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| I was completely intent on acquiring this rose and then one niggly question occurred to me. Will it, like most rugosas, defoliate completely in the winter, leaving me with a collection of bare sticks in my other relatively green garden? I might still buy this rose in spite of that since it should begin to get new leaves fairly early in our benign spring here, but that is something I'd like to know. Ingrid |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| As best I recall, last winter Wild Edric lost most of his leaves, but a few remained. I don't think I took any pics of his naked state.;) Right now he has most of his leaves, and they are still green. A few have started to change color. Some of my other roses are way ahead of him though. R. xanthina is already mostly yellow. R. primula too. Another rugosa, Polareis is around 50% yellow. Some of my roses have not a trace of yellow in their leaves yet but we've just had the first real cold snap this week, after some weeks of gradually cooling temps. Btw, I'm glad you brought him up here because it reminded me of your purchase announcement in another thread I hadn't gotten back to yet. Rule of thumb in hot/dry/mild winter areas that I've observed to be true, and in my garden, is that where teas and chinas are happy, and the conditions are what they like, will be precisely where rugosas will not be. Teas and chinas die here (teas fail quicker) because they demand much, much more water (more fertilizer too) then I generally give my roses. So I would advise treating Wild Edric very differently than you do teas and chinas. No pampering, which is likely to make him quite unhappy. Mine is grafted on multiflora from Pickering, so there could be some differences with your new plant as I think you are getting him own root??? Anyway, I selected a spot to plant Wild Edric (March 2012) into very depleted soil in my garden. Think mostly sand/gravel/rocks without much in the way of organic matter. I did not amend the soil. I still have not mulched him. I planted him about 20 feet from the trunk of an enormous ash tree (easily 80 feet plus in height), very much in the root zone. In fact I had to relocate the planting hole multiple times because of all the gigantic roots. As soon as I found a spot I could get the shovel in deep enough for WE's roots, that's where he went.;) He does get some very high, dappled shade throughout the day. The amount changes with the seasons. Also the ash tree is deciduous so WE gets more sun in the winter, and some natural mulch in the form of those falling leaves. Wild Edric does really well here even in the hottest of summer weather, 100 degrees plus. I have him near 2 selections of Rosa californica, and both of them show distress, in the form of droopy leaves, in the summer when they need rescue irrigation. Wild Edric has not, but because he's near them, I've watered him at the same time. However, I've given him less. I also planted in the last year 2 very drought tolerant sages next to Wild Edric. These are the South African, Salvia namaensis and the California native, Salvia mellifera. Neither of these sages tolerate excess summer water. So that is a check on any tendencies to overwater this rugosa. You might want to plant some drought tolerant natives, such as salvias or ceanothus, next to yours that don't like very much summer water. The amount they can take is really far, far less than teas and chinas seem to want. Melissa |
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| Melissa, thank you so much for all this extremely useful information. WE sounds so tough that it's almost difficult to believe it's a rose, and I love the part about it doing well in the heat and not needing much watering. If this rose had existed 6-7 years ago I could have done a lot worse than planting it by the dozens with drought-tolerant plants as companions. The roses that do well for me here still seem to need quite a bit of water, and that may be a scarce commodity in the future. It's rare to find a rose this beautiful that is also tough and unthirsty. I wonder whether I should considering ordering it grafted onto R. fortuneana. I imagine it would grow much more quickly than on its own roots. Ingrid |
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| Sorry, I meant grafted on R. multiflora. Sometimes I don't read so good. |
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| I've been wanting to grow this particular rose for some time now (Rugosa roses remind me of summertime drives to Maine for vacation) but shied away because I wanted it grafted instead of own-root. |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a east of Athen (My Page) on Sat, Dec 7, 13 at 2:47
| I was thinking of trying Wild Edric but I was put off by his rugosa lineage in combination with my alkaline and calcareous soil. Being in Europe I would obtain him grafted and I know the rootstock makes a big difference in pH tolerance but still... As I would get him from DA in the UK he would probably be grafted on laxa rootstock which is fairly tolerant of alkaline pH so I wonder if any other members in Europe grow Wild Edric as grafted in such conditions and what their experience is. I really dislike chlorotic roses.. BTW I was wondering which other Austins share a rugosa lineage with WE. Nik |
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| No experience, but think about a public garden planted with a single large Wild Edric and surrounded by a mass planting of The Nuns. At least the label for the garden would raise smiles. |
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| Mrs Doreen Pike? I have this rose (and so does my son) and there are (as always) pros and cons. It certainly defoliates rapidly and is also quite late into leaf with all the greyish prickly look of rugosas but is also robust enough to cope with excessive competition from perennials and other roses. Which is also just as well because its other fault is a tendency to wildly lopsided growth (and as always, introducing the caveat that this is under my non-tender care so must not be taken as gospel). On the other hand, WE did not suffer from the usual rugosa disgust at alkali soil (which mine is) although the first couple of years it was a bit iffy. Mostly, WE suits my style (ha) of gardening, which is overloading as much as possible into the smallest space then being mean and neglectful, allowing natural attrition to shape my garden (survival of the thuggest)...and WE passes this test with flying colours since it is highly likely to go the entire summer without a drop of water or a sniff of fertiliser. Other roses which failed to pass this stringent test have vanished (or are almost hidden by rampaging anemones while WE is pushing right on through. I suspect its failure to set heps, while disappointing, probably ensured its survival as I rarely deadhead, often sacrificing entire second flushes because I just don't have the time (or inclination). Probably not the most glowing recommendation....but in my garden, such plants deserve the highest praise). My main fault was placing it badly, beneath a cherry tree, hemmed in by a huge cistus - if it had more light, it would be more outstanding.... |
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| For those of you considering Wild Edric, and have alkaline conditions, so do I. Both the soil and water here are alkaline. No signs of chlorosis on Wild Edric ever. Plus mine is grafted on multiflora which some believe doesn't like alkalinity. I haven't found that to be the case in my garden. But getting Wild Edric on multiflora may be a bit difficult in North America as when I bought mine, in spring of 2012, he was in his final season at PIckering. They discontinued a large number of roses at that time unfortunately. The only other place I know of that stocks him in North America is Heirloom, and they only have him own root. I also grow other roses that are said not to like alkaline conditions, but they do just fine for me. However, a couple of times there was widespread chlorosis on roses in my garden, even on roses *not* known to be alkaline sensitive, and this happened only following applications of alfalfa. I don't know what mechanism with alfalfa triggers chlorosis on my roses. All I know is it happens, and it was quite a surprise. So I wonder how many of the people who see chlorosis in their roses also use fertilizers that contain alfalfa or give alfalfa teas? Here is a short passage from the section on grafting in "The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation, second edition (2006) by Michael A. Dirr and Charles W. Heuser, Jr., pages 318-319: "Many clonal rootsocks used for grafting and budding are contaminated with viruses and only virus indexed stock should be used. Clonal roostocks commonly used include: R. canina, commonly used in Europe and raised from seed; R. chinensis 'Gloire de Rosomanes' and 'Ragged Robin', used in the western United States because of its resistance to heat and drought, however susceptible to verticillium; R. dumetorum 'Laxa', the most widely used understock in Great Britain and grown from seed; R. multiflora, a widely used species for outdoor roses that is nematode resistant, and adaptable to a wide range of soils, and propagates easily from cuttings or seed; R. multiflora 'De La Grifferaie', widely used for tree rose production, vigorous and very hardy; R. x noisettiana 'Manetti', widely used for grafting greenhouse roses; R. odorata (Odorata 224490), not cold hardy and widely used for greenhouse roses; R. rugosa, a long-lived species that is propagated from cuttings and seed; R. 'Dr. Huey' is widely used in Arizona and certain parts of California, but not hardy below 0 F and susceptible to verticillium; and IXL (Tausendschon/Veilchenblau), whose main use is in tree rose production, vigorous, no thorns, but not as hardy as 'Dr. Huey' [American Rose Annual 36:101 (1951)]" Note what is said about R. multiflora being "adaptable to a wide range of soils". I am very pleased with the roses I've gotten from Pickering grafted on multiflora, and I have another order from them arriving in spring of 2014. I did ask Pickering about this roostock and told them of people on these forums raising the issue of chlorosis. What they said was they have many people growing their roses, all over the US, even in California (like me) who are happy with the way their roses perform. As in they are not complaining about chlorosis. This makes me wonder even more what management/care is different in the gardens of those who report problems on these forums? I think I've found one of the issues--alfalfa use in alkaline areas--but that doesn't mean it is the only one. Also, in the above quote I noticed the comment regarding Dr. Huey and his susceptibility to verticillium. Roses on Dr. Huey do not live long here. Might verticillium be the cause? Or nematodes? Or both? I have to wonder since roses grafted on multiflora are superb in my garden. Often better than own root. Melissa |
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| Pickering apparently is out of this rose so I had to order it own-root from Heirloom. I'm crossing my fingers that they don't send me a pitifully small specimen that I have to nurse along. I may actually keep this rose in a pot for a while since I literally have no room to plant it, and I want to assess my other roses in the spring to see who deserves to go to rose heaven. I badly want to try a rose that's as tough as this one seems to be. Ingrid |
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| Melissa, Thank you for the information on Rosa dumetorum, "Laxa", as a root stock. I had one that I simply could not identify and "bingo" that's it. It helped that you added that Austin uses it as root stock because the rose grafted on it had been Fair Bianca. As regards alfalfa causing chlorosis on alkaline soil: Here, with limestone subsoil, near neutral clayey top soil and alkaline water, alfalfa has cured chlorosis. However, one of the posters, I think that it was Anne from Tennessee, said that alfalfa had boron in it. As I remember, areas of the Southwest are high in boron. Could excess boron be the cause of the chlorosis in this case? Cath |
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| Cath, glad you found the info useful. I thought it was interesting. Just hadn't seen elsewhere that type of detail all together comparing the various rootstocks and their pros and cons. Must go look for what Anne wrote because she may know lots more than me...... The boron issue is one I have also mentioned on these forums before. In addition to alfalfa (but not sure I discussed both issues together.....) Because my area is known to have high boron in the water, and I know from my years with horses that alfalfa craves boron and many farmers will add boron to the fields that grow alfalfa. So, it is something I've wondered about. Is it the case when the water is already high in boron, then one adds a fertilizer/mulch/whatever that is also high in boron that plants so treated will begin to show distress, depending, perhaps, on their individual tolerances for boron???? Or is it something else entirely? Some combination with other constituents in a particular area's soil or water that adding alfalfa to breaks the camel's back??? How much is the ph a factor? I don't really know. I just know that my area has alkaline soil and water. I asked a group of scientists at my local botanic garden once about why the alfalfa might be triggering chlorosis. First they told me that how I was testing this, by feeding two of the same plants, side by side in pots, one with and one without alfalfa was a good approach. Then, well, what happened was the whole bunch of them got going into the most rapid fire back and forth debate that i couldn't keep up with all they were discussing. All I managed to catch was something (not what exactly!) about cations and anions. And then another staff member distracted me by asking if I wanted to see their copy (a REALLY rare one, like one of only FIVE) of Redoute. I lost all interest in alfalfa.;) You bet I wanted to see that book! Suppose I should ask again, and not let myself get distracted like a crow with a shiny object. Now the alfalfa I used came from different companies. One I think used alfalfa grown in Arizona, and the other in Utah. However, I got the same sad results when applying pellets from either source. Old European garden roses and species looked the worst. Teas and chinas seemed unaffected by chlorosis. Melissa |
Here is a link that might be useful: Rethinking Feeding Alfalfa to Roses in Southern California
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a E of Athens (My Page) on Sun, Dec 8, 13 at 14:41
| In general (not referring to roses in particular) B toxicity does not manifest itself in a similar way as Fe chlorosis caused by Fe deficiency. Some chlorosis may be evident as a symptom of B deficiency but this is usually spoty and concentrated at the leaf margins, often accompanied by marginal leaf burn. Phosphorus is the main iron antagonist especially in high pH soils, followed by copper, zinc and manganese, so if you suspect Fe deficiency, improper P fertilization practices might be involved. In any case a soil analysis should always be the starting point for any preventive or corrective action. Be aware that all too often a complex elementary imbalance is the culprit of apparent chlorosis and not the unavailability or surplus of any one particular element. |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a E of Athens (My Page) on Sun, Dec 8, 13 at 15:07
| Just wanted to add that I personally shy away from organic fertilization practices for potted plants. Firstly too much iffyness (is this a word?) and variability is involved for the relatively unbuffered substrata environment of a pot and secondly very often pot substrata and pot conditions (leaching from watering, thermal fluctuations, lack of microorganisms) are not very conductive to the biological and chemical processes involved in breaking down organic fertilizers to 'stuff' that plants need to survive. |
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