Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
jaspermplants

Mystified by mix-ups

jaspermplants
12 years ago

In the past few years of growing old roses I have been mystified by a couple roses that have been mis-identified in the past. To my eyes they look nothing like each other, but, from my reading, I've noted they were mixed up in the "olden days". A couple are:

Sombreiul and Mlle de Sombrieul: I grow both and they look nothing like each other in leaf and form of the plant. Sombrieul is stiff and very very thorny and Mlle de Sombrieul has much fewer thorns and is a more lax grower. I'm not sure about the blooms since Mlle de S. hasn't bloomed yet (though it's been in the ground for 2 years!)

Gen. Schlablakine and Mons. Tillier: I grow both and the blooms are entirely different to me. I really can't see how these were mixed up.

Any ideas on how these mix ups happen and anyone noticed others like this?

Comments (41)

  • jacqueline9CA
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been shipped the wrong rose when I ordered one - I think we all have. If you really didn't know what a rose looked like, and you got the wrong one, and it didn't bloom for 2 years, you might think it was the one you originally ordered .........

    Also, I think in the past nurseries sometimes sold roses under the wrong name because they sold better - sounds weird, but I have read of such things.

    Sometimes the original correct rose disappears, and then from then on everyone thinks the imposter is the correct one. This could have happened with Sombrieul, but luckily we still have the original tea MdS.

    Jackie

  • mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”

    Leslie Poles Hartley

    Photographs are few and far between. Gardens with correctly identified roses are even rarer. Most of the written descriptions are along the lines of 'pink, vigorous, very fine'. To add to the general confusion, the biggest reintroducers of OGRs to the American market received many mislabeled roses. At that point, the question almost becomes can we be sure of the correct ID of any old rose?

  • gardennatlanta
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, What a wonderful, clear and detailed response. Thank you. It all makes sense. I've learned a lot.

  • jaspermplants
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, I was hoping to get a response from you on this and thanks for the great information! I really appreciate it. This stuff isn't written down anywhere!

  • jaxondel
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, You're correct about the 'Irene Watts'/'Pink Gruss an Aachen' confusion, but it gets even more complicated. Some roses seem almost eerily prone to being involved in such mix-ups -- and 'Irene Watts' is certainly one of them. The authors of the recent (and wonderful) book, "Tea Roses -- Old Roses for Warm Gardens", report that in Australia and New Zealand the rose once grown and admired as the China 'Irene Watts' was found to actually be the famous Tea, 'Comtesse de Labarthe' (aka 'Duchesse de Brabant').

    Regarding the 'Jacques Cartier'/'Marchesa Boccella' conflation, you made the interesting observation that perhaps one of the two fell into extinction because it wasn't quite as vigorous as the rose it closely resembled. I wonder if that's precisely what became of 'Irene Watts'. Doomed, not because it wasn't a fine rose, but merely because it looked much like another fine, perhaps more vigorous, rose?

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, something very much like that happens with apple varieties, too.

    Over time wonderful and flavorful apples get selected more and more for the highly marketable red color to the exclusion of taste. As this happens, the quality of the apples deteriorates. As I understand it, once upon a time Red Delicious really was delicious, though probably not as red as it is today.

    Rosefolly (who also grows heirloom apples)

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another example of a similar rose reportedly being a better grower and replacing another seems to have occurred with American Beauty versus Ulrich Brunner (a mention of that at link below). I ran into this example while trying to identify a rose started as a cutting from the yard of my Aunt Dorothy's rented Victorian in the late 1950's in downtown Sebastopol, CA (now condos, of course). My rose is Ulrich Brunner (virused, by the way).

    Here is a link that might be useful: Ulrich Brunner vs American Beauty

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome, Jeff. It really DOES make sense when you become aware of it. You're welcome jaspermplants. I think much of it is on HMF under the various roses. I've tried to make sure it's part of that database as it (HOPEFULLY!) might help unravel confusion in the future.

    I'm not surprised that Aussies have a different rose confused as Irene, Jax. As variable as they all are, it makes perfect sense something else might look more like it elsewhere, and, they may not have had access to Pink Gruss an Aachen when the mix-up occurred there. I honestly believe you're spot on about the better performing rose taking the original's place. Irene probably was doomed by the Aachen sport which resembled it so closely. At least in my old Newhall garden, the Beales' "Irene Watts" was flawless. Never any disease at all, always in flower and perfection all through the year. Vigorous on its own roots and wonderfully fragrant. Based upon that plant, I couldn't imagine how that rose could have ever fallen from commerce.

    I understand your points about the apples perfectly, rosefolly. Just as our society values red HTs as the absolute symbol of love, the shiny, deep red, Red Delicious is the ideal for moms to put into their children's lunches. Even though they have no taste and texture like rotting foam rubber. with the result that the vast majority are thrown away, or at other children.

    There has recently been a comment about how judicious bud selection can improve as well as destroy a rose. Apples are a much more insidious case. Common practice is for the grower to test the fruit for sugar content to determine when is ideal for harvest, shipping and storage. That sugar content test also identifies micro sports which have degenerated, lost some of their ability to produce sugar, hence taste. For growers and retailers, that is wonderful as it is sugar which results in the fruit spoiling faster. Wood from those branches which don't produce as much sugar is used to propagate new trees of the "improved" variety. For we who EAT the apples, it means they no longer taste anything like the apples we grew up on. The Red Delicious apple (and almost all other varieties you can purchase at the supermarkets) is no longer genetically identical to the original tree. They have been selected for their inability to create sugar in their fruit. But, the trees you buy to grow in your garden are more often the same as the original. We still buy the pretty fruit in the markets based upon our memories, even though they don't taste the same, but to make a tree purchase worthy of your dollar, they're usually still much the same as you remember. Those apples don't have to be able to be harvested, stored up to two years in nitrogen storage and shipped world wide to sit on a market's shelves for up to two months without spoiling, so they can be made available year round. "Seasonal" means just that. It has a season. If you can get it out of season, it either comes from somewhere else, or it isn't going to taste as you expect it to.

    When you travel to Tehachapi and Ramona (and other apple producing areas around the country) to buy apples from the orchards, you most often get the originals, or as close to them as is available as that fruit is for fresh eating, not storage and transport. That fruit spoils quickly compared to what's in the usual supermarket because they contain sugar, which ferments and releases ethylene gas. "One bad apple spoils the whole bunch". Ethylene gas is why. It's also why putting a bunch of bananas in a paper bag to ripen works.

    If you've encountered Honey Crisp apples in the markets in the past two years and paid the higher price for them, you will fully understand the difference. Honey Crisp is a new enough variety, it hasn't been "improved" by bud selection to increase its shelf life and storage ability. Its season is MUCH shorter and its prices per pound significantly higher than all the older, established varieties on the shelves. All that sugar makes them rot quickly and taste wonderful! Once they are "improved", you'll find them year round in the stores at similar prices to the Delicious, Gala, Braeburn, Fuji, Granny Smith, etc. fruit seemingly always available and always at lower prices than those which still taste as they once did. Kim

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can understand it.

    Some years ago I planted some roses on my back fence, then a few months later needed to move them before I had learned to associate the roses with their tags. Some tags got lost or buried. If it had not been for a knowledgeable friend setting me straight, I would still think that my Crepuscule was Lady Hillingdon.

    Rosefolly

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My message above referred to the general premise of the thread, not Kim's response to me, which I am just now reading.

    Kim, I do like Honeycrisp apples. There was a very interesting article in a recent issue of the Wall Street Journal discussing this very issue, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703545604575407850410345426.html, and also one in The New Yorker, http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/21/111121fa_fact_seabrook.

    My favorite apples are heirloom varieties Winesap and Ashmead's Kernel, both of which are sweet, zingy, juicy, and quite complex. Some apples evolve in cool storage, to the point where they actually taste better after some time. Ashmead's Kernel is said to be such an apple, but I like it best right off the tree.

    Okay, back to roses. BTW, apples and roses are closely related, so I didn't get too far off topic!

    Rosefolly

  • jaspermplants
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rosefolly, my thread was referring to roses that were generally mixed up in commerce, not by an individual gardener. I was referring to how it was baffling to me that one could be mixed up with another by rose vendors and whoever else comes in contact with them, over time, since some don't seem that similar to each other.

    Thanks for everyone's replies, they were interesting.

  • TNY78
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In reguard to Sombrieul and Mlle de Sombrieul, I also grow both (although Sombrieul was accquired by an error, in which I should have received Souv de la Malmaison). Both have mine have bloomed, and they look nothing alike! Also, as you said, my Mlle de Sombrieul grows very lax and is happy potted, while Sombrieul is rigid and is now climbing my fence. I also read that Colonial White was originally marketed as a new rose, but was found to actually be Sombrieul. I'm just curious how many other roses out there are roses actually duplicates of other roses?

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We know that Mrs. Keyes had the real 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' in the 1920's. She mentions collecting it from an old garden, at a historic property. There, it was cared for by a "black gardener" who knew "who" the rose was. Her photograph is clear enough to show which of the two it is.
    By the mid-50's, "Sombreuil" was being offered by a California nursery associated with ROY&T as a vigorous climber.
    The true Mlle. was placed into commerce as 'La Biche,' and the rest is "history."

    It WAS a real fight, tho, clearing the record.
    And yes, there are still people who claim that 19th-Century descriptions of 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' as "vigorous" indicate that it was the Climber.

    Jeri Jennings

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It always is, Jeri. Much of what has been written as descriptions is open to interpretation. Everyone wants to believe theirs IS the correct one, even when faced with irrefutable evidence. It nearly becomes the "Holy Grail" to find the real one. I wonder how often we're going to find what we have identified as the 'real' one, is actually better in most of our gardens then the actual "real" ones are? I'm glad Jacques Cartier outlived the Marquise. Everywhere I've gardened, Portlands are tremendously better than the best of the best Hybrid Perpetuals. Based upon how the average "China" performed in Newhall (and here), the floribunda Pink Gruss an Aachen kicked butt. If the "real" Irene performs like Old Blush, I wouldn't like to grow her. Sure, there would be many flowers, but the plant always had mildew and bitterly resented any removal of wood. If she is like Miss Lowe (Vintage), I could live with her.

    Hopefully, DNA testing will come down in the range were some of us can actually research some of these questions. Unless you have the "real" of something, you won't be able to tell if it is real or not, but you could determine if Colonial White is related to the species and/or New Dawn, and state categorically it is NOT a "Tea". It probably is a Wichurana - Hybrid Tea cross. Everything about the plant and flower just 'speak' that. Kim

  • seil zone 6b MI
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Look for an apple called Cox Orange. Looks ugly but tastes wonderful!

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " I also read that Colonial White was originally marketed as a new rose, but was found to actually be Sombrieul. "

    That's not quite right. I think the main HelpMeFind page is misleading. There are two unrelated roses:

    1. A French tea rose of 1850 that is probably identical with the rose sold by Vintage as "Mlle de Sombreuil" and was sometimes called just "Sombreuil." This same rose has also been identified, erroneously, as "La Biche," which is actually the name of a different white tea rose.

    2. A large-flowered climber of later, American origin and R. wichuairana parentage that has been known both as "Sombreuil" and as "Colonial White." This rose for decades was mistakenly identified with the old tea rose and exhibited as a tea. The ARS in 2006 reclassified it as a large-flowered climber but, perversely, allowed it to keep the imposter name of 'Sombreuil" as its official exhibition name. All roses sold by that name in the US, past or present, are rose #2.

    An Ohio rosarian named Wyant found this rose #2 somewhere, claimed to have bred it, and introduced it as "Colonial White" in 1959. Also in the 1950s (?), the California nursery Roses of Yesterday and Today obtained rose #2, misidentified it as the tea rose "Sombreuil," and sold lots of them under that name. That's where the confusion began.

    According to HMF, the ARS committee in 2006 claimed that rose #2 dates from around 1880. That must be incorrect; perhaps they said AFTER 1880. According to Gerd Kreussman, the first Wichuraiana climbers were introduced by Michael Horvath in 1898, although he began breeding with that species ca. 1883. As far as I know, rose #2 could have originated any time between 1890 and the 1950s. It's generally though that Wyant did not breed rose #2, but rather found it. He is known to have been a liar. I don't know whether ROYAT was selling rose #2 before Wyant found the rose or not. Although rose scholars have studied the surviving catalogs, rose #2 has not been identified with any known early climber. It could be a chance seedling or sport, or a rose discarded from a commercial breeding program because its flower form was out of fashion.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Catspa, I know someone who lives in the Sebastopol area. She asked me if the Victorian your aunt rented which has been replaced by condos might have been across the drive from the Masonic Hall? Kim

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Michael, no. They really said around 1880, at the dogged insistence of one person who claimed that literature describing 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' as "vigorous" meant it was a climber -- BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS TEA ROSES ARE NOT VIGOROUS.

    Seriously.
    I'm not kidding.

    Personally, I'd bet money Wyant scarfed that rose from Horvath, but of course, there's no proof other than motive and opportunity -- oh, and Wyant's other adventures. But that's a secondary issue.

    The San Jose Heritage Rose Garden grew "Cl. Sombreuil" and "Colonial White" side-by-side. Col. Mel Hulse held that there were no differences. They are the same rose.

    ARS's committee was well aware of that.

    Jeri

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeri, Kim etc: I'm sure someone has explored this possibility, but does the timing allow Wyant's rose #2 to have come from ROYAT?

  • Campanula UK Z8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mmmm another apple grower. Ashmead's Kernel is not with me anymore as it does not like my sandy soil....but Ribston pippin is a good replacement. Not wanting to disagree with Seil but I must as the Cox is a dog - weedy, mildewy and a nightmare to grow unless it is on really specific rootstock in really specific circumstances (not mine). Still, with at least 3000 to choose from, spoilt for choice. But, I have to confess to not really being bothered whether they are a 'heritage' variety or not as I also grow a couple of fantastic moderns (scrumptious - the name almost put me off). My favourite is Laxton's Fortune and most detestable apple ever tasted was Idared.

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, the house in Sebastopol was directly across from the Memorial Lawn Cemetery on Bodega Avenue (and near what used to be Marty's Top o' the Hill lounge, a well-known "landmark", now apparently a French restaurant). I had to ask my Mom, as I was only 4 or 5 years old at the time. It had a huge wrap-around porch and I remember it as a pale green color with a big garden and a fish pond.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you catspa. I've let her know. For anyone who wants to try heirloom apples (and other fruit), Greenmantle not only has a wonderful collection of unusual roses, but Ram creates antique fruit trees to your specifications. They're definitely a source deserving of support!

    I don't have the information to research your idea, Michael, but it's probably a likely chance. Even if the rose wasn't "in commerce" at the time, much is swapped and moved behind the scenes before it surfaces elsewhere.

    When material was being collected to create the Heritage in San Jose, I was contacted by its "people" and asked if I could introduce them to Don Jarvis in Ontario, CA. The only problem was, I didn't know Don. So, I called him, introduced myself and made the connection. Don had been a long-distance trucker for many years and he had an "old rose obsession". He KNEW Tillitson, and pretty much everyone else in the rose world, and traded things with him. By the time we met, probably twenty years ago, Don was on "the older side" and had been suffering from prostate cancer for many years. I believe both he and Evedna are gone now. But, their garden contained such wonders! HMF lists three roses he discovered, one being Cl. Winifred Coulter, though Mrs. Jim Kirk sent me a smouldering letter some years ago disputing that "discovery".

    Don kept "rustling supplies" in his truck and collected roses everywhere he went. He had no trouble introducing himself to anyone and asking for a piece of their rose. He frequently offered them pieces of his, too. It would be impossible to determine now, but I'm sure there were things which made their way across the country, both directions, Don played a part in. If a rose looked old, particularly if it was unnamed, Don wanted it. He shared his treasures freely with anyone who expressed interest (and with many who didn't! LOL!) Theirs was a story worth repeating. They had known each other in school, if I remember correctly, somewhere like Ohio. He moved away, both got married, then divorced and many years later, mutual friends "introduced" them for a date. The rest was history. Whether they were the people meant to be together years before is debatable, but they had definitely grown to be each others' perfect match. Very lovely people, and both very "into" roses of any kind. He discovered a more single sport of Winifred Coulter and called it "Sweet Evvie" in her honor. I believe it's lost now. I'm sure if Wyant had Colonial White when Don drove the country, it could have been completely possible he might have moved it from Wyant to Tillitson as Don brought him things frequently. There were roses from all over the country Don had purloined from this and that place, and there were many more old plants all over all those decades ago. He very may well have played a part in this, and many other "mysteries". Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Greenmantle

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    but does the timing allow Wyant's rose #2 to have come from ROYAT?

    *** I'd have to go back and look at my time-line (yes, I made one up when all this was going on).

    AH! Yes. That is feasible, but I think Tillotson would have jumped on that like a duck on a June bug.
    Moreover, Wyant's "Modus Operandi" makes it more likely that it was stolen locally (Horvath???).
    Here's tie timeline:

    �SOMBREUIL� TIMELINE

    1851 � �Mlle. de Sombreuil� Introduced.
    Rumored to be a seedling of �Parks Yellow,� Also associated with �Adam.�
    a. �Adam� is 1838, said to be �Hume�s Blush� (T) x �Rose Edouard� (B)(the first Bourbon?)
    b. Where did the business of �Gigantesque� come into the records????

    NOTE: Per Brent Dickerson:
    The rose was introduced as �Mlle. de Sombreuil,� but the name was almost immediately shortened by most to �Sombreuil.�
    This adds to the confusion, since two previously-introduced roses � one a Gallica, the other an Alba � were named �Sombreuil.� Few post-1860 references include the full name.

    "It seems as if the "Mlle." was dropped almost immediately. In the plate of it which I added to the *Adventurer* because I wanted to get the image "out there," the artist is already calling it 'Sombreuil', and it had just been released! Yet more discouraging is that pretty soon the introducers and their successors themselves were listing it just as 'Sombreuil'. So this is a case where a rose was introduced under a longer name; and, starting about ten minutes later, everyone was calling it by its shorter name. Off the top of my head, I think only once have I seen use of the "Mlle. de --" in the name of this rose after about 1860--certainly, to my chagrin, very very few times.

    The distinction, however, is necessary, even over and above questions of nomenclatural priority and the fact that there really were two roses (an Alba and a Gallica) introduced as 'Sombreuil': Mr. Sombreuil and his daughter were figures in the French Revolution; just "Sombreuil" would refer to the man, prefixing the "Mlle. de" lets us know that it's the daughter being referred to."

    1867 -- "Nestel's Rosengarten", Part 3, by H. Nestel, Stuttgart,
    Plate #11 illustrates the true �Mlle. de Sombreuil,� and gives it under the name: "Madame de Sombreuil". (The rose has now been in commerce for 60 years.)

    1882 � ELLWANGER Writes : "Sombreuil T., 1851 Moreau-Robert Vig. Evidently of
    Bourbon parentage on one side. Creamy white often tinged with pink, large or very large, full
    well formed; the hardiest & most vigorous of the white Teas and free from mildew. A valuable sort for culture in the open air."

    1893 -- 1893 Nursery Catalog lists �Mlle. de Sombreuil� in Northern California
    John H. Sievers, 25 Post Street, San Francisco, California
    (NOTE: In the 20th Century, Phillip Robinson will collect �Mlle. de Sombreuil� from an old garden in Santa Rosa, CA, -- less than 60 miles North of San Francisco.)

    1885 -- MAX SINGER lists �Sombreuil� as a seedling of �Gigantesque�
    Tea Rose, Hardy, 1835, light pink, seedling of �Parks Yellow Tea-Scented China.�

    1903: "Le Livre d'Or des Roses," Paul Auguste Hariot, Paris,
    Chromolithograph plate #12, illustrates the true �Mlle. de Sombreuil�
    (uses the name �Sombreuil�)
    THE ROSES IN THIS PUBLICATION IS IDENTICAL TO THAT SHOWN IN NESTLE, 1967. A RATHER LOOSE, "BLOWZY" TYPICAL, OLD, BUSH-TYPE TEA ROSE.
    This demonstrates that the correct rose, under either of the variations of its name, was in commerce IN FRANCE as late as the early 20th-Century, as a Tea Rose..

    1935 -- �Sombreuil� is in the San Jose Municipal Rose Garden.
    Dr. Adams lists �Sombreuil,� and copies Ellwanger�s description.
    Three �Sombreuil� progeny are also in that garden.
    'Helen Paul' H.R., 1881 Lacharme Raised from Victor Verdier x Sombreuil. White, sometimes shaded with pink. Large, globular flowers.

    'Julius Finger' H.T., 1870 Lacharme Mod. From Victor Verdier x Sombreuil. Salmon pink in the style of Capt. Christy. A promising [illegible]

    'Mme. Lacharme' HCh, 1872 Lacharme Dwf. Claimed to have been raised from Jules Margottin & Sombreuil. White tinged with pink, medium size, full or very full, globular. Does not open well & is shy in Autumn. Of bushy growth & quite hardy.

    1928 � Ethelyn Emory Keays (at nearly 60 years of age) purchases Creek Side, in Maryland.
    By 1929, she is collecting Old Roses from her area.
    1929-1934) Ethelyn Keays Acquires �Sombreuil� from "The Trap"
    Some time between 1929 and 1934, Keays is given 'Sombreuil,' by "Rachel," a black woman gardener at "The Trap," (The former home of Thos. McDonough, New Castle Co., present day McDonough, Delaware).
    The Trap was the early home of Commodore Thomas McDonough. Hero of the Battle of Lake Champlain 1814. (B. 1783, d. 1825.) Assisted Commodore Decatur in capturing and burning the "Philadelphia" off the coast of Tripoli, 1804. The original name of the village, "The Trap", was changed to "McDonough" in 1914. McDonough�s parents lie in old burying ground nearby. The plantation is a state-marked Historic Place.
    LOCATION: US 13, west side,south of DE 896, 19.7 miles south of Wilmington.
    KEAYS description of �Sombreuil� is:
    Sombreuil, 1851, came from a fine old garden sadly out of past glory. This rose differs from all those preceding (several other Tea Roses listed) by having a marked and distinguishable mixture of Bourbon blood in the Tea Rose ancestry. The full, fragrant bloom has a fine expanded form, within which very strongly textured petals stand in excellent order and stiffness, making a grand rose of creamy white tinted with pale pink or pinkish white, depending on the weather, becoming white eventually and lasting in form a long time; blooming in large clusters of a very sturdy bush with thick dark green foliage, quite leathery and more deeply serrate than the pure Tea foliage. Sombreuil, with all this resistant toughness, should be the finest white Tea rose of the garden, and is such in dry, clear, sunny weather but a too moist spring causes the blooms to ball badly.
    (NOTE: In subsequent paragraphs, Keays describes Climbing Teas. She does not include �Sombreuil� among these, and specifically lists �Gloire de Dijon,� 1853, as the " . . . first of a new type . . "
    It seems fairly certain that the �Sombreuil� grown by Keays, obtained as a known plant, was not a climbing rose.

    1930 -- "MODERN ROSES" (I) lists �Sombreuil� (NOT �Mlle. de Sombreuil�)
    Sombreuil. T. (Moreau-Robert, 1851.) Evidently of Bourbon parentage on one side. Flower very large, double, full, flat, well-formed, creamy white, often tinted pink. Foliage disease-resistant. Growth vigorous. Hardy.

    1931 -- Lester writes "The discovery, protection and preservation of our old roses constitutes a challenge to all rose-lovers. No one person, no one committee can do justice to it. It is a duty resting upon all who love the rose, its history, its romance, its usefulness as an agency of human happiness, to save our disappearing old roses for the benefit of present and future generations and to make known their manifold advantages to all who love gardens." (American Rose Annual)

    1932 -- Keays first writes for the American Rose Annual
    (Lester is also writing for the Annual at this time.)

    1934 -- Keays writes the dedication to "OLD ROSES."

    1935 -- San Jose, CA, Municipal Rose Garden: Dr. Adams lists �Sombreuil,� and three recorded progeny* of �Sombreuil.� His description seems to repeat Keays description.
    �Sombreuil� Vig. T Moreau-Robert 1851 � Evidentally of Bourbon parentage on one side. Creamy white often tinged with pink. Large or very large, full well formed; the hardiest & most vigorous of the white Teas & free from mildew. A valuable sort for culture in the open air.
    (Did Adams know Keays? Surely, he knew OF her. Did he know Lester? Surely he must have, since both men collected Old Roses around Northern California in the same period of time.)

    1937 -- Lester begins planting his garden (The Marjorie Lester Gardens) in Browns Valley

    1940 -- "MODERN ROSES II"
    Sombreuil. T. (Moreau-Robert, 1851.) Gigantesque seedling. Very large, dbl., flat, well formed, creamy white, often tinted pink. Vig."
    No mention of Bourbon parentage.
    Several �Gigantesques� are listed. The most likely is: Gigantesque (Tea, Hardy, 1835).
    (Did Wyant pick up on (Mme.) "Hardy" for his 'Colonial White' parentage?

    1942 -- Lester's "MY FRIEND THE ROSE" is published.

    1945 � Francis Lester dies
    (Is Tillotson already a partner? I believe so.)

    1946 -- Keays last ARS Annual article is published.
    a. Keays sells Creek Side, and returns to New York.
    She writes no more on roses.

    1947-1948 Catalog: "California Roses" (John van Barneveld), catalog unnumbered, page 10 of 12: Offers (RICA) Sombreuil:
    "White (Climbers)SOMBREUIL creamy-white. Heavenly fragrance 1.50"

    1952 -- Tillotson is writing the ROY&T catalog.
    "Let it be admitted forthwith, all quips, quirks, effusions, omissions and errors within are the sole responsibility of Will Tillotson. Mrs. Lester looks with considerable doubt and some alarm on the literary antics of the catalog-writer."

    1954 -- ROY&T Catalog features (RICA) Sombreuil:
    "SOMBREUIL 1850 (I) We revelled in the HEAVENLY FRAGRANCE filling the garden from the flat well-formed many petalled roses. We liked the clean creamy white color of the flower which followed crop after crop. The foliage was always clean and the plant the most vigorous of the good white climbers. then we tried a pair of them on weeping trees on the driveway at home. Now we swear it is the best white by far! Once you have that SCENT registered you will never forget it for there is no other ROSE PERFUME anywhere that equals it".
    (i) refers to a growth habit of 8 to 10 ft. with strong canes.
    (ii) Text is taken from van Barneveld�s 1954 catalog
    1955 � DECEMBER FLOOD DESTROYS ROY&T
    ("the poignant "ANNOUNCEMENT" of this disaster, written by Marjorie and her husband and partner Byron Quayle is displayed among the catalogs").

    1957 -- Will Tillotson dies in Europe while on a buying trip.
    a. Dorothy Stemler (Formerly the "Esteemed Secretary") takes over ROY&T.

    1957 -- Ralph Moore is in contact with Melvin Wyant, Dorothy Stemler, et al.

    1959 -- Melvin Wyant releases 'Colonial White,'
    recording its parentage as 'New Dawn' x 'Mme. Hardy'

    1961 Ethelyn Emory Keays dies in New York

    1967 -- Dorothy Stemler writes book: "THE BOOK OF OLD ROSES"
    illustrated with her own photographs. Stemler in The Book of Old Roses: p. 32
    "SOMBREUIL. Climbing Tea (1856) 6 to 10 feet.
    One of my favorite roses. Its fragrance is unique. One person described it as being like wild Canadian raspberries.
    The creamy open blooms are flesh tan at the center, so delicately colored it almost seems to be a reflection from something else on the rose."

    1967 -- Dorothy Stemler writes book: "ROSES OF YESTERDAY"
    Illustrated by Nanae Ito. Introduction by James Gould Cozzens

    1969 � "MODERN ROSES 7," � The McFarland Co., �Sombreuil� is listed as a Tea
    (NOT a Cl. Tea)
    "Sombreuil. T. (Robert, 1850.) Gigantesque seedling. very large. dbl. flat, well formed, creamy white, often tinted pink. Vig."

    1977 � Melvin Wyant dies

    1980 � "MODERN ROSES 8" published. �Sombreuil� is listed as a Cl. Tea.

  • jaspermplants
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeri, very interesting information. Makes me laugh to hear how "unscientific" it all was.

    Do you know how to find Mrs Keays writings, other than her book, which I have and cherish? I've done some searches online for her writings in rose journals but didn't find much.

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So the first mention of a climber (presumably Rose #2) is by van Barneveld in CA in 1947. No clues as to where it came from.

  • seil zone 6b MI
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! You guys are incredible. I'm on information overload here. This thread has an amazing amount of history to digest. I'm going to copy and save it for future reading and reference.

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Michael, yes. That's it.
    So -- not knowing where it ACTUALLY came from, we are free to speculate wildly. :-) (Now, isn't that fun?)

    Jasper -- I don't know of any comprehensive listing, but if Google can't find it . . . well . . .

    You know, she was really only active for a few years, beginning when she was, I believe, 60 years old. (And 60 was older, then, than it is these days.) Following the death of her husband, she returned full-time to N.Y., where I believe she remained.

    It's a shame she didn't start earlier, and continue later, because she accomplished a great deal.

    For those who have not read her, I recommend HIGHLY her book, 'OLD ROSES,' which can be had on the Internet pretty inexpensively. We all know Thos. Christopher's excellent 'IN SEARCH OF LOST ROSES,' and it's excellent -- but Mrs. Keays preceded him, and what she found and learned was extraordinary.

    Give yourself 'OLD ROSES' as a Christmas present. Fasten your seatbelt and sit down with her for a genuinely great read.

    Jeri

  • jaspermplants
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I very much second Jeri on recommending Mrs. Keays book, 'Old Roses'. It's beautifully written, very informative, and best of all (to me), her love for old roses is soo apparent throughout the book.

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wonderful story about Don Jarvis. Thank you for that one, Kim. I had not heard it before.

    The old rose world has many unsung heroes.

    As for Greenmantle, I've never ordered from them. I find their website intriguing but bewildering. I can never tell what is actually available.

    Rosefolly

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome Rosefolly. The "rose world" has many interesting, lovely "unsung heroes".

    To this list, we should probably add Bloomfield Abundance/Spray Cecile Brunner. Bloomfield Abundance was a Wichurana hybrid. What is in trade in this country is actually Spray Cecile Brunner which has NOTHING to do with any Wichurana. Kim

  • Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There is mention of a climber far earlier than 1947. Check out the references section on HMF.

    Here are a couple of them:

    "List of Roses Now In Cultivation At Chateau El�onore, Cannes
    Book (1898) Page(s) 33.
    Sombreuil Tea - Moreau Robert, 1851
    Creamy white, tinted with pink, large, full, and well formed, hardy and vigorous, producing large quantities of flowers. It is very effective growing up trees. Has a resemblances to the Bourbon type."

    "Deutsches Rosenbuch
    Book (1889) Page(s) 131.
    Tea roses. Sombreuil (Robert-Moreau 1858). Large, double, white, slightly salmon. Forcing rose, vigorous, climbing."

    Multiple other sources cited on HMF, including much earlier than the above, comment about how very vigorous the rose is. However, there is a lack of consistency regarding the descriptions of its color, the number of petals (semi-double or full--and on Vintage's website very double), and the shape of the flower (for instance flat, cupped, or globular). Read ALL the references, in particular the quite old ones, and then compare them to the photos on HMF.

    The comments section makes for very interesting reading, especially those by John Hook. He makes some good points. Also note the comments on this picture,
    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.172590&tab=32

    Melissa

    Here is a link that might be useful: John Hook's remarks on HMF about

  • nastarana
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Roseseek, I have ordered Fragrant Cloud VID from VG for next spring. After reading your comments above, I am glad I didn't buy a (possibly mislabelled) big box FC. I suppose if I order Tropicana from any of the more reputable small nurseries, I will receive the real Tropicana?

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd honestly expect you would, nastarana. It would honestly be worth ordering Tropicana from Vintage as a custom root. Tropicana can be a spectacular rose...IF you get the right one and a good plant of it. Yes, it does seem to have its own brand of mildew, but that can be overcome with little problem and those flowers absolutely glow! Who knows? Perhaps, YOU may be the first person I might hear honestly state you can smell it? Supposedly, it has a raspberry scent. It's even been described as 'strong', though I've yet to actually meet anyone who has ever claimed to have smelled it. I know I can't.

    If you like those colors (which I do!) and you want a scent as powerful as Fragrant Cloud's, also order VI Typhoo Tea from Vintage. That scent is as sharp, crisp and unforgettable as Fragrant Cloud's (even though it's described as "moderate", it is STRONG!) and that flower is as saturated and intense as any of the other two. Typhoon is another with an intense fragrance and glowing blooms. Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Typhoo Tea

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is it a good idea to try growing own-root HTs in zone 5?

  • nastarana
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dear Michael, I will know this spring, after I see whether Shi Un and Silver Star, well protected for the winter, have survived.

    So far this is looking like a zone 6 winter, but early months yet, I suppose. I did bring inside most of my collection of Portland roses, some quite rare. They are "hardy" in 5, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will grow. I did see a number of HTs growing at Freedom Farm in Ohio last spring, and in Right Rose, Right Place, Peter Schneider has a rather lengthy list of HTs he grows. I may keep them in pots for the summer, placed to receive the most sun possible, and then, depending on how much growth they show, if any, I will decide whether to plant in fall--recommended in Sven Oleson's book about growing roses in Denmark--or keep inside till the next spring.

    Roseseek, I have been steadily ordering from VG this fall, trying to acquire roses which a. I like, b. might possibly grow here, and b. are available no where else. My budget might extend to one or maybe two custom propagations, but RsICA Tropicana are available lots of places. I do want one eventually, but surely places of good reputation would have the right one.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, they hopefully have the right one, unfortunately, not all will have VI material produced ones and that could make the difference in a harsher climate. Your choice. Kim

  • nastarana
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think we will soon need make that used to be harsher climate, but I do take your point.

  • User
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Edith de Murat and Madame Cornelissen?

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wasn't Mme C. mislabeled in one of the European heritage gardens?

    Roses Unlimited is still selling the rose Mme. C under the name Edith de Murat.

  • User
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Looking at the pictures and notes at HelpMeFind, it looks like the plant at L'Hay labeled as Edith de Murat is really Cornelissen. All the photos of Edith de Murat look like Cornelissen. So does this mean all plants of Edith de Murat in commerce are really Cornelissen?

    Also, the plant at Sangerhausen labeled as Cornelissen couldn't possibly be a sport of SdlM. The foliage and sepals are wrong. SdlM doesn't have those feathery sepals. But whatever Sangerhausen has is a very pretty white. Wonder what it is?