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ingrid_vc

How Many "Non-Performers" Does Your Garden Have?

This may sound like a strange question but here's how it occurred to me: Yesterday morning I wandered through the garden and happened to notice how many roses I have that for one reason or another are not putting on a show. I discovered that out of about 78 roses 2 were not blooming! The main reason is that the majority are too young, some are being disbudded to encourage growth/leaf formation and some (Bon Silene, Amazone, White Meidiland) are not doing well in their less than perfect spots. Lavender Dream is almost bare of leaf and canes since the squirrels love snacking on this rose while leaving the ones on either side intact. Hopefully by next spring and summer the youngsters will give me a few roses, but at least now I realize why my garden seems a little unsatisfactory to me.

Does anyone else have gardens that for one reason or another are "rose poor" even though you have quite a few roses? I realize that for many of you the rose season is over due to your climate so you might have to think back a few months for your answer. This probably isn't the best time of the year to ask that question; please forgive my southern California mindset.

Ingrid

Comments (72)

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Harmonyp: You asked if my rose is really Angel Face, although it smelled like Angle Fart. Yes it is. I screwed up the smell through my "Bayer fertilizer" experiment. I also did an "acid fertilizer" experiment on Mary Magdalene and it took away her fabulous myrrh scent. When I scraped off the fertilizer and water profusely with my alkaline tap water, I got Mary's scent back.

    Bolero smelled great with alfalfa meal, but when I dumped horse manure, plus cold weather hits ... it smelled like rotten flowers. My soil is high in magnesium, and magnesium is released during cold weather. I once dumped epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) in Radio Times in a vase, and it went from sweet Damask to sewage.

    Why I dig my rose up when they don't perform? Roses die to the crown in zone 5a, thus are small. I dig up to see how big the rootball is, if it's too small, I'll move to closer to the house or pile up more dirt for winter survival. I learn by observing the rootballs. The bigger the rootball in proportion to the plant's mass, the more it blooms.

    Jacques Cartier was a huge gangly plant (3 feet), but when I dug up the plant to give to Vicky, its root was really tiny. Annie Laurie blooms like mad, and her rootball is at least 2 gallon, same with mini Blue Mist. The roses at Cantigny park are short like my roses below, except theirs are so loaded you can't see leaves, just flowers... which make me run home and dig up my roses to see what's wrong... Just kidding.

    Below is a picture of my Hybrid tea garden. The white fence is about 1 foot tall. Tropicana is barely that tall. In the second picture, Angel Face is upper right of the white post, Peace is in front.

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Below is a picture of my Austins in zone 5a taken in hot summer, June, around 80 degrees. White Mary Magdalene, orange Pat Austin, and pink Radio Times. Mary and Pat are 1 foot tall, Radio Times is a bit taller. They behave if pruned to a few inches by zone 5a winter. I learn to prune Austins hard, otherwise they don't bloom well and become octopussy giants. I prune when there's plenty of rain to pump out blooms.

    I dug up Pat Austin to give to Vicky, Pat fries at 100 degrees heat, I dug up Radio Times and moved to more room since it got bigger. Again the root-size in proportion to the plant size determines how much it blooms, and how healthy it is. Pat is 100% healthy, blooms lots, big root. Radio Times became stingy as it got larger, its root is small compared to the massive growth above.

  • odinthor
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    harmonyp, when I read that you were integrating DAs into your garden, my first thought was that you must have much more ornamental District Attorneys than are common here. You have to be careful pruning them, though.

  • harmonyp
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Odinthor, I'm going to pee my pants.

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love that joke, Odinthor. My two sisters are lawyers in CA, and they told a joke: the Japanese have engineers to make their pie larger, we Americans have lawyers to fight on how to divide the pie.

    Cantigny rose park here is loaded in everything, except for Austins. They use high phosphorus fertilizer. The Chicago Botanical Garden uses 20-20-20 soluble fertilizer with the result of Charles Darwin being loaded (he's the stingiest Austin, with 140 petals count). Soluble fertilizer like Scott's 20-20-20 also has acid to neutralize alkaline tap water.

    My Charles Darwin won't bloom unless I give it soluble fertilizer high in phosphorus and potassium. Nothing worked before on Charles Darwin: sulfur, alfalfa meal, horse manure, or tons of rain. My alkaline clay soil has plenty of phosphorus, but it's tied up with calcium and magnesium. Dr. Huey can unlock that phosphorus better than some own-roots, such as stingy Charles Darwin and Eglantyne.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I keep a list of discarded roses in my rose journal and was shocked when I counted them yesterday and the number is 91 roses! That's a greater number than I have in the ground. My microclimate accounts for a lot but I've always known I'm not what I would term a "real" gardener. Since I have limited space this is my contribution to keeping on-line nurseries going as long as possible. The downside is that I'm constantly facing a large number of young roses that don't add much to the garden picture. After the last purge not too long ago (too bad I didn't have access to strawberryhill's findings about Charles Darwin when I lifted his wimpy, tiny body out of the ground after more than two years of pretty much nothing), I'm now determined that come hell or high water everything I have now WILL thrive and grow, even if I have to put a gun to a leafy head.

    Ingrid

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I keep a list of discarded roses in my rose journal and was shocked when I counted them yesterday and the number is 91 roses! That's a greater number than I have in the ground. My microclimate accounts for a lot but I've always known I'm not what I would term a "real" gardener. Since I have limited space this is my contribution to keeping on-line nurseries going as long as possible. The downside is that I'm constantly facing a large number of young roses that don't add much to the garden picture. After the last purge not too long ago (too bad I didn't have access to strawberryhill's findings about Charles Darwin when I lifted his wimpy, tiny body out of the ground after more than two years of pretty much nothing), I'm now determined that come hell or high water everything I have now WILL thrive and grow, even if I have to put a gun to a leafy head.

    Ingrid

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Ingrid: I understand your frustration. Kim Rupert is right about newer roses are healthier, and more vigorous as own-root. There are lots of stingy roses as own-roots: Rouge Royal, Mary Rose, Jude the Obscure, Eglantyne, and Charles Darwin.

    Dr. Huey can go through heavy clay better than my shovel. I dug one up and was amazed how the root went through rock-hard clay. It can survive heat and drought better than any own-root. The only thing that Dr. Huey doesn't like is wet and poor-drainage clay, and perished in wet spot in my garden.

    The Romanticas are next for vigor in heavy clay. I moved Frederic Mistral closer to my house. His root is strong and brownish like Dr. Huey, rather than alfalfa-sprout like wimpy Comte de Chambord. I felt so bad for his roots, clinging on to big chunks of concrete clay ... no wonder he gave only 10 blooms for 1st year as own-root. My mix of clay, grass clippings and peat moss turned into solid glue.

    I moved him to a spot amended months ago with 1 bag of coarse sand and 1 bag of fine pine mulch. It's still nice and fluffy, with tons of earthworms. Just think of how folks root cuttings: some does it with play sand, and Melissa in Italy does it in coarse sand and compost. Sand is INORGANIC and won't decompose over time like organic matter such as compost, grass, or leaves. Pine mulch takes a while to decompose, but nothing beats coarse sand.

    I learn to buy band-size roses, and grow them in good potting soil for a huge rootball before putting in the ground. It takes only $6 to make the planting hole perfect: $3 bag of coarse sand, and $3 bag of fine pine mulch to fix alkaline clay.

    To fix sandy soil, I'll list what glued up for me: organic matters like grass & leaves, horse manure, peat moss, alfalfa meal ... those break down and become sticky, great for sandy soil.

  • roseseek
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The quote was many newer roses are healthier than many which preceded them and many newer roses grow better own root than many older varieties. More is known and understood about disease resistance so many represent improvements due to breeding and seedling selection. Own root production has been a selection criteria long enough for that to show great improvement over what came before. Each decade raises the bar for plant quality, vigor, health and bloom production. Not an absolute, but in general breeding and selection show good improvements over time. Kim

  • roseseek
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The quote was many newer roses are healthier than many which preceded them and many newer roses grow better own root than many older varieties. More is known and understood about disease resistance so many represent improvements due to breeding and seedling selection. Own root production has been a selection criteria long enough for that to show great improvement over what came before. Each decade raises the bar for plant quality, vigor, health and bloom production. Not an absolute, but in general breeding and selection show good improvements over time. Kim

  • melissa_thefarm
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingrid,
    Welcome to the crowd. I almost never kill roses on purpose, but the number I've unintentionally done in is pretty shocking. I was keeping a list of lost roses for a while, but it would be instructive, if painful, to keep it complete and up to date.
    Melissa

  • cath41
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I once read advise to never keep the tags of dead plants. I do not intentionally but every once in awhile I find them, the long gone, "once hads". It is a little shocking.

    Cath

  • mariannese
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've lost 59 roses over the last 18 years, for various reasons. I keep the list up-to-date because I'm learning a lot from it. I shall never again buy a rose from a food store (what you call "body bag roses" over there). I shall not rescue every found rose however needy because they usually behave very differently in good garden soil and don't fit in my garden. Or if I'm pressed for space the found roses end up in the worst corner of the garden and look worse than they did in their old home in the wayside ditch. The same with roses from friends as I've found there is often a good reason why they are given away. I do have some very good found roses and gift roses, too, but I mean to be more picky. I shall research colour and habit much more thoroughly in future and not fall for a picture. Whenever possible I shall buy directly from a nursery so I can see the plant in real life.

  • catsrose
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Like Melissa and others, I don't worry about performance. I have space to be Darwinian. I will also move a poor performer, which usually is sufficient to get better results. I have an Alliance Franco-Russ that I put in the first year I was here (Spring 05). I have moved it three times since then because even tho it never grew and once got weed-whacked down to two inches because it was so small I forgot it was there, it never died. I admire its courage and determination. Now it is finally happy.

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm a rose-mover like Catrose. Yesterday I moved Frederic Mistral closer to the house, his own-root is woody and vigorous like Dr. Huey, but it's a horizontal spread, rather than a deep vertical stick like Austins. The shallower root system explains why Romanticas are not as hardy as Austins in zone 5a. Other OWN-ROOT Romanticas I have: Liv Tyler, Bolero, Sweet Promise and Meilland Firefighter have shallow roots that knit across the surface ... I can't plant annuals next to them like I do with Austins.

    Own-root Romanticas thrive in wet & poor drainage clay with their shallower roots. All five Dr. Hueys perished in that wet clay bed. But if I have good drainage dry soil, I'll go with Romanticas grafted on Dr. Huey for better drought-resistant.

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My first experiment with soluble phosphorus was when I used MiracleGro MoreBloom Soluble Fertilizer with a high number for phosphorus. I got compliments from neighbors for my wave petunia having more blooms than leaves, so I overkilled on the dose.

    Accumulated phosphorus burns plants' foliage, so my wave petunia got brownish and I had to trash it 1 month before frost hit. Normally I recycle potting soil to the garden, but not with this wave petunia. There was very little soil and all fibrous roots ... it's like a stringy basket, which I had to put in Yard Waste. Subsequent years I used zero fertilizer, my petunias didn't explode in blooms, but they have green foliage until frost hits, and I was able to recycle the soil with their crumbling tiny roots.

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are a few, maybe a dozen. Your post inspires me to look and start digging. I need to do some culling. 'Tea Clipper' which I self-pegged last January gave a few more exquisite flowers, but a lot more blind shoots--five years, is that long enough? 'Fabulous' used to be so, but its declined seriously--crown gall or root competition? A pathetic own-root 'Gloire de Dijon'.

    I now consider--are they worth the expensive water?

    And what do to with the roses that are bloom machines and rust-free, but that have zero fragrance?

    A few other roses of woeful performance improved dramatically this year--'The Endeavour', for one. The difference was simply more (expensive) water.

  • jerijen
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Water really is the sticking point, Hoovb -- for us, as well as you.

    A very few particularly "thirsty" roses are worth the expense of extra water to make them happy. Otherwise, if they can't get along on the water we can afford to give them, they can be replaced by salvia, or lavender, or or or ...

    Jeri

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Water is a consideration for me too, not so much the cost and usage now, but the knowledge that it will get hotter and for a longer time in the coming years. After my spring order comes in I'll have over 80 roses and my goal is to bring that number down to the best 70 roses I can possibly raise over the coming years, or fewer, but definitely not more. If global warming warrants it, there may be a lot fewer than that. I can't imagine ever not having any; I think a part of me would die.

    Ingrid

  • roseseek
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Of course how many and how much water to use are personal decisions and choices, but to my mind, those which produce beautiful plants, foliage and color on the water levels I am comfortable paying for and can morally justify using, are welcome to stay. Those which are thirstier, demanding more water to perform or even live, are simply going to have to limp along until I can no longer stand the look of them, die out or (those I CAN remove) go off either to the landfill or other gardens. The same goes for companion plants.

    Even before restrictions and soaring costs, I simply couldn't justify spending large amounts for sufficient water to create "my own little piece of Connecticut in the desert". Until it is outlawed, or costs too much for most to afford, it's purely a moral and personal decision. To my value system, for me, it's immoral and plain stupid. Kim

  • jerijen
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No. And we wouldn't do that, either.

    But our Golden Celebration hedge is sufficiently valuable to us that we supplement it with warm-up water.

    There are still sources here that we can tap for "reclaimed" water. Things we CAN do, if it becomes necessary to take the trouble to do it -- and that sort of thing seems "moral" to me. Our neighbors across the Lane have a massive back lawn which is drenched with water and fertilizer, to the point where it all runs out and flows down the Lane.

    Now, that, to my mind, is an IMmoral use of water.

    Jeri

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm glad Kim mention about the east coast. I used to live in Connecticut. Over there we never water our garden, not even our tomato garden. Here in Chicagoland it gets up to 100 degrees, I have to water my tomato garden.

    Knock-out roses with large root systems (Dr. Huey plus own-root) ... those I never water. My goal is to make the root-system large, and the top growth small, so I won't have to water much. Digging Frederic Mistral up taught me a lesson: Gallon-size rootball can shrink in bad soil, versus tiny bands' roots that get huge in good potting soil like Annie Laurie and mini Blue Mist.

    Next year I'll put my 10 band-size roses into large pots, water with acid soluble fertilizer to grow the largest rootball possible, before putting down into the ground. I feel foolish giving tons of water to Eglantyne and Jacques Cartier, they gave 2 blooms per year ... and when I dug them up, their rootball shrank to band-size ... it's like trashing water into the ground and not getting any flowers.

  • kittymoonbeam
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I read that plant root size is determined by the amount of top growth and that if you cut the tops back hard, a big portion of the roots will die off. Is this true or false?

  • roseseek
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You aren't going to get the top growth without the roots. I've repeated read that reducing the top growth stimulates the plant to shed the corresponding root mass, but have never dug them up to check for myself. Who knows if that is more urban legend or not? I'd imagine it would be a pretty symbiotic relationship. Root mass definitely determines top growth. Perhaps top growth mass helps to also limit the root mass? I dunno. Kim

  • Ispahan Zone6a Chicago
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is such a fascinating discussion!

    It is so unusual to me to see how different roses can perform so differently even in the "same" climate. Strawberryhill above mentions the Austin rose 'Jude the Obscure' as a stingy performer on its own roots, yet I have had a very different experience. Growing it on its own roots is the only way to keep it in line and stop it from becoming a monster with flailing octopus arms.

    In my relatively sheltered lakeshore microclimate with sandy, alkaline soil, 'Jude the Obscure' has been quite vigorous and generous so far. I planted a one gallon own root from Chamblee's in very late October 2011, and that plant is now 5 feet tall x 3 feet wide and gave me four good flushes of blooms this season. One of my neighbors has two grafted specimens and they are enormous--about 8 ft. x 4 ft. with regular pruning to control the growth--with a rigid upright growth pattern. I am hoping mine will stay a bit daintier as it matures.

    Many years ago I purchased a band of 'Jude the Obscure' from Heirloom Roses when they first started selling it in the mid-late 1990s. I planted it in acid clay in Michigan, just "across the pond" from Chicago. That original band was transplanted to my parents' garden in the same general area before moving to Chicago 11 years ago and it is still alive and thriving. It receives absolutely no supplemental water, fertilizer, spraying or deadheading. My dad doesn't even weed it. In fact the only thing he does for it is remove the winter die back. Yet it still survives and puts on a great show every season. It was because of this plant that I wanted to try it again in my new garden.

    And yet in this microclimate, there are many roses that just never seem to look good. The 'Knock Out' roses fit firmly into this category. Many people plant them and they are featured in many public plantings in this area, but I have never seen one actually thrive. They will bloom nicely for a season or two, but they never seem to settle in or grow. Most dwindle away after a few years.

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, ispahan, for the info. on Jude does well in sandy, alkaline soil. Rugosa, known as "beach sand", does well for sandy soil but it hates my clay soil. Eglantyne has Rugosa heritage and does well GRAFTED for Robert Neil in his sandy and alkaline soil. As OWN-ROOT some roses are so wimpy that it takes a sandy soil to thrive ... that's why folks root cuttings in sand.

    Knock-outs bloom well in wet clay, but NOT as drought-tolerant as Kordes Flower Carpet landscape roses.

    I did some research this morning as to what fertilizer is best for BIGGEST ROOT GROWTH. It's high-phosphorus SOLUBLE fertilizer. The solid granular fertilizer is useless in alkaline condition, since phosphorus is tied up with calcium and magnesium at pH above 7 (per University of Colorado Extension info.) Also water-treatment plants add lime into tap water. Lime drives down both phosphorus and potassium .... so you'll get the non-blooming weak octopussy Austin canes if your water is alkaline.

    I'm annoyed that I can't find the ingredients for MiracleGro Bloom Booster, even on their website. But Schultz Bloom Plus at 10-60-10, highest in phosphorus with chelated iron, listed their ingredients with potassium phosphate (recommended for low-salt index). Schultz is sold at Menards, or can be ordered on-line pretty cheap. Below is a link to Schultz SOLUBLE high phosphorus fertilizer for biggest root growth and most blooms.

    High Phosphorus Soluble fertilizer is also used for seed starter and transplant, it promotes root growth. Alkaline tap water has 3 faults: 1) rose roots better in acidic water, pH of rain water is 5.6 2) water-treatment plant adds lime to tap water so pipes won't corrode ... lime is known to drive down phosphorus, necessary for root and bloom production 3) Lime also drives down potassium, necessary for strong stem and fight diseases, so one gets weak-neck & diseased plants.

    My roses bloomm best with rain water in spring, but become non-blooming weak-neck fools with tap water in summer. See link below for high-phosphorus Schultz Soluble Fertilizer.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Schultz Bloom Plus SOLUBLE fertilizer

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another cheap place for soluble fertilizer is Plant Marvel in Chicago Heights, IL, established 1922. Here's a partial description of their products. I no longer use Acid fertilizers, since they all are high in nitrogen so I'll get giant plants with no blooms like the time I dumped blood meal on marigolds to deter bunnies. Folks use 20-20-20 soluble fertilizer first on seedlings, then switch to high phosphorus on established plants. The below excerpt is from Plant Marvel website:

    Potash Special 10-20-30 PLUS Ideal for overcoming potash deficiency or for building up hardiness and tough fibrous qualities of stems and leaves. Promotes winter hardiness by helping to build a carbohydrate reserve.

    Blooming and Flowering Special 12-31-14 PLUS A great general purpose fertilizer for any blooming, fruiting or flowering plants. Also excellent as a starter fertilizer for seeds and seedlings.

    Super Start 12-45-10 PLUS A starter solution which promotes faster root development on seeds and transplants, without burning.

    Hi-K Special 13-0-44 PLUS Ideal for overcoming potash deficiency or for building up hardiness and fibrous qualities of stems and leaves.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Plant Marvel water-soluble fertilizers

  • Ispahan Zone6a Chicago
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Strawberryhill, you nailed it about the rugosas! In general, they thrive around here close to the lakeshore. They are often used in traffic median plantings throughout the city and grow into massive, floriferous, thorny beasts in spite of heat, drought and pollution.

  • daisyincrete Z10? 905feet/275 metres
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My Golden Celebration grew and bloomed well in it's first summer. However, the edges of the petals were burned black in the summer heat.
    I moved it just a few yards to where it only gets morning sun and just a tiny amount of afternoon sun.
    Since then, it has hardly bloomed at all.
    It is growing well and is very healthy, but no blooms.
    I am going to give it another year in that position and see how it goes.
    Daisy

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    THANK YOU, Daisy, much appreciated. You solved my Golden Cel. problem, it's in partial shade, and gets stingy as my house shades it in late fall. I'll experiment with hard pruning next year to see it improves. My Golden Cel. also bloomed better the 1st year than 2nd year. I dread moving it to full-sun since it's a waterhog.

    Another reason for starter fertilizer for seeds and transplant to be high in phosphorus, but low in nitrogen is: young plants are sensitive to salt-injury, and nitrogen fertilizer is highest in salt, next is potassium, and last is phosphorus, if it's in the potassium phosphate form like Schultz Bloom Plus fertilizer. I can't say the same for MiracleGro Bloom Booster nor Plant Marvel products, since they don't post their ingredients.

    Rugosa roses are known to hate fertilizer ... I tried that on Eglantyne and it got worse, but improved with blood meal. Blood meal is low-salt, high in nitrogen NPK of 12-0-0, and also has iron. Since alfalfa meal is very low in phosphorus, NPK of 2-1-2, it's good to use a high phosphorus fertilizer.

    My Mirandy band was 3 inches with 3 yellow leaves, pathetic. I called Burling and she explained that it rained a lot, and nitrogen got leached out ... she advised high nitrogen fertilizer. I tried high nitrogen soluble fertilizer, acid nitrogen pellets ... nothing worked! Then I tried blood meal with iron, and Mirandy got dark green immediately.

    To avoid salt-injury, it's best to use blood meal for nitrogen, and a potassium phosphate fertilizer for best root development. Here's a quote from the link below: " In addition to salt injury, some N compounds (such as UAN, urea, and ammonium thiosulfate) produce free ammonia, which can cause poor germination or seedling death. The best fertilizers for seed-row application have a low salt index, N compounds that do not produce free ammonia, and potassium phosphate rather than potassium chloride as the K source.--Fabi�n G. Fern�ndez

    Another University Extensionn cited that Urea is the worst form of nitrogen that one can use ... unfortunately it's cheap and is in all high nitrogen fertilizer. A soluble fertilizer, low-nitrogen, 2-20-20, has a low salt index of 7.2 ... versus a high ammonium nitrate, and urea with a salt index of 71.1.

    With regard to Kittymoonbean question, "if you cut the tops back hard, a big portion of the roots will die off. Is this true or false?" The answer is it depends if the particular root can unlock phosphorus tie-up for root growth: I chopped Scepter'd Isle, Evelyn, and Charles Darwin down to 1' x 1' in August. Evelyn bloomed well late fall, and still have all green leaves, despite many nights in low 20's. A good rootball means blooming and good winter survival. The answer to "hard pruning means less root?" is "No" for my zone 5a ... since most roses, except Austins, are hard-pruned by the winter to the crown, but give TONS-OF-BLOOMS in spring, so loaded that you can't see leaves at the rose park. They use high phosphorus fertilizer for biggest rootball and most blooming.

    I moved both Scepter'd Isle and Charles Darwin last month. Scepter'd Isle is a beast to dig up, huge root. Charles Darwin root shrank in my soil, that one can't unlock the phosphorus in alkaline clay, and has to be helped with soluble phosphorus fertilizer.

    Here is a link that might be useful: How much salt is in the fertilizer? Salt-index table.

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I moved Crown Princess Magareta on Thanksgiving, since a person in the English Roses Forum informed me that it blooms better in full sun. Mine is a huge bush, with 6 feet long branches... but when I dug up, the rootball is small, pathethic. That's why it gave me only 5 blooms as 1st-year own-root. The soil there isn't bad, it's another one that needs help with soluble phosphorus.

    My alkaline clay soil is tested by EarthCo. to be deficient in both phosphorus and potassium. I use horse manure, high in potassium, that solved the weak stem and weak neck problem. I'll try SOLUBLE high phosphorus on stingy Austins next year.

    Alameda in East Texas wrote this about her Graham Thomas refusal to bloom: "I have tried cutting it in half this summer, it put back out taller canes with no blooms in sight. I asked Chamblees Rose Nursery what I could do - they suggested I hit it with Carl Pool BR 61 a little stronger than directions say. Knowing it was fall and I should begin to stop fertilizing, I did it anyway.... I am estatic to see 3 canes with multiple buds."

    Carl Pool BR 61 is a soluble fertilizer very high in phosphorus, with NPK of 9-58-8. The problem with hard pruning in dry climate? It's lies in watering with TAP-WATER high in lime, or calcium hydroxide, which binds with phosphorus in the soil, making it unavailable. Zone 5a bushes that pruned by winter to the crown gets melted snow and spring rain (pH 5.6), rather than alkaline tap water that inhibits rooth growth.

    I checked the ingredients of a commercial mix to stimulate root growth, used in transplant: it has vitamin B1 (thiamine), Vitamin C (ascorbic acid), plus Iron, with pH acidic at 6 to 6.4. Willow water has salicylic acid to stimulate rooth growth. I accidentally rooted Radio Times branches last year when I threw willow branches on top for winter-protection.

    I had a hard time making brocolli sprouts and bean sprouts from seeds like my Mom ... she has neutral tap water. Mine is alkaline well-water, so I bought Citric Acid sold at the health food store, used for sprouting. It's $10 for a big bottle, I also use it to root rose cuttings. Annie Laurie Mcdowell rootball grew bigger than 2-gallon since I watered her with used-lemon, has vitamin C to stimulate root growth.

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay, one less. 'Tea Clipper' is finally in the garbage. Made him walk the plank for not blooming.

  • jerijen
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It may be wildly different elsewhere, but here on the SoCal coast, 'Golden Celebration' did not handle pruning well at all. A cut cane was a cankered cane was a dead cane.

    We now leave it pretty much alone, but for regular deadheading, and it flourishes in 1/2-Day (morning) sun.

    Jeri
    Coastal Ventura Co., SoCal

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    THANK YOU, JERI - I appreciate that info. very much. Since you have sandy alkaline soil, and Golden Cel. does well for you ... it's easy for me to dig it up in spring and loosen up the soil with coarse sand. Then I'll use soluble fertilizer high in phosphorus. Another person said that his Golden Cel. grafted on Dr. Huey does better than own-root, so I suspect that my own-root Golden Cel. is wimpy and doesn't like my clay. It's 100% clean as own-root, zero blackspots in partial shade with strong canes, thanks to potassium from the horse manure mulch.

    In the Old Heirloom Rose blog on pruning roses, the blogger uses Elmer glue to seal pruned canes so borers won't get it. I cut roses for the vase every day. At first I got black canker stem where I chop the flower off, then I started cleaning my scissor with 90% alcohol before cutting roses for the vase, that solved the problem. I started doing that with my big loppers for pruning, wiping the blade off with 90% alcohol before pruning, and letting it sun-dried after pruning.

  • sherryocala
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Strawberry, what do you think of this monopotassium phosphate in the link below? I'm about to buy it, I think, to use now since it has no nitrogen to cause new growth that will get frozen out soon. What do you think? What concentration would you use? The full one-teaspoon per the directions? Half-dose? Would you do a soil drench? My native soil is cement-like, grayish compacted sand with a pH in the low 7's with streaks of white clay that tests in the high 6's for pH and very low nitrogen. I use sulfur in the bottom of my holes beyond the amended area, figuring it will leach lower and make the unamended soil more hospitable to roots. I do have earthworms in my almost black amended soil.

    Sherry

    Here is a link that might be useful: Water soluble monopotassium phosphate

  • jerijen
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FWIW:

    We have 5-6 plants of 'Golden Celebration.'

    One is on Multiflora. It came from Hortico, is huge, and is sometimes chlorotic.

    4-5 are on Dr. Huey. They are almost certainly virused, but they show no signs of that. They are big, and growing bigger, but have not, yet, quite matched the original one from Hortico.

    1 is on its own roots. It was planted much later than the others, and lags behind them, but this past year it put out some really substantial growth and long canes. It has never been pruned, (only deadheaded) and never will be.

    As the plants grow on, the last of the old, truncated, cankered canes is disappearing, and the remaining growth is long, arching, and I suppose could be restrained to a trellis. Left alone, they provide a superb privacy screen, and bloom well on laterals along the canes.

    This image was made a few years back, and the roses are bigger, now.

    {{gwi:234899}}

    Jeri

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Jeri, for that great pic. of your Golden Cel. hedge, and the info. on what they are grafted on. Kim Rupert made a good point about NOT pruning in warm climate versus pruning in less-sun climate. In my 4 seasons, my husband set the lawn-mower blade to cut higher, so grass stay tall to shade their own roots in sunny spring and hot summer. In gloomy and rainy fall, he sets the blade lower to cut the grass really short, that way they are exposed to sun, thus less mushroom growing.

    Hi Sherri: Thank you for the link, that's a great product Monopotassium phosphate, with 52.2% phosphorus, necessary for blooms and root growth, plus 34.6% potassium, necessary to fight diseases and strong stems. It also has a very low salt-index of 8.4. I'm interested in that stuff myself. High phosphorus is known to fry plants' foliage, such as Alaska high-phosporus soluble fish fertilizer. I would use only 1/2 dosage ... since you have sandy soil, it would leach out readily and waste any high dose. Frequent and low-dose fertilization is recommended for sandy soil.

    As to nitrogen and iron for growing season, blood meal at NPK of 12-0-0 would provide instant growth without the high salt-index of chemical nitrogen fertilizers such as urea and ammonium nitrate, both are toxic to young seedlings. Thank you, Sherri, for that link.

  • lbuzzell
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeri and Kim - we put in a graywater system this year and are very pleased with it! It's very simple and a handyman did it. The water from our laundry sink goes into a pipe outside that then goes into a hose that we move around the yard. There's a handle that can shut off the graywater and send it into the sewer as usual, too. And of course we now use special laundry soap (Oasis is a good brand)- and much less of it - for the clothes, which seem to get just as clean as ever. We have lots of fruit trees plus roses so the graywater is a necessity. And we grow everything with "toughlove" witholding water in the spring after the rain to force roots to follow the water downwards.
    Linda

  • lbuzzell
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the picture of Golden Celebration, Jeri. That rose does great for us as well, although it does get some blackspot, which is weird in our area.

  • strawchicago z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Linda (lbuzzell) for the info. of using laundry water. An old man I know, a mechanical engineer, piped both dishwasher water and laundry water to his veges and rose gardens .... they look great. Question: Is your Golden Cel. grafted on Dr. Huey? I begin to suspect that my own-root Golden Cel. is 100% clean, not a trace of BS in our wet & gloomy fall because: water-hogs are best own-roots so they can get all the water they want. Dr. Huey thrives in dry clay and hot climate .... his roots can't deliver the water the hogs want. It's incompatible goals.

  • lbuzzell
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Strawberryhill, our oldest Golden Cel that is doing great is probably on Dr. H but we also have a cutting on its own roots that seems to be fine as well. If Dr. H is good at breaking through clay and getting down to the last drops of water below, as some say, then it should be giving plenty of water to the Golden Cel. We have no irrigation and just hand water when the roses look like they need it, and so far so good...

  • erin1000
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,
    I am very interested to read about how many roses have died, or do not produce in your established gardens for I just do not have the funds for many purchases required to replant until I find what works for me here in a very challenging zone and soil.(Harsh snow-bare winters and hot humid summers plus compacted,sandy alkaline soil.

    I have a question for Strawberryhill: Don't you worry about losing beneficial microbes with the constant digging and the chemical fertilizers that reputedly kill them or send them elsewhere? Those fungal root systems work much better in clay than in my sandy soil and are so excellent at pulling moisture from the soil further than roots alone can grow. I just wondered your take on that bit of science?

    I appreciate the information you supply.

    I am seriously considering following your example with nursing roots on own root bands in pots for a few years because this is something I can begin now in a fenced nursery area while waiting for the rose garden hedges to grow, and giving time for my soil amendments to season. With my sandy soil, a good root system is pretty crucial.

    Do you put them on the ground or "plant" the pots? What about winter protection? Thanks for sharing,

    Erin

  • Campanula UK Z8
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ha, probably heaps of them. However, unless I really run out of space, I tend to leave the C and D roses (and other plants) alone to get on with their slightly rubbish lives. After all, without the duffers, how could we define the stars?
    So, off the top of my head, the 3 rennaissance roses are fairly dire, along with a badly behaved Jaques Cartier (I have had this rose for years and despite total neglect, it slumbers on). Then there is a somewhat iffy Jacqueline du Pre -although when it does bloom well, it looks outstanding.....for a week or so. A little Harkness climber, Penny Lane, does OK(ish) but just looks wrong while Buff Beauty has never lived up to the performance of other HMs in my allotment. Finally, Crapuscule - I only bought this for the name so there's a lesson to be learned - a fairly nasty looking, leafy untidy mess.
    But hey, compared to the many, many perennials and shrubs (from various salvias, hugely expensive echinaceas, daphnes, withchazels, cercis, verbascums, geums, hostas, heucheras.....and on and on... which have been sown, grown and discarded over the years, my roses rarely actually die and are never removed after I have paid good money for them - unless they are a disease sump.
    Anyway, I have a lot of non-performing days myself and am inclined to be forgiving of less than stellar performances from my plants.....and failing that, I can always leave my specs at home when everything looks great through misty eyes.

  • rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What an interesting and informative thread. Strawberry, I am particularly interested in your assertion that pine mulch is useful for holding water.

    I have a rose bed in my front yard that is in direct sun all day. It also sits on the highest site in the yard and is pretty much sand and gravel underneath. I dug the bed 11 years ago and completely filled it with triple mix, which is equal parts soil, peat and manure, to 24 inches. I planted 18 roses as well as perenials such as Delphiniums and Salvias in the bed.

    That bed was a show stopper for the first nine years when there was lots of rain, including heavy thunderstorms each summer. People would frequently stop to smell the roses and tell me how much they enjoyed walking by that bed. Well the last two summers have been very hot and record breaking dry. Last summer was an official drought with only three days of precipitation between June and September. Many of the roses died outright, the rest declined to mere sticks barely hanging on in spite of my daily watering which was arduous, expensive and obviously a waste of water. When I dug up a couple of the dead roses in late summer I noted that the peat fibres and soil were bone dry, even with regular watering. The roses that succumbed were varieties that had not done well even in cooler years.

    The hot sun was litterally baking the surface of the bed in spite of heavy surface mulch. The daily dose of water was evaporating from the surface and obviously percolating right through the topsoil, all 2 feet of it, and draining through the gravel below.

    I had already decided to dig the whole thing up this spring and put in new triple mix and manure. With your insite into composted pine mulch and its water retaining properties, I think I will add a good portion of that as well.

    As gardeners, we constantly must adapt to changing conditions. The climate in my garden has changed drastically in the past two years, who knows if the change is permanent or an anomally. Hopefully, I can find a way to increase the water holding capacity in that bed and restore it to its former health and glory. Perhaps a good dose of composted pine mulch and composted manure layered deep on the bottom of the bed will help.

    Good thread Ingrid. Thanks for the discussion everyone.

    Cheeers, Rick

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Myth of Pretty Mulch - Washington State Universtiy

  • cath41
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rick,

    I read the article and beg to differ. When I used hardwood mulch the beds developed huge colonies of mushrooms of several different kinds, not attractive and almost certainly not healthy for the roses and other plants in the beds. Some ground covers which died back extensively have taken nearly 10 years to almost recover. I began to wonder whether the hardwood mulch was from trees that were cut down because they were diseased. In any case, I have been very satisfied with pine bark mulch nuggets. I usually get the small size these days.

    Our soil is near neutral and the water is alkaline so the pine bark, contributing acidity, may have a beneficial effect on pH. We also have very stiff clay with shifting shade and sun over most beds so drying out is not as constant a factor as it may be for you.

    Cath

  • mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Peat moss is EEEVVVIIILLL!!!

    Now that you know this, you can avoid it. I would not add peat to any rose bed because it does have major water management issues.

  • lbuzzell
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that peat moss is evil! In addition to the environmental damage done through the harvesting, it's a pain when added to potting mix or soil. One nursery owner near us adds it to the roses he pots up and I've had to hose all the soiil off the roots and replant from scratch to get rid of it. Once it dries out, you can never gt it wet again - it's almost water repellent.

  • roseseek
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Peat IS water repellant. You have to actually squeeze water into it for it to absorb in, like hydrating a new sponge. Be sure to wear rubber gloves while doing it to prevent contracting the bacteria it can carry. The only things I've used peat for are azaleas, camellias and gardenias in this rotten, alkaline soil. As long as I saturate the peat, pack the root balls in it in large planting holes, then thoroughly encase it in the native soil with a good mulch and never allow it to completely dry out, it permits these acid lovers to be grown here for many years without issue. Otherwise, peat is inappropriate here. Kim

  • rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Things, I learned on the internet today: "peat moss is evil!!", L.O.L.

    It has taken me almost thirty years of gardening and two drought years to learn that lesson, because in a wet climate like the Fraser Valley of B. C., where I'm from, it is widely used as a soil ammendment. Makes sense, there are huge peat bogs there and acid soil loving species such as Rhodo's, Azaleas and Cammelias grow like weeds there, usually in peat ammended soil.

    I guess this puts paid to the triple mix as well, since it contains one third peat. It is interesting that Triple Mix is ubiquitous as a garden soil ammendment here in Eastern Ontario, The summers here normally have lots of rain fall and there are hundreds of lakes and marshes in my area. But the last two summers have litterally been desert like for heat and lack of rain. So I shall try composted pine mulch, home made compost and manure mixed with soil for my hot dry front rose bed this spring.

    Thank you M.G., Ibuzzell and Kim for the excellent advice. I feel like a complete gardening beginner right now. But then lessons in humility are good things, especially when you are beginning to think you know what you are doing.

    Cheers, Rick

  • roseseek
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome Rick! In many ways, even though you've gardened right there for years, your climate has changed (hopefully for a very short term!) enough that you are a "beginner" in a new climate. Almost as much as if you'd physically moved to a drier, hotter area. It would be the same for me here if we were to suddenly lose the heat extremes and actually get lots of rain. Experience with a fairly constant climate types does teach you what you're doing. No "humility" required. The weather is doing what Ralph Moore said about roses, "Just about the time you think you know the rules, the rose changes them!" Only now, it's the climate doing the changing. Good luck on your accommodations to the changes. May they work much better than hoped! Kim