a happy bright cerise. The leaves color nicely in the Fall. It's a modest and charming rose which somehow just has a more likeable personality than many of the more ambitious roses. |
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| I can second that. It bloomed well for us, too. -- tho probably not as generously as it did for odinthor. (His area is markedly warmer in summer, and has a little more winter chill.) Jeri |
This post was edited by jerijen on Sat, Dec 29, 12 at 10:08
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| Thank you all so much for the detailed replies! I'm going to research some of the rose suggestions people have made and determine a good one for my garden. Maybe in a few years I'll attempt an experimental AR, but I don't have room in my current garden, or time to spare, for an experiment. |
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| odenthor, how would you describe the fragrance of Portlandica? |
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| It has a moderate standard old rose scent, like what we enjoy in other Damask Perpetuals. I suspect that its scent is stronger where the air is more humid than it is here. |
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- Posted by jill_perry z9 CA (My Page) on Tue, Jan 1, 13 at 2:26
| In Santa Cruz, Apothecary rose grows a few canes a few inches high, and occasionally I will get a flower or two in the spring. It survives fine, but is pathetic. In San Jose it's hard to keep it alive, and is more like an annual. I expect in FL, it would be no better than in central CA. Jill |
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- Posted by malcolm_manners 9b C. Fla. (My Page) on Tue, Jan 1, 13 at 9:24
| We grew the Portland Rose for several years in Lakeland, and when it flowered, it was very nice. But it seldom flowered at all, and when it did, it was never more than a flower or two, so we eventually discarded it. As I recall it was also rather disease-prone here. Unfortunate, since it is indeed a beautiful thing. |
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