This is a great discussion topic for those of us who struggle with alkaline clay and water. We too learned the hard way that peat moss is the kiss of death here. We bought some Austins that were potted in a peat mix and had to wash off all the soil, taking them to bare roots, before replanting in a mix of compost and native soil where they could flourish. We also add sulphur and are going to try azomite (a mix of minerals) this year as well. And I'm going to try the trick of putting lemons in our watering cans to give an occasional acid drench to our plants. We also add mycorrhyzae (Austin recommends these as well), mulch heavily with coffee grinds, pine needles and any other acidy mulch we can get. I'd love to hear others' solutions.

Thanks for the response, lbuzzell. I posted this, and it didn't go through, so I re-posted again to everyone, rather than to Ingrid. Sorry for the double-posting.

Alfalfa meal is reported to glue up in two University Extensions both with young seedlings and marigolds, causing chlorosis (yellowing) due to roots being choked up. Someone else suggested Alfalfa Hay, sold cheap at the feedstore. Alfafa Hay has higher alfafa content, and coarser in texture so it won't glue up.

I notice that the sphagnum peat moss available at the store is "pH neutralized" and not the 4.5 pH that I used to see. How would using this neutralized peat work in limey soil? Does it stay neutralized or is it a coating or something that washes away? I just amended limey compacted sand with what I had on hand - this peat - for some liriopes that I moved. There is no clay in that area. My only concern at the time was that if peat dries out it is difficult to re-wet.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Fortunately in this respect at least I don't have clay soil but rather it's opposite, decomposed granite. The plants I fertilized with the Lilly Miller brand you mentioned are doing very well and I'm already seeing a slight shift in color in Sophie's Rose, but the Dark Lady has no blooms at the moment but large buds, so I should know soon. For me this acid fertilizer is working well.

Ingrid

Hi Ingrid: I'm glad that things go well with the acid fertilizer ... they are caustic to my skin, but I guess with plenty of water to dilute it, it would be OK for the earthworms. I no longer mix-in sulfur with the soil, I did 1 cup of Hollytone (with sulfur) in the hole and it killed all earthworms .. so did the 1 cup of slow-released sulfur. But previously-used Lily Miller acid-fertilizer on the surface was well-diluted with water. I checked that hole, there's earthworms deep at the bottom, so it's OK. I mixed clay with corkscrew willow leaves yesterday ... I'll wait until April to check if it's glued up, or fluffy, and how many earthworms.

Hi Sherry: You are right that peat moss is difficult to re-wet ... There are many choices to mix in to help water-retention: 1) alfalfa hay 2) potting soil with composted fine pine, such as MiracleGro Organic potting soil 3) Moisture-control garden soil 4) leaves

Leaves is the best choice for moisture retention. Since lime is so widely used in potting soils to deodorize and to suppress fungal growth, my guess is the "neutralized peat moss" is coated with lime. Even the big pile of dirt that I ordered had lime mixed in to kill weed seeds. It's tested at pH of 8, very alkaline. After much rain, I picked up a chunk of clay, and tested the inner part, it was only slightly alkaline.

I used bagged cow manure from Menards, it stank up really bad, and had tons of weed seeds. After 5 years, I still have to pull up weeds inherited from those bags. The "Moo-cow-manure" from Home Depot has zero weeds, zero smell, but its pH is higher than my own clay, due to the lime added to the bag.

Strawberry. I don't know if it makes a difference to the earthworms, but I use powdered sulfur not pellets since I read that the finer the form the faster it works. I would think another upside for the earthworms with the powder is that is doesn't just sit for an extended time dissolving. In my sand it's just passing downward. Last winter I dug up a rose that was suffering so that I could dig out her bed deeper and remove the crap that was underneath my amending. I found that previous amending only went to about 8" or 10" with only minor leaching downward in 3 years. I dug down to about 3-1/2 feet (looked like I was digging a grave.) I hit layers of that white clay about 4" deep, but mostly it was hard, compacted gray sand like mortar mix. Interestingly, I tested the pH at various levels and found that it was down in the mid 6's even in the native stuff. It's normally slightly above 7.0, so the sulfur I had used several months before had worked. The extra plus is that it didn't drop it too low. I have seen this chart showing at what pH ranges all the nutrients are available to the plants. It was a comfort to see that everything was available in my slightly alkaline soil which after amending but without added sulfur is in the high sixes. I thought the table might be useful to others who might have pH issues. Not knowing how deep rose roots go down, I broke up the bottom of the hole (6x4x3.5) and sprinkled a lot of sulfur on the bottom, several bags of pines fines, about 15 bags of topsoil, composted horse manure, lots of milorganite & alfalfa pellets, & rose food. It was a very expensive hole for this 5x5 rose but she's worth it. Unfortunately, the bed and the rose have sunk a few inches since last February.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I had the same situation for an own root W.Shakespeare 2000. As soon as he was in a pot, he transformed into a wonderful plant. I could not figure out what ailed him in the ground. I know that people who grow japanese maples and blueberries in pots sometimes use something....maybe apple cider vinegar ...as I reacall in a watering can to water the pots with tap water. I use old fish tank water for my bands which was bottled spring water when I bought it for the fish.

I have had good luck with using horse manure+pine needles and bark and covering each thin layer of it with clay soil that I put through a screen and after 6 months it is not gluey. I had bad luck with peatmoss in a clay soil but it works great with pumice and sand as a potting mix.

I just got a bands of Excellenz Von Schubert and just found out that they don't like alkaline soil/water. What to do with them....

Thank you, Sherry, for that chart. The hole you made with sulfur at the bottom is a great idea. One site stated sulfuric acid plus rain plus limestone equals gypsum ... the chemist in the Soil Forum said it's possible. I did lots of experiment with different planting holes, here are the results:

1) Ultra-bad planting hole: I mixed native clay, peatmoss, and alfalfa meal ... then planted a geranium. It was an eyesore during hot summer ... yellowish leaves, really dried out, the concrete I made nearly choked the geranium, until fall rain came to the rescue. This same bad soil-combo killed my peony, it was really yellowish, then died.

2) So-so planting hole: I mixed clay, peatmoss, alfalfa meal, and a huge amount of horse manure (mostly wood chips bedding) .. then planted peonies. They are dark-green ... I never water them, and they are still alive. The iron from horse manure turned their leaves dark-green.

3) Ultra-good planting hole: I mixed native clay, a huge amount of fine pine bark, tiny amount of peatmoss, and scattered alfalfa meal on top, rather than mixed in. I got 80+ roses on 1st-year own-root Firefighter and Bolero.

4) Everything glued up in the following combos: 1) horse manure and clay 2) clay and peatmoss

5) the worst glue-up is clay, peatmoss, and alfalfa meal ... all 3 very fine particles, acid mixed with base equal glue. Big surprise: mixing leaves with clay, after 8 months, it hasn't glue up yet. Those are neutral pH leaves, but I'm testing acidic leaves, corkscrew willow, to see if they glue up with clay next year.

FOR INGRID: I checked the NPK of decomposed granite rock, it's 0-3.5-0, that's quite high in phosphorus for an organic source ... that's why your Dark Lady is so bright red.

I hate to sound dumb, but I don't understand why people are saying that peat moss is bad to use in clay soil. Or have I totally misunderstood? Thanks, bart

If Dr. Huey responds well in the soil conditions you describe, then why not just buy roses grafted on Dr. Huey? That would seem to simplify and solve, at least partially, some of the problems you are dealing with. And its not hard to find roses on Dr. Huey roots afterall since that is how most grafted roses are done already--including the Austins (which are from Texas, not England).

Maybe I'm not understanding the problem correctly.

Kate

Sherry, my mother's gardening mantra is in Florida, you dig a $100 hole even for a $10 plant, and I have always followed her advice. What do you think yours was? A $200 hole?

Strawberryhill, thank you for checking the chemistry of my DCG. I wonder if that's why alfalfa meal works so well for me, since it's mostly nitrate. For The Dark Lady and Sophy's Rose I'll continue to use Lilly Miller since I HATE bright red roses. They're really putting out a lot of new growth since I fertilized with it, by the way. Since I have very few earthworms anyway, using it on just a few roses doesn't seem too criminal a thing to do.

Floridarosez, hopefully, it wasn't even $100. Oh, you know what? I was thinking of the 15 bags of topsoil (more than that, I think) that went into the driveway bed, so it was definitely not anywhere near $100. Unless you count my labor, but I guess we don't count that, do we? Ha! I should call my garden "New Earth".

Ingrid, decomposed granite may not be all that bad since at least it has phosphorus, right? They say Florida sand is only good for holding the plants upright. I forget if you've ever used kitty litter in your amending. Of course, I guess you'd need half a ton from what people have said. Oh, the joys of gardening.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry and Floridarose exchange is quite amusing, thanks.

Hi Bart: peatmoss is bad for clay since they are both fine particles that bind together. If the clay is alkaline like mine, pH of 7.7, it acts like a base to binds with acidic peat moss, pH of 4. If you mix acid and base together, it forms tight-bonds which result in cement.

Hi Kate: I don't get Dr. Huey for Austins since they become monsters here. I like my roses small and compact. Plus my zone is 5a, own-roots die without leaving behind the Dr. Huey eye-sores seen in houses for sale. Dr. Huey is only hardy to zone 6b, can't even bloom in zone 5a. Own-roots are much hardier than Dr. Huey, like Kim Rupert's Lauren is hardy to zone 2a.

Hi Kittymoonbeam: Per your question of "I just got bands of Excellenz Von Schubert and just found out that they don't like alkaline soil/water. What to do with them?" Excellenz Von Schubert has multiflora Crimson Rambler in its parentage, and would do BEST with acidic rain water at pH 5.6 like my Blue Mist.

My Blue Mist has dark-green leaves in our wet seasons only. Even when I fix my tap water with used lemons, my water still has lime, which binds with phosphorus, and make Blue Mist bloom less. Since your Excellenz Von Schubert also has a hybrid perpetual, Merveille de Lyon, in its parentage .... it's best to use a SOLUBLE high phosphorus, but very low nitrogen. Hybrid perpetual has as bad habit of lanky growth, lots of foliage, and stingy blooms. Sherry posted a link to buy SOLUBLE Monopotassium Phosphate at 52% phosphorus and 34% potassium, with low-salt index of 8.4.

Excellenz von Schubert has many petals, translates to more demand for phosphorus, essential for blooms and root growth. My Sonia Rykiel has lots of petals. Within 1 month of purchase as own-root, I counted 15 buds/blooms in a pot watered with SOLUBLE MiracleGro NPK of 10-24-16. Then I put Sonia R. into the ground, and used Lilly Miller acid fertilizer at NPK 10-5-4, it became stingy. This fertilizer worked for Ingrid since her soil is abundant in phosphorus, versus mine tested deficient.

What I would do with Excellenz von Schubert? Use fluffy, acidic potting soil like MiracleGro green bag with pH of 6.5 - The used lemon water with vitamin C helps with rooting, then I would use SOLUBLE fertilizer high in phosphorus for maximum bloom.

In the Blueberry forum, those with fluffy soil, amended with organic matter like pine and leaves, grow a good crop of blueberries despite their alkaline soil/water. Fluffy soil encourages maximum root-growth, and cluster-root becomes more eficient in acid phosphatase, or secreting acid to unlock phosphorus from soil.

Correction: The pollen parent of Excellenz is Frau Karl Druschski, a hybrid perpetual, and this has the parent Merveille de Lyon. My hybrid perpetual Paul Neyron likes morning sun and hates intense sun.

A person made this comment about Excellenz von Schubert in HMF: "I have mine planted in a place where it gets 1/2 day of sun in the morning, and it's very happy and doesn't fade. That's in Northern California."

If you are close to me Kitty, I have an idea for your Excellenz..... :)

I need to test, but the soil on my side of the Fir trees should be more acid than the rest of the garden. So far the Blueberries like it on that line.

Yeah, Sherry, the size of your hole and the time spent amending is included. In other words, you don't just dig a hole the size of the rootball and stick your rose in.