Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
jerome_gw

Pruning: Teas - when to remove canes to the base.

jerome
12 years ago

Hi all. Would some people share with me what you do to rejuvenate Tea roses and when to take canes down to the base? I ask for the following reasons:

Baronne Henriette de Snoy was getting to be an ugly shape and unwieldy, I removed a basal cane in the hopes of getting it to make new breaks and "fill out" - it didn't, and I wonder if it ever will.

Lady Hillingdon had me scared after the Baronne Henriette experience, so I've just given her the lightest of shapings these past 7 years (this is my oldest Tea) and it has gotten uglier each year, more sparse looking, senescent wood, poor bloooming cycles. This year I finally said, "if you can't take this, you're outta here!" and pruned it very harshly. Frankly if it doesn't recover, I won't shed a tear: it was lovely from about 2005-2008, but has been ghastly ever since.

Talk to me folks...

Jerome

Comments (49)

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This may not be helpful -- I don't remove any canes from Teas other than dead wood.

    But, FWIW, I find that reducing the LENGTH of a cane does not work. They never seem later to produce anything other than an ugly "candelabra" of weak growth. It seems more effective, therefore, IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE to remove a cane in its entirety, or leave it alone.

    Jeri
    Other Folks Mileage May Vary

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's been my experience, too, Jeri. Teas want to be huge bushes, full of thick, old canes with new growth at the tops. It's just their nature in this climate. Planting other, shorter, fuller types in front of them covers their bare knees better than pruning to encourage new basals. When that must be done, here, it seems best to do it in early spring after the coldest weather has finished and accompany it with a good feeding and plenty of water, appropriate for the drainage. New basals can be sometimes encouraged from old, woody plants, but it often requires a very good supply of water, nutrients and milder, warmer temperatures, including warmer nights. They're usually not cooperative when nights are in the fifties or below. I've found feeding with a combination of organic and inorganic fertilizer most successful so the plant is fed NOW, with the organics utilized by the soil organisms to provide nutrients for the plants later. The nitrogen in the inorganics feed the organisms now to jump-start them in digesting the organics, without them having to take it away from the plants until the bacteria produce more than they need.

    If you've wandered through the China and Tea bed at The Huntington (when it was decent), you'd notice how all the mature Teas were bare at the bases with all the foliage and flowering occurring at their tops. It's just the nature of the beast. Kim

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For what it's worth, I decided against planting Baronne Henriette de Snoy after reading comments on this forum that it tends to have awkward growth. I don't think it was anything you did wrong.

    My Lady H is not as old as yours. So far I have not seen this problem. It is gorgeous in Mottisfont, so it can be managed successfully. Jon is not on the forum as frequently as he used to be, so he may not see this thread; but he would know how they manage it there.

    Rosefolly

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mottisfont's climate and conditions are so different from the South end of Southern California -- it might not be relevant.

    If one doesn't want to add smaller roses in front (hoping they will STAY small) I've found that dwarf lavenders do a good fill-in job. Not the huge true English Lavender, but dwarf varieties such as Munstead (which is deleriously happy here) or Thumbelina. They make handsome companions to Teas, and the bees really enjoy them.

    And thank you, Kim, for mentioning that the best time to prune these guys (at least in SoCal) is NOT in winter, but in late-spring/early-summer. They tolerate it best then.

    Jeri

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gorgeous, Olga! Don't fix a thing, it ain't broken! Kim

  • jerome
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Olga...you're the reason I got Lady Hillingdon. Yours is beautiful. You would not believe mine was the same species. But what you describe is exactly what I did to mine last month. I took out all the older canes completely and shortened what was left by about 1/3. We'll see what happens. If it's not a lot better this year, it's outta here - not a rose for my climate. There are other Teas that are amazing here for me: Mrs. B.R. Cant; Souvenir de Pierre Notting; Mme Berkeley; William R. Smith; Marie van Houtte; Mrs. Dudley Cross and others too numerous to name....Miss Atwood; Etoile de Lyon; Soncy...If the Hillingdon doesn't work out, I won't be sad.

  • jardineratx
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have had "zero" success hard-pruning and/or frequent pruning of any of my teas, hybrid musks, chinas or noisettes. In each case the hard pruning has provided me with either an awkward looking shrub, or diminished vigor...usually both. My Safrano almost vocalized displeasure after cutting several canes back a couple of years in a row. It took 3 years for my Cornelia to rebound from a hard pruning and my old blush is still sulking after 2 full years. Hard pruning of Penelope three years in a row almost left it so weak and ugly I shovel pruned it. Don't know if it's my method of pruning or the location of my garden, but that has been my experience. Unfortunately, shortly after these pruning sessions the roses seemed to respond, but it was always a false start. After a few weeks or months I saw they actually regressed.
    Molly

  • sherryocala
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Molly, I thought so, too, with my Le Vesuve and Louis Philippe (not a Tea but similar). I don't think I'll do them again, but Mrs B R Cant didn't mind a bit being really chopped. It was a "fill out or go" move on my part. She's on Fortuniana so her vigor may be even more than an own-root MBRC.

    Sherry

    Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

  • jon_in_wessex
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gee, thanks for the advice, Mrs Jennings - I remember why I no longer post here.

  • olga_6b
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Molly, when you say hard prune, what do you mean by that. I don't think taking 1/4 cane off is hard pruning. Just curious.
    Olga

  • jardineratx
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Olga, my version of hard pruning on these plants was shortening most of the canes by 1/3 to 1/2. Perhaps if I had shortened only a few of the canes or cut back the canes by only a few inches I would have had better results. In each case I was trying to reduce the overall height and width of the rose bush, thinking that I would end up with a fuller, more robust plant. I have had good results just cutting several inches off when I deadhead as that does not cause awkward branching of the canes.
    Molly

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, Jon, I wouldn't even begin to advise someone on caring for Teas in England -- conditions are just too different.

    I only know how to grow them in MY conditions.
    But of course, if you've gardened in Southern California, I stand corrected.

    Jeri

  • sammy zone 7 Tulsa
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jon, that isn't polite. Jeri makes it clear that she is giving her opinion for her location. I welcome her opinion, and consider it expertise.

    I see nothing that she wrote that deserved such disrespect.

    Sammy

  • harborrose_pnw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a thread I clipped from about four years ago that discusses rejuvenating a rose. It has input from Jon, Olga, Cass and Ann and several other really excellent gardeners. Great reading.

    Here is a link that might be useful: When Roses Begin to Age thread

  • cemeteryrose
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks so much for posting that thread. It makes me sad to realize how recently we had people like Cass and Jon posting regularly, and how much richer we were for their experience.

    Cass pruned a Mme Joseph Schwartz for us in the cemetery last year, and it has never been more beautiful. She didn't cut out many canes, but she did remove a lot of twiggy growth (which I thought was a no-no) and shortened it about 1/4, cutting down to a lateral. Not a hard pruning by any means but way more than I usually advocate. This was done in mid-January in Sacramento, which gets some winter chill.

    The cemetery's Lady Hillingdon is not looking good, and I think it needs a similar treatment. When you let canes get long and unproductive at the base and middle, the rose tends to flop when weighted down by flowers. Based on Cass' pruning of Mme Joseph Schwartz, there is an alternative.

    In that thread, by the way, people use the term "hard pruning." I do not consider shortening a rose by 1/3 to 1/4 to be hard pruning, nor do I consider removing a few old unproductive basals to be that. "Hard pruning" is cutting the rose to knee high and leaving just a few canes.

    I still have much to learn about pruning.
    Anita

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Anita, I've always considered a "hard prune" to be removing more than half of the plant, which I very seldom do unless that's what the owner wants. I've always avoided engaging in "pruning demonstrations" because they have been, for the most part, exhibition pruning based and that is not what I "learned" from the roses as what the majority wanted. When asked how I did it, I've begun with asking what was desired from the plant, fewer, larger blooms with a shorter productive life, or larger masses of smaller flowers over a significantly longer life. I honestly can't remember anyone choosing the former. Cleaning out the very twiggy growth is pretty much standard, in relation to the other growth available. Unless the plant was closely aligned with a type which burned or froze to the ground annually, I resisted taking it that far unless it was a "kill or cure" situation. By that time, I'm usually ready for the blamed thing to just die anyway so something else happier can be put in its place. Kim

  • harborrose_pnw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I watched again the "Pruning Shrub Roses and The Glory of Mottisfont" dvd recently which demonstrates the method David Stone uses at Mottisfont. This is a dvd which was made from the workshop Ashdown Roses sponsored before its untimely and much-regretted demise. The pruning is exactly what Olga has described. Mr. Stone pruned a moss rose as well as Dr. Grill, a tea, using exactly the same method, as far as I can tell. He took out old, unproductive basal canes and trimmed it back about a third, from about 6 feet to about 4. I'm told the next year it did splendidly.

    I don't know if the dvd is still available, but it's worth contacting Paul Zimmerman to see.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gean, have you pruned old azaleas before? I encountered several a few years ago which were enormous and had grown in a protected place here where they were actually quite happy. I didn't take much off them, as I wouldn't an older Tea plant, and they responded magnificently as old Tea bushes have to similar treatment. If you know what I mean about the old azalea bushes and how to clean them up, it may give you a better idea what to do with Teas and older plants of Tea-like earlier HTs. Kim

  • harborrose_pnw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hi, Kim! Hard pruning is what you'd do to a hybrid tea, taking it down to 18 inches, isn't that right?

    Azaleas bloom on old wood; if you pruned them too much at any one time, I think they'd go into shock. If you wanted to cut old overgrown azaleas to control their size substanially, wouldn't you do it over several years?

    Old tea roses are everblooming and bloom on new wood - But they build up a structure of old wood which they have to have. But canes still get old and need to be taken out, don't they?

    I read a thread about Jackie's ancient Duchesse de Brabant - I think it was dying. She took out the dead canes and cut it back and it grew back.

    I do think all the various opinions need to be heard, the results viewed, circumstances thought about. I don't like Jon's rudeness, but maybe he doesn't feel well right now. We can all put up with each other, can't we?

    I also think this is an issue that's caused so many problems, that if we're going to discuss it, lots of information and viewpoints need to be put on the table. Otherwise we might as well leave because nothing of value will be talked about.

    But as Jerome has said, he's cut it back, and he's waiting to see what happens. One thing I have read in another place is that many tea roses had to be cut back or hard pruned in order to be moved. The next year they did not bloom, but the year after that they did beautifully.

    Besides, if Jerome's Lady Hillingdon were doing well without pruning, he wouldn't have done anything to it. People that are loath to prune their teas are like that because the roses are doing fine. It's when they aren't doing fine, that problems occur. And as he says, if it doesn't do well, he'll remove it without any sadness. Maybe it doesn't like his climate. I don't really know. I'm just trying to provide more information from other places because I like to think about things.

    In the final analysis, I really believe that the don't cut and the cut people are actually saying much the same thing. If you'll go back to the rejuvenating thread I posted, you'll find Regina in the PNW talking about rejuvenating an old tea in northern California. What she describes is followed by Jeri agreeing. with what Regina's just said. Regina said what David and Olga said. I think that semantics is in play in all the disagreement. I hate that.

    I don't know why Molly's roses that she pruned didn't respond well. I don't know what she did and why she did it. Did the drought and heat this summer in Texas play a part? Did she cut back too much so it was much like hard pruning? Is she trying to control the size of a 12 foot noisette so it will stay 4 feet? I don't know. Molly has to figure out what she did. She's a smart lady, and she'll figure it out for her own garden. That's what we all have to do, figure it out, based on what our goals and tastes are. That's the fun of gardening. Don't you thinK?

    To borrow Lyn's phrase, Smiles! Your friend, Gean

  • jon_in_wessex
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For the record - my objection was to being told an answer I might give to Rosefolly's question would be irrelevant - before I had even posted anything!

    If exasperation comes across as rudeness - you have my apologies.

  • jardineratx
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gean, I absolutely agree with you when you suggest that different viewpoints should be discussed regarding this subject...that's the only way to expand our knowledge regarding the care of old garden roses.
    I believe that in my case the problem was not so much the degree to which I pruned, but rather that it was repeated pruning (over a couple of years) that diminished the vigor of my pruned roses. We have a very long growing season here in southeast Texas and it was tempting for me to trim back in the spring, then again in late summer,which may have been overwhelming and difficult for the cut canes. I simply don't know, but that is my guess in my particular experience with my garden roses.
    Molly

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Gean, no, that isn't what "I" would do to a HT, but it is what many subject them to. Yes, azaleas (except for the new "repeating" ones) flower on old wood and Teas flower on new. What I was referring to is not amputating huge amounts of old wood at one time, but doing it more gradually, over a period of several years so you don't shock the plant to death by removing all that stored energy. Canes of both eventually might need removal, but the idea is the same. Only remove what is obviously dead or too diseased to correct, taking the hottest fire first and allowing the plant to recover from "surgery" over time before attempting more.

    I'm not saying it isn't possible for an old Tea to eventually recover from "exhibition pruning", but from observation in this climate, IF it does, it takes a very long time, measured in years. That may, or may not, vary by climate. I can only speak from experience in the ones in which I've witnessed performance. It's also going to depend upon the vigor of the particular variety and of the specific plant of that variety, as well as the culture under which it's grown.

    Yes, I agree that the heat and drought experienced in Texas and other hard hit areas played a huge role in performance. Extreme stresses of any kind, whether it's too little water with too much heat, or the reverse, will stress organisms to the point of death. We experienced many old, established trees here in California dying from too much rain several years ago. Both irrigated, planted ones as well as those which volunteered in our "forests" (I know, southern California has 'trees'?) If Molly's roses were sufficiently weakened by drought and heat, it may well take them several seasons to replace what's been taken from them (both resources cooked out of them, utilized by them to remain alive as well as those removed from them), if at all. I would imagine there are many in those areas which are severely sun scalded, which is something we've always contended with here in the desert south west. It hits every type of plant and gets worse when ground water and irrigation aren't sufficient, as well as when weather patterns provide increased intensities of heat and light. It's so common here, even insects have evolved to make use of the problem. Pacific Flat Head Apple Borers are very opportunistic with sun scald and can attack many different types of plants, including roses. I experienced many losses from them until our State Entomologist, Baldo Villegas, identified the problem for me. Perhaps Molly's roses have suffered enough sun scald to prevent them from recovering? It's definitely possible.

    Because of the wide variety of climates encountered on the forums, the best any of us can do is help make generalizations. Such as, in general, many more modern HTs will endure and even seem to flourish with the hard, exhibition type pruning, while most Teas will sulk and even die. More Tea-like moderns, such as older HTs and moderns like Austin's Dove, will generally do similarly. Add a more extreme climate or culture style and the effects can be greatly exacerbated. Conversely, set the problem in a milder, more green house like climate and the effects may even be pretty much negated.

    If you think about the type of wood produced by the type of rose, all of this becomes a lot easier to understand intuitively. Anything which replaces wood quickly should be able to endure harder pruning. Think vigorous HTs, floribundas, minis, shrubs which grow copious quantities of wood rather quickly. These types are going to need more pruning to encourage stronger new growth in order to maintain juvenility of the plant and keep them productive. Otherwise, they become twiggy, dense thickets of congestion rather quickly

    Contrast that with types which don't throw yards of new growth very quickly, like many Teas and other OGR types. They depend upon the older, thicker wood not only for physical framework, but as pantries for stored resources. You can chain saw Queen Elizabeth to the ground every year and she explodes back with more canes than you'll know what to do with. She also benefits from removal of more of the older, thicker wood periodically to rejuvenate her so she remains the blooming machine you expect of her. She produces much shorter lived wood which requires more frequent replacement or it becomes too geriatric and dies. Do that to Rosette Delizy and you'll have much die back and dead stumps with much more disease and many fewer flowers than you'd expect. Do it to Dove and you'll flat out kill it. Prune Iceberg that way and you'll have fewer blooms with more black spot (here) but it will defy you to keep it within bounds due to its vigor. We need to watch how quickly and in what quantity the plants produce growth and take many cues from it. That's what's meant by "thinking like the rose". They'll often tell you when, where and how much they want pruned as well as NEED pruned. When is going to vary tremendously from one place to the next. How much may vary, also, but the generalization is, not as much as stronger, faster growers will endure.

    Silver Moon will grow many yards here each year. You can whack the devil out of it and not get much bloom the next year, but it rebounds defiantly with many more yards of growth after such treatment. The plant has the vigor. Small, rooted cuttings will often throw many feet of growth quite quickly. Small, rooted Teas and some Chinas seem to sit forever as if they don't intend to grow, even when given the best of everything. Why should we think those are going to endure hard pruning when they were slow to start and develop in the first place? They just don't replace growth as vigorously as other types. Once established, mature and happy, they may suffer the indignities of harder pruning and recover, but that's a risk. Kim

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As we were heading out to class, I thought of one thing I had not said, that I should -- since this is a mistake I've made.

    If you are going to remove whole older basal canes, PLEASE -- before cutting, follow the cane all the way to the top, and SEE WHAT IS UP THERE.

    With Teas and Chinas, growth that looks old, and grey, and worthless toward the bottom may in fact be supporting a fanfare of vigorous growth, further up in the canopy of the plant. It's dispiriting to make a cut, and find that you've inadvertently removed the "good stuff."

    So, this is a mistake I've made, along the way, which you don't need to repeat. :-)

    Just Sayin' . . .
    Jeri

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Very good point, Jeri, thank you! I've done the same thing with moderns and climbers. Kim

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lady Hillingdon has been a dog for me in two different gardens which is why I grow Cl. Lady Hillingdon - quite a different kettle of fish. I haven't done much to my teas except to shorten them where they impinge on each other and so far it has worked very well. The only rose I've cut severely was Mutabilis when it began to look very bad. I subsequently discovered a gopher hole at its base so I'm very happy I pruned it. It bounced back almost immediately and is very large and handsome now; I'm sure it will grow even more when the weather is warmer. At the same time, I would not have the courage to do this to any of my tea roses and also don't see the need. If any of them start to deteriorate, I might consider cutting out some of the oldest canes if the roses have many canes, and then would water lavishly and give it a good dose of alfalfa meal.

    Ingrid

  • jerome
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks all for the input. I love you all. That link to another thread on pruning was most helpful. I think I did the right thing with Lady Hillingdon. I am also going to water her a lot more this season and see if that helps. The canes I took out were horrible from the bottom up, so we'll see it it'll be rejuvenated for me. It could be a gopher problem (we have so many of them) or a lack of water problem (it is a very large plant). I will keep you posted.

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gean, thanks for reminding me about the Mottisfont/Zimmerman DVD. I was lucky enough to be present at David Stone's original talk and demonstration in South Carolina. It was superb. I have the DVD, and plan to contact Paul Zimmerman. I'm giving a talk on rose pruning next month, and will include it on my resource list if it is still available for purchase.

    Rosefolly

  • mendocino_rose
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have to admit that pruning teas confuses me. One year nature pruned my Susan Louise in a way I never would have dreamed of. It was a one cane awkward thing. The snow broke it in half. It's been beautiful and full ever since.
    Gean thanks for posting that thread about roses aging. many of my roses are over 12 years old. I have some thinking to do.

  • riku
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Didn't the California Chemist once do a great writeup on pruning teas, could of swore Cass did ... does she still post here?

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BTW, I checked with Paul Zimmerman. The David Stone/Mottisfont pruning demonstration DVD has sold out. Those of us who have it are fortunate. I had been planning to recommend it at a future talk, but I won't now.

    Rosefolly

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a link to Cass's take on pruning teas. As she clearly states, there are many approaches that work. This is the method that works best for her. Based on her pictures, I would say that she is definitely on to something good.

    Rosefolly

    Here is a link that might be useful: Cass Bernstein's Tea Pruning Page

  • seil zone 6b MI
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am enjoying reading ALL of the opinions here. Even ones from other zones often have very basic info or history that is good to know for everyone. And I like to know how and why things do what they do in different places. It's all useful information. But you have to filter it for your specific climate when you go to use it. And even then it's still pretty much try it and see. What grows great on my block may hate the next because there is a different wind or amount of sun or drainage it gets. It's all trial and error and find what works for you in that specific spot.

    I will second Jeri's advice about following the cane to the top. I've made this mistake before on several different kinds of OGRs and shrub roses. At the bottom the cane appeared to be dead wood so I cut it out. Only to find that when I got the entire cane separated out of the rest of the plant the top was green and growing. Bummer!

  • sherryocala
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pam, tried to bump up the "Aging Roses" post and I posted to it also, but it doesn't appear on the current list of threads. I suppose if someone wants to post on it, we'll have to keep getting to it from here since we can't get to it from the list of posts.

    Or keep it in a tab on your browser.

    Sherry

    Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

  • sammy zone 7 Tulsa
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One aspect of pruning that I have not read about here is the fact that once a rose begins to decline, I do not have much luck in saving it.

    That is why I feel that I must be vigilant about watching the rose once it is established. Last winter I made dramatic cuts in my Penelopes, and this year they seemed to be much stronger, except for one that died.

    I remember Paul Zimmerman's videos well, and did what he suggested.
    It is hard to get under the rose to look at the growth, determine what canes look too gray, large, and weak and then get under there with a saw to cut them out.

    As I looked at my roses today, I think the Penelopes benefitted by the cuts made last year.

    Sammy

  • jill_perry_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jerome,
    I also have Lady Hillingdon and Baronne H de S. With the Lady, I just cut it off as high as I can reach, and remove dead stuff and spindly stuff. My Baronne has gone one sided. If I look from the west, it's a nicely shaped plant. From the east, a bunch of bare canes. I haven't figured out how to encourage new growth on that side. I wrote a pruning blog about a year ago, which covers teas. Here's a link:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Jill's pruning comments and links

  • Campanula UK Z8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    just a thought as I personally do not grow teas but I do andf have rejuvenated many a gnarly old specimen without any brutal pruning at all. When spring pruning, just as the sap is beginning to flow again, I make a small and shallow cut through the cambium layer, at a point just above the graft union on an old and woody cane (this is not for doing on nice green canes). I girdle the cane at least halfway round, water well and that's it. Mystifyingly, I have been doing this halway house thing for years but it never seems to be mentioned in rose care books. I first heard of this in a Chris Warner book 'Growing Roses' published 1976. It has never failed to amaze me at the alacrity of new basals to spring anew from some very unpromising material. It interuppts the flowing of sap without any of the potential shock and starvation harsh pruning can cause and imo, I would certainly be giving this a try on teas which are mean with basal growth.

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    campanula,

    Do you remove a strip of outer bark or just slit it?

    Do you cut through the green inner bark (cambium, as I understand it)?

  • Campanula UK Z8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Michael, I just cut through, right into the cambium to a depth of up to a couple of millimetres, taking the incision between a third and halway round the cane. I like to make the cut 4-6 inches above the root union. The slit callouses over fairly quickly but the sapflow is interrupted long enough to stimulate basal growth - which will break from the nearest dormant bud eye to the cut - mostly below but sometimes just above. The plant thinks it has been pruned and rushes to make new growth but there is absolutely no risk to the rose. I think this ringbarking (or a slight variation of) is often used on unproductive or over vigorous fruit trees.

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, maybe I learned something today.

  • rosefolly
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've never heard of this technique, but I can see where it would be quite useful. A lot of roses throw up a lot of canes from the base when they are young, but then not very many at all. There can come a time when you need more canes.

    Thanks for the hint.

    Rosefolly

  • Campanula UK Z8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    if the canes are green and flexible, especially on some of the Austins such as Graham Thomas, I bend the cane hard at an angle, flattening it without actually breaking through to the cambium (although it may sometimes split a little). This works much like bending roses to a horizontal and is really effective on those great long one season canes for which the Austins are reknowned. Discovered by accident after trying to force a long cane to go through a hanging basket bracket. It didn't snap, just bent over, crushing the rose cane. I thought it would weaken and produce nothing but it broke into laterals all along the length, better than the other canes which had been bent down but not actually crushed flat. The cane does tend to make a callous though.

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's standard practice in some greenhouses to bend blind shoots of HTs in this way, only below horizontal, so they produce one strong shoot above the bend. Google as "bent canopy" to learn more.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What you describe is reminiscent of what is done to the stock tops after budding new roses to force the scion to push growth. Kim

  • Campanula UK Z8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    well hey, thanks Michael and Kim - there is nothing nicer than seeing some validation of one's fiddling around. I first noticed the stem slitting method while idly perusing an ancient dracaena in my bathroom. Without thinking, I dug my thumbnail in the naked stem (there had been no new growth for years and it had great long, twisty, bare limbs) and thought no more about it until a few weeks later, a brand new shoot appeared out of the slit I had made. Months later, I came across the exact same principle, elaborated by a breeder I much admire (Chris Warner). As for shoot bending, the papers you pointed me to were fascinating - I love to learn new things but once you have got the basics of horticulture tucked under your belt, it is a frustrating search for innovative ideas for amateurs such as myself - which is why forums such as this are so brilliant. I like to mess around with little trials of this and that (you wouldn't believe my latest fad but it involves phyto-remediation, sorting out rose replant syndrome by using zeolite - I have persuaded a mate with access to amazing university facilities to participate, using loads of Sommerwind (cos it is a cakewalk to propagate)and zeolite, a naturally occuring mineral with astonishing uses. Then there was the inosculation fad - still growing a circle of hornbeam for approach grafting them into a living arbour......and so on and on. Keep up the search for new and interesting stuff - we are hungry and avid for information.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Campanula, bending over the cane is what you're doing when you train a climber "off the vertical". You're equalizing the sap pressure along the cane instead of at the apex to encourage laterals to grow. Ralph Moore frequently bent over canes of his seedlings to encourage new buds to break into growth to push new varieties before selection for introduction. He'd get them swelling and bud them before new foliage developed, putting the newly inserted scions with their stocks, under mist to callus and grow far more quickly than traditional methods would permit.

    Partially girdling the cambium above the growth bud is similar to girdling it above the scion after budding and far less extreme than actually breaking the stock above it as has frequently been the practice. I have also seen the partial girdling used to help encourage uncooperative fruit scions to break into growth.

    My main concern with doing that on an old rose cane would be the potential dead zone running up the cane from that damaged piece of cambium. In my climate, sun scald is a perpetual problem. Anything which encourages dead wood assists scald to occur. I would imagine in my climate the best course would be to stimulate the new basals, then remove the older, unproductive cane before some opportunistic pathogen or insect makes use of it. Kim

  • Campanula UK Z8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mmmm, so much to learn, so little time. I confess to finding botany something of a pain while I was studying horticulture - much happier doing practical stuff - so a lot of academic articles sail over my head. The more you know, the less you REALLY know....until you settle for just trying and hoping.

    I was gonna write that word that begins with f, rhymes with bag, in place of 'pain'....and gardenweb wouldn't let me?????? Pfffft, I am feeling cross now!

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was gonna write that word that begins with f, rhymes with bag, in place of 'pain'....and gardenweb wouldn't let me??????

    That particular word has a pejorative usage in the US, probably why gardenweb wouldn't let it through.

  • Campanula UK Z8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    even so, not keen on nannying, hoovb. must try out some weird english terms, ha. i think bollocks usually gets through.