First time poster, long time lurker from Greece here. Anybody growing Ispahan in a med-like climate with minimal winter chill hours and warm to hot summers? How large can it get and will it flower satisfactorily? Also would it rather have full day sun or will it tolerate some partial shade?

Too many questions I'm afraid for a first post.
Cheers,
Nik

I looked Ispahan up on HMF, and almost all of the pictures were from Germany, Scandinavia, and the US North East.

Madame Hardy hated it here - we got 1 (one) bloom per year from her, and one cane would grow up after the old one cane died. I finally gave up, and upon inquiring was told that she needed winter chill (we have practically none). So, now I grow teas, chinas, hybrid musks, old hybrid giganticas, noisettes, polyanthas, and other roses that love warm climates.

Jackie

I find that the OB OGRs sometimes do well here for 6-8 years then decline. I have promised myself that I am not going to replace any that die, but a box arrived from Pickering today that proves I am a liar.

Rosefolly

Diane

There was another thread touching on the matter of winter chill and roses, and noted authority Malcolm Manners came on either this or the Roses Forum and commented about this. I've got an article, somewhere on my hard drive.......(will look!), from the Middle East in which they comment on altitude as it relates to roses in that area. So folks may be focussing on the wrong issue. I also think, and this is very much IMHO, that the once bloomers resent the same type of care that is given to hybrid teas, teas, and chinas. Often rose-growing advice revolves around what these roses like best (especially the treatment given to roses in mild winter areas), which is often what many of the old roses like least. One of these things is again, IMHO, the application of too much fertilizer, too often, and at the wrong time of year to allow the oldies to rest (in fall and winter). Not feeding in fall and winter encourages dormancy. And my old roses do go dormant, even without winter chill (this area has too little for apples unless one can find very, very low chill varieties).

When I read rose articles online, a large portion of them assume one is growing hybrid teas. Since roses in this class are so widely grown, it is no surprise that much of the available literature, particularly in the US, is designed to make hybrid teas look their best. Roses that are happy blooming in winter in mild winter areas really appreciate cold weather groceries--old garden roses, not so much.

Of course this no feeding in cold winter weather fits in well with my lazy style of gardening.;) So basically laziness probably accounts for why my old garden roses are happy.

Melissa

Here is a short excerp of what Malcom wrote on Sat, Dec 22, 12 at 14:08:

"So, while some concept of chilling is surely involved here, I think it is not safe to make too many assumptions based on the "standard" model of chill-unit accumulation, e.g. as is used for peaches. And unfortunately, no one seems to have done much formal study of what these roses are actually doing, nor any method of predicting exactly where they will or will not flower well. That would be a good research project for someone to take on."

Melissa

"Although Gallicas perform best in zones 4 to 8 where they go dormant naturally, they may also flower very well in zone 9 to 10 if you induce dormancy. Don't fertilize them after the 1st of August. Remove all leaves left on the plant in December and for this small effort you will be rewarded with the abundance of beautiful bloom that your compatriots north enjoy each spring."

Damasks descend from gallicas, so why not give this a try? Eventhough I'm in zone 9, my old roses lose their leaves on their own. And up to the last several years when I planted quite a few new roses, mine were lucky to get fertilized once a year, so no worries about August 1!

Melissa

But, of course, I wasn't going to accept THAT without a fight.

So, we planted Gallicas, and Damasks -- and Centifolia and Damask mosses. And Bourbons.

All, excepting the mosses, bloomed beautifully the first year, less-so the second year. (The few blooms on the Mosses never opened, due to crusted powdery mildew.)

After that, it was a gradual downhill slide toward death. The last few, we dug before they died, and gave to friends in Tehachapi, where there is a real winter. (INLAND Southern California is very different from COASTAL Southern California.)

The Bourbons were better than the once-bloomers, and they did bloom -- but they suffered dreadfully from fungal diseases, even when we were spraying EVERY week.

So I know they don't work here, and I would tell my neighbors not to plant them. But if they wanted badly to try -- I'd say: "Go for it." Sometimes, you don't know until you try for yourself.

Jeri

You've recommended teas and chinas to me in the past, and I know you thought they would do well. But they do not, nor have they ever in past years when I've tried to grow them either. Ducher and La Biche (some say this is Mademoiselle de Sombreuil) were 2 very memorable disasters in the 1990s. Both died in under 2 years with some of the worst mildew I've ever seen. They arrived as big healthy plants from ARE and grew backwards, just as old garden roses have done for you. Cl. Perle des Jardins gasped along for around 10 years in pitiful shape before expiring. It did its impression of skinny green canes with a few scattered leaves here and there, and the occasional very beautiful yellow flower (didn't ball here!). Then I tried again recently with Tipsy Imperial Concubine (defoliated badly 2 years in a row with blackspot so I gave her away before she had a chance to die on me), Archduke Charles (had HORRIBLE rust and I gave him away before he could croak too), Niles Cochet (probably misidentified and in actuality likely Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona, which simultaneously mildewed, rusted, AND blackspotted--gave it away). And then there is Napoleon. He is one of the most miserable, unsatisfactory roses I've ever had. A mildew champion. I still have him, but in a huge pot. I found one of the secrets that can make him appear happy---massive amounts of food and water. If I feed him more than 20 times what I would give one of my old garden roses, then I can get his foliage to clear up to respectable levels. Back off on the food, and he's covered in fungus. Needs water every day in summer.
I found out about the food because I was so frustrated at the way he looked. Figured I would dump all that fertilizer on him, and he'd either shape up or die, I didn't care which. It was a powdered organic fertilzer 5-5-5 btw. I gave him a heaping cupful, closer to a cup and a half than a cup. Did all these roses come from the same source? Nope. They came from auction, Greenmantle, Eurodesert, and ARE. I tried different colors too. That made no difference. While at the same time the old garden roses were thriving.

My results with gallicas, damasks, and albas is just the opposite of yours. They don't bloom the first year, but bloom more and more as they age.

Yes, I agree coastal and inland conditions are different. But my area gets less winter chill than yours does, so the winter chill cannot be the culprit. My roses go dormant even with very little winter chill. It's gets hotter here, and the air is drier. Rainfall may be similar but I haven't checked that lately. My altitude is 1246 feet. Is that higher than where you are?

Melissa

BTW -- Some of your failures are roses I can't grow here, either (and wouldn't really recommend). I suspect they are happiest in the warm, humid South -- but that's a guess.

Jeri