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A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on
Sat, Dec 28, 13 at 14:23

I never thought I'd have room for a really big monster rose, but I may have need for one now. The neighbor's home, which is admittedly rather far away, has become more visible since a tree and a large shrub that helped to screen it have died due to lack of adequate rainfall. It occurred to me that this would be an opportunity for me to finally have a really large rose that would provide a screen and also possibly give a home to birds (or possibly roof rats?). I do have a short hose there now so it would have water but hopefully wouldn't require an awful lot.

This rose would need to be tall and solid, and a very fast grower in a climate that doesn't really seem to encourage rapid growth. A remontant rose would be nice but not an absolute requirement for this situation. It should look natural, not something with large and blowsy double blooms, and should have a soft color. Vicious thorns are less desirable, unless other positive considerations override that negative. Fast-growing, as mentioned,would be a huge positive.

I welcome any suggestions but especially from those who live in a similarly dry and difficult environment.

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Ingrid,

Cornelie - Belle Vichysoisse is a white/ soft pink Noisette that I would suggest, but it does not have large blooms. It is very vigorous and reported to do very well in an area hotter than mine without requiring a lot of water once established.

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.637

I always look at Jaspermplant's suggestions, as she gardens in
Phoenix, which is significantly hotter than Las Vegas, and thus I think hotter than where you are. It is arid as well.

Good luck! I am sure you will select the perfect rose bush.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Sat, Dec 28, 13 at 17:11


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

The Yellow Lady Banks rose (banksia lutea) has NO thorns whatever, loves heat, and will get huge (it might take it a year or so to take off, but then stand back!). It blooms in a very soft pale yellow. The blooms are clusters of tiny flowers. Mine has bird nests in it, so I don't let my DH prune or work on it except in the Fall/WInter. It is a once bloomer, but blooms here starting in Feb or March and continuing into June. If there is nothing for it to climb on, it will make a very large mound.

I would also consider the china rose mutabilis, which gets very large in very warm climates, and blooms almost all of the time. Lovely multicolored small single blooms.

Also, you might take a look at the larger tea roses - all of them like warmth, and many of them make an 8 by 8 by 8 mound if left to themselves (plant two!). Most of them have soft colors.

None of these roses will grow as fast as say, bamboo, but they are worth waiting for the small amount of time they take to get large.

Such a lovely "dilemma" - how fun to have the opportunity to grow a really large rose! Good luck -

Jackie


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Hey Ingrid -- For a rose I know is tough, and which can definitely get big -- I can't think of anything better than the Sweetbriar rose. R. eglantaria.

I've seen it huge, behind a 19th-Century wine bard at Rancho Camulos, and I've seen it flourishing, completely feral, in the Sierra Foothills. I think the single pink blooms are lovely, you can't beat the fragrance, and it covers itself with beautiful yellow hips.

Jeri


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Actually I'm a "she":) Jasper was a beloved cat I had several years ago.

Of course, I'd go with a big beautiful tea, like Mrs BR Cant or Marie Van Houte. Another huge one here that blooms all the time is Mons. Tillier. But, you probably know all about these huge wonderful teas...


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

jaspermplants, so sorry. It is corrected. I erred in thinking there was a name attached once indicating otherwise.

My apologies.

Lynn


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Lynn, no problem at all; you wouldn't have any way of knowing otherwise!


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

When I hear the word gigantic applied to roses, I think ramblers, the roses that are of the tree-eating propensity. They're tough (grow where others won't), grow quickly, cover big areas, and generally are once-bloomers that create a massive spectacle of flowers in spring.

The one that comes to mind first is Paul's Himalayan Musk. Pink, lovely, and fragrant. I used to grow it in the past on a property I sold. The one I have now is a new plant which should bloom for the first time in 2014. Very graceful, and an excellent screen. Very rapid grower.

Another is Princesse Marie. Pink. Mine arrived as a band in 2012 and already has multiple canes a good thirty feet up a tree and counting. A Jack-in-the-Beanstalk rose.

The Garland, white. Certainly quite vigorous but not quite as speedy as Princesse Marie. Sets copious hips for the birdies!

White Lady Banks is also a quick grower, thornless and lightly scented of violets. Somewhat drought tolerant in my experience.

Another whopper is Kiftsgate. I haven't grown it before but have heard it attains legendary proportions. White.

Rosa brunoni 'La Mortola'. A very, very vigorous tree climber. Lovely single white flowers, and lots of hips for wildlife. I planted it in an area that had been devastated by fire in order to provide food for the wild creatures. It did this job well until we had a massive flood, and the stream it was growing next to overflowed its banks and kept the rose submerged for at least a week. It died.:(

Rambling Rector, white, is said to be an excellent big screen. It is supposed to handle shade well. Haven't grown it myself. But the pictures on the web are impressive.

There is always Mermaid. She reblooms, and is a single in pale yellow. However, she is weaponized to the nth degree. Mine have never set hips. All that armery does provide plenty of cover for birds though. Other people have commented that it is drought tolerant. I haven't found it to be so, at least in comparison with my other roses (which I do choose at least partly on drought tolerance). IMHO she needs moderate water.

Melissa


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Thanks so much for the responses. Tea roses don't get large for me, not even my two Mrs. B.R. Cant bushes so far, don't really know why.

Another rose that occurred to me is Cl. Cecile Brunner. I already have Mutabilis but certainly wouldn't mind another. R. eglanteria looks huge; thanks for the pics, Jeri. That would certainly be another contender, as would the banksias.

Please keep the posts coming. I've never been in the market for a huge rose and so am not very well informed. I've tried several in another garden but in a spot that was too hot and with poor soil so that doesn't really count. I remember two of them were Mermaid and Alberic Barbier. I've also had the yellow banksia but in an inappropriate spot without enough room.

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Wolley Dod's Rose. Once it gets going you won't have to water it at all. Though it is a spring bloomer the foliage and then the hips are attractive. Mine is getting bigger every year. It doesn't need support. You may have heard me say before that it might be my favorite rose. If the drought truly settles in here i may plant more.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Ingrid,

Jacqueline suggested Yellow Lady Banks and I can attest to the drought tolerance of it. The house across the street was vacant for over two years. The YLB was not watered here, in this heat, with humidity levels that are the lowest in the country for for places with 50k plus population. For over two years, here where the average rainfall is about 4.5" annually, this unwatered YLB remained healthy and bloomed profusely. I was stunned!!

I grew the White Lady Banks and removed it because after 18 months there were a couple of long canes that had already made it to the second story of my home and were beginning to grow across the roof. It would have gobbled up my front porch.

I purchased it from local garden center. It was in a 5-10 gallon pot (I don't remember exactly), with a very inadequate trellis attached.
Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Sat, Dec 28, 13 at 21:41


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Ingrid - Your idea of Cl Cecile Brunner is also good. They grow all over our neighborhood, frequently where they do not get any care. Here is a picture of mine growing up our house next to the banksia lutea. It blooms a lot in the Spring, with a moderate repeat in the Fall. I have heard that there is a clone of it that repeats more - Jeri may know about that one.

Jackie


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

So many good choices. Wolley-Dod's Rose is really beautiful and R. banksia is appealing because it's thornless. I just found out that Heirloom Roses has an everblooming Cl. Cecile Brunner on sale for $8.75! Has anyone ever ordered this rose from them?

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Ingrid, I used to grow Heirloom's version of Cl Cecile Brunner. Even after several years it didn't get nearly as large as I was expecting. I suspect it is actually Spray Cecile Brunner, not Cl Cecile Brunner. When it eventually succumbed to a gopher I replaced it with one of the Lady Banks roses. I wanted big.

Rosefolly


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Rosefolly, that thought had occurred to me too. Thank you for replying so quickly. I once had a rose that was labeled Cl. Cecile Brunner which I suspect strongly was Spray Cecile Brunner since it stayed very much smaller than the gorgeous specimen in Jackie's picture. Rebloom is not a huge concern for this rose but size is.

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Madame Grégoire Staechelin, Mme Alfred Carrière, Buff Beauty and Lady Hillingdon climber are all supposed to be heat and draught tolerant although I don't know how large they can grow in your climate.

I would also look up the larger of the wichurana ramblers. Many of them are quite heat tolerant and don't mind poorer soil. Being able to grow besides and into trees indicates that they are quite efficient in using whatever water is left for them.

I would also consider Paul's Himalayan musk although I would investigate if it needs colder winters to flower well.

Wichuranas, musks and noisettes may all be candidate classes depending on the particular rose.

In general, heat tolerant once flowering roses may be more draught tolerant than repeaters, as long as they get established and receive a reasonable amount of water during winter and early spring.

Banksie of course are excellent candidates and I can attest to some growing to humongous size in hot and dry med conditions in my country, Banksiae Lutea in particular.

I know you can't order from Peter Beales's in the UK, but may be it would be a good idea to use their site's search facility to look for roses indicated as suitable for warm climates, for climbing into trees and suitable for poorer soils. You may get quite a few leads to investigate further.

Nik

Here is a link that might be useful: Peter Beales'


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

My first thought was Mermaid. She is very thorny and a great refuge for birds. Mine have been very drought tolerant, even as rooted cuttings. White Lady Banks is also a drought survivor for me. One seemingly unlikely Hybrid Tea is Lafter who is also thorny but grew 8' tall in just a few years with minimal watering. She also requires no support. My climate is much more humid than yours but recently we have been having very dry summers which have tested the roses' toughness.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

The moment I saw the title, the first thing that came into mind was R. gigantea. You can already guess from its name how large it's gonna be. It's been known to climb trees actually. It's got large soft yellow blooms that fade quickly into white in warmer weather. It's a native of India so it's very ok with warmer climates. Being a species rose means that it's very tolerant of diseases. On the downside, it is quite thorny though given its tree-climbing nature. I'm not an expert so I'm just throwing this suggestion out there in case it helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosa gigantea


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Ingrid & rosefolly - yes, you do have to be careful to get the real Cl Cecile Brunner. When I tried to get mine, I ordered one from Heirloom which, to my annoyance, only grew 3 feet tall in 4 years. Then I ordered another one from I forget which nursery and the same thing happened! Since all of our local nurseries claimed to have that rose when I called them on the phone, I marched around the county looking at all of them. I got mine finally by purchasing a plant that was in a giant pot, and had already gotten over 10 feet tall - that is the one still growing on our house. Of course, it was expensive, but I was so frustrated at that point that I didn't care, because I knew it had to be the climbing version.

It should not have been that difficult, since that rose is growing everywhere around here. If I had to do it again, I would just beg a cutting from one of our neighbors who have giant specimens, and that would have saved me 4-5 years. In the Spring when they are all blooming, you might drive around your area and see if you can find one that is really large. Or, you might see another giant rose growing and fall in love with it. It is always good to actually see them after they have been growing for a while and have gotten really big.

Jackie


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

I'm still going back and forth in trying to decide on which rose I want. Mermaid I've had before and didn't care for too much, R. gigantea has flowers that look odd in some of the pictures on HMF, double roses will look too formal for the spot I have in mind except for Cl. Cecile Brunner and the banksias since they're smaller. Paul's Himalayan Musk I've seen several times and it's very pretty. Since I want this plant to grow quickly I think I'll call Greenmantle Nursery since they have two-gallon plants and see what they have available. The only plant I've seen growing locally is Cl. Cecile Brunner so that's one possibility. However, I'm open to ramblers and wild roses and almost anything that's large and tough. Mutabilis has the advantage of almost year-round bloom, and maybe I could even try Reve d'Or which I love and have no room for near the house. It does have larger flowers but I could make an exception for that one. I'm literally getting a headache! The Beales site was interesting to look at, Nik, but it made me want to buy an awful lot of roses.

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Pink Clouds. It's a once bloomer, but meets all your other criteria. And it will grow quite nicely dry, once established. That's why Ralph Moore used it as his "go-to" rootstock. Grows anywhere, and with great vigor. One inch (if that) bright pink blooms in large clusters, once per year.

Otherwise, Fortuniana would be a good candidate also.

With anything you put there, however, you will need something to hold it up in the air. Most roses that go up need something to climb. Maybe a few long pieces of rebar in a teepee shape would do it. The teepee would be covered in no time.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

What a magnificent dilemma! Any of these would be wonderful to have.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Dec 30, 13 at 13:58

I notice that many of the roses mentioned in this thread are climbers -- do you have something for a rose to climb in this spot? I was getting the impression that with the tree and large shrub gone, you needed something self-supporting. If that's the case, then I wonder how the monster climbers will look if they have nothing to climb -- will they just octopus everywhere, then flop over from their own weight? Maybe something like "Darlow's Enigma" might work better, since it is self-supporting in full-sun -- and really hardy.

:-)

~Christopher


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

  • Posted by titian1 Sydney, Australiae (My Page) on
    Mon, Dec 30, 13 at 19:47

Ingrid, I know you said teas don't get that big for you, but have you tried Monsieur Tillier? My 3yo plant is now 8' tall by 15' wide, and smothered in blooms most of the time. It survives lack of water once established, as it's seen around old abandoned homesteads here. Perhaps with Mutabilis next to it? They go well together.
Trish.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Jacqueline---that picture is amazing----I was going to suggest Albertine but it is quite thorny----Paul's Himalayan Musk is a winner in my garden with no special care-----the birds love it-----it is a "once-bloomer" but oh what a bloom

Florence


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

We put in a Belle Portugaise last spring and it's springing out of the ground in a way so few climbers seem to do on our property. One cane already 10 plus feet tall. But it does have loose, tea-like blush blooms - not sure if that's the look you want.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Even though some trees and bushes are gone and/or dead, I thought the rose could grab on to the dead ones that are left and cover up their nakedness and yellow leaves. On the other side is a 900 sq. foot house that we call the studio which is actually filled with furniture we had no room for. We could possibly attach some of the canes to the side wall of that structure.

I had Monsieur Tillier and didn't care for the color or the fact that it fried in the heat, although this spot has more shade. Since none of my teas has grown huge I have some doubt that this one would be different. Mutabilis is still definitely on my list and it does grow taller here. I do have the impression that some of the ramblers will form large bushes if left to their own devices, although as mentioned they will have some trees and shrubs to fasten on to.

Florence, your Paul's Himalayan Musk is to die for. I've admired it for years and it is huge. For certain a show stopper!

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Maybe the Chestnut Rose? I’m not sure how it would do in your dry heat, but it's said to be tough as nails here...thriving at old homesteads in the very hot, humid Southeast despite many years of neglect. It won’t get as gigantic as a house eater, but it does grow very large here and makes a beautiful and extraordinary specimen. Although it has a unusual look, it blends naturally into old Southern gardens, but not sure if it would be a fit for your setting? Very becoming but different, healthy foliage with a big flush of flowers early in the season and then scattered rebloom with those unique chestnut hips following. I believe there are both a double and single flowering version available, but the double is what I see around here. I’ve seen it pruned to tree form to show off its exfoliating bark like a crape myrtle or left unpruned as a large shrub. It shouldn't need any support. I've heard it grows into a large shrub quickly, but sometimes takes a couple of years to start flowering. I’ve never grown it personally, but it’s on my want list.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Pat, I had the Chestnut Rose in another garden and it was an interesting and different rose, but I don't know that I like it enough to plant it again. I seem to remember a certain amount of thorniness too, and am thinking now that it would be a good plan for a large rose to have as few thorns as possible. Thanks for the suggestion though. I've seen pictures of large plants and they're magnificent, and looks-wise I think it would have been very appropriate for me.

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Thank you all so much for your input, which really helped me to clarify in my mind what I did and didn't want. Since this rose will be close to the boundary line with our neighbor, I decided that a climber that might decide to visit the neighbor's trees, which are right next to ours, might not be a very politic decision. A climber would also be more difficult to handle than a large shrub. My final decision fell on my beloved Mutabilis, of which I already have one fronting the house, but this second one would be far away, and in this spot would be allowed to grow to its full height and width, which is not possible with the one I have against the house wall. I saw some magnificent 12- and 15-foot specimens in southern CA on HMF and got very excited about eventually having such a large one of my own. I ordered from Chamblee's since a 1-gallon plant will hopefully give me a head start over a band. Unfortunately Greenmantle, who send out even larger plants, didn't have this rose available.

It's strange, but just when you think you're more or less done with ordering new roses, some unthought of possibility pops up. Such fun!

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Congrats on finally reaching a nice decision with Mutabilis Ingrid! :D


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

You could try doing a cutting from your Mutabalis. I'm going to try that with Mrs BR Cant. I love the one I have and am going to plant a matching one on the other side of the driveway. I figured it would take just as long as ordering a band and having that grow. Unless I can get one from Roses Unlimited (where I got the one I have now) and possible get a two gallon size.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Ingrid---I'm happy to hear that you decided on a rose that you are already in love with----You know it does well in your area which is a plus---Taking a cutting from your much-loved plant is a good idea----I have about 5 Zeffys around my garden that are babies from my original ZD---
My gardening is limited these days but when I used to take cuttings I would use a 5 gallon plastic water bottle with the bottom cut off----they make a wonderful little green house---
Looking forward to seeing your new baby--

Florence


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

I should have thought of making cuttings since I once had five Mutabilis (when I lived on 5 acres) and four of them were cuttings. Unfortunately I put my order to Chamblee's in yesterday. Their one-gallon roses usually grow fairly quickly, especially if they send a vigorous plant.

Ingrid


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Although I don't know if you would be able to grow a once blooming rambler, I have one that I collected near Mrs. Keays garden in Calvert County MD 30 years ago. It may be her Snowbush, but I call it Keays Great White. It is a gigantic single white that grew 50' to the top of my pear tree in 3 or 4 years. The pear tree bloomed twice. It is more vigorous that Paul's Himalayan Musk or American Pillar, has great fragrance, sets enormous bunches of hips, and has smooth, mildew resistant, pointed leaves. It is not R. multiflora, but much larger and more handsome. Its blooms are in clusters ��" perhaps 1.5 times larger blooms than multiflora and up to cantaloupe size clusters. I have not seen it elsewhere not even in 10 famous British gardens. In a shaded part of my garden it has achieved a mound about 20 ft wide and 15’ high (it collapses on itself after a few years). Another very large rose that I grew was Bobby James and eventually grew to about 25’ wide and tall as well and virtually free-standing. It too like the Great White needs dormancy for its once blooming spectacular show. Both are more vigorous than Paul’s HM, American Pillar, and New Dawn for me. Best, Nick


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

For anyone reading this, I would like to say that even though it grows very fast, Albertine is a great pleasure. This rose has covered my shed twice and been cut back hard when we needed to try and save my apple tree from fireblight ( so far so good ). It bounced right back with big fat canes from the base that quickly grew 10 feet like Jack's Beanstalk.
At first the little rose made slim long canes covered with hooky thorns that grab onto anything. We had to tie these slender ones up to a trellis and drape them over the top of the shed. Later came the big thick straight canes and more substantial flowering wood that formed a lovely canopy.

This rose could be a lovely big freestanding haystack in later days but would need some support for the first 4 or 5 years. The spring display is so lovely and it will tolerate some shade. It also has gotten by on less water although I gave it plenty in the early years. Also this rose roots quite easily. I'm glad I took a chance to grow it. I think you can train it easily but the thorns are small and mighty so please take care and use eye protection and wear a shirt you don't care for.

We planted a cutting ( it rooted itself in leaf debris on the shed roof ) at my best friend's house. He wanted something to guard his wall and go over the area next to the gate. From just a one gallon start this rose has covered a 7X10 trellis on a north facing wall where only fern would grow in under 2 years. It is all the thin long growth that we wind back and forth on the trellis and it has now started making good growth at the top of the wall in the sun. I expect the thick shoots from the base will come later this year but I am impressed how much growth this rose has made in the shade of that tall wall.


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RE: A Tough and Gigantic Rose?

Nick and Kitty, I enjoyed reading about the roses you describe. How interesting to read about the rose near Mrs. Keay's garden. I've enjoyed her book about her garden so much. The rose you describe sounds spectacular.

I don't think I'm up any more for roses like that or Albertine that need much work and that's one of the reasons I chose Mutabilis, with which I'm already very familiar. I suppose it too could turn into a climber if it had something to scramble onto, which it will. Oh well, nothing is ever easy.....

Ingrid


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