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ingrid_vc

I'm Expecting Worms!

In the mail, that is, 1000 wriggling, lively, hopefully helpful worms that will enrich my soil with their droppings and are supposed to pull down the decaying mulch deeper into the soil and work the whole thing into a rich mixture that roses will delight growing in.

Has anyone else tried this? Has it been successful and is there anything I should know other than the instructions that will hopefully be included with the little pink miracle workers?

Ingrid

Comments (71)

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DG can make a world of difference, Ingrid. Add that construction in California since the seventies has been on seismically compacted soil, with the newest requiring increasingly denser compaction to prevent liquifaction and you have a lose-lose proposition. The more air space you squeeze from the soil, the more rock-like and seismically stable it is, but the more difficult it is for air, water, roots and worms to penetrate it. DG is clay and sand particles, which is why it sets up like concrete when it dries out. This stuff gets sticky when wet, then dries hard and eventually recovers its "fluffy" texture, making it a favorite of moles (legions of them!) and gophers. Most things will grow if those are eliminated and some organic material is added or spread on the surface to insultate it against the heat and wind. That's one reason I allow the petty spurge to do its thing out back. The shade it provides the soil and air space insluation against the direct sun, help the soil to remain damp under it. Where I remove the spurge, the soil dries out completely and the moles stay away. Where I let it grow, the soil is damp and full of mole tunnels. If it was flat and I could eliminate the underground critter activity, it would be decent to garden in. Those are two virtually impossible "ifs", unfortunately. Kim

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a question for Mary the worm whisperer if she's still following this thread. I have lots of decorative pots sitting on concrete. Whenever I pick one of these pots up, there's always at least one huge, fat healthy earthworm under it, sometimes several. What are they living on underneath these pots?

    I know this doesn't work for Ingrid because she's discussed before that she can't keep newspapers wet in her desert climate, but I put down layers of newspapers in my beds with manure on top. Weeks later, I can peel back a layer of newspaper, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of tiny baby earthworms. They seem more attracted to the newspaper than the manure.

    Ingrid, I once had friends that had a worm farm. They fed them shredded newspapers that they had put in their blender with water and made into a slurry. I wonder if you could keep your purchased worms happy by giving them a weekly blender container of newspaper slurry.

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You don't have to make a slurry out of the paper. Newsprint is a favorite of earthworms. I've used it shredded as well as in flat sheets for "mulch". It gets eaten and breaks down very quickly with any moisture. It's often sufficiently arid here in summer for it not to break down after many months, but it will disintegrate from UV exposure and blow with the wind unless weighed down. Kim

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Floridarose said: I have a question for Mary the worm whisperer if she's still following this thread. I have lots of decorative pots sitting on concrete. Whenever I pick one of these pots up, there's always at least one huge, fat healthy earthworm under it, sometimes several. What are they living on underneath these pots?

    That's a really good question ...rose. If there is a hole in the bottom of the pot, they worms will be crawling in and out harvesting the goodies in the pot. Is the pot sitting on the ground? If yes, the ground under the pot has some fertile matter near the surface.

    I'm not sure what's going on with the worms liking the newspaper layer more than the underlying soil....but now that I re-read it, is the layer of newspaper UNDER the manure? You're making wonderful 'tea' that is leaching into the soil. Great idea! I'm going to use it. Thanks!

    ingrid, I don't mean to annoy you but for benefit of anyone looking for information in this thread: It is not a *theory* (or belief) that worms need organic matter to live, it's a fact. If you keep bringing in worms and do not provide a hospitable environment for them, they likely will die. This is mean. I know it's an uninformed mean but still.....and if you are in a desert environment (I'm in Phoenix btw), and bring in red wigglers, to "....see what might happen (paraphasing here"), what will happen is you will fry these little guys in desert temps in summer - red wigglers live in the top 2" of soil. That's not a theory either. It too is a fact. Gosh, that might be worse than starving them to death.

    ingrid, do some research so you better understand how to handle the living things you are bringing into your life. Ok. They are only worms after all. Lots of people stick them on a hook and dangle 'em in front of fish. Still, I'm just saying.....be kind to all the critters. Please.

  • mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When I moved into this house, there was nary a worm to be seen in the soil. I used worm poop which has some worm castings and "seeds" for lack of a better term. Did that for several years and a couple of times a season. I have worms all over the place now. Soil is so much better. During a hard rain, they come wiggling out on the patio and I take them back to the soil where they belong.

    I think your plan is great. Looking forward to hearing your reports in the future on how it is working.

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingrid, may I make a suggestion for your worms? Rather than sprinkling them around the whole garden, try focusing on making one bed a "worm heaven" and putting them there. Then gradually "heaven-ify" other areas, and scoop some from your first bed to seed the next area, then continue through the garden. It might be overwhelming for you to supply ideal conditions to your whole garden at once, but if you do a little bit frequently, it won't be long until you get the whole area ready.

    Take my coffee grounds project as an example. I started collecting a kitchen garbage can full of used grounds every day back in mid November. I should be done in another two to three weeks at this rate. But I'm also hoping to not have to do this again until next year (and I'll be sure to start earlier). If you can commit to just one can per week, you can probably finish most of your roses by the time the harsh heat comes.

    As another way of incorporating organic material (and worm food), do you have a leaf shredder? If so, you can throw newspaper in there as well. This way, you don't have to wait until Autumn to have a supply of "browns". You'd be amazed how abundant paper-based waste is when you suddenly look for it. Where I live, Monday nights all the businesses put out their cardboard for recycling pick-up. When I needed cardboard for making my beds, it didn't take long to grab what I needed on the way home from work. If I had a chipper for tree branches, I'd have a never-ending mulch supply, free for the taking. If you mix shredded paper stuff with coffee grounds plus whatever food waste you generate from your home, you'd have all the worm food you need.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mary, there might have been some misunderstanding here. bart mentioned the belief that worms will not thrive in a new environment and that is what I referred to as a theory. I never said it was a theory that worms need organic matter to live. It would be absurd to say that. I also thought I had made it very clear that I've been mulching around the roses for years, which has mostly consisted of leaves, but I've also bought bags of worm castings and soil amendment in order to enrich the soil. The red wrigglers would be living in at least three inches of mulch and in the summer I water every single day. When it's warm rather than hot I water every second day. I've mentioned all these things in several posts.

    How am I being mean and uninformed? I happen to care about worms very much and rescue every worm I see that is out of its moist soil environment. I don't fish because it would hurt the worms and the fish. I'm a vegetarian because of the inhumane methods used to raise and kill animals for meat. You might wish to re-read everything I've said before you berate me in almost every sentence of your post.

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ingrid, sorry for mis-interpreting your meaning. My thinking is that a new environment is likely without organic matter. It's not that the worms dislike a new environment, it's because that new environment likely has no existing organic matter. My intention is only to add information or to clarify mis-information, which is what we have here. And no, I have not read any of your prior posts. This thread hit GW's home page in its list of a dozen or so new posts, I clicked on the post because it was about worms, of which I know a bit.

    The bottom line is that organic matter is composted material, fresh material is just what you said above, mulch.

    A quote from the article linked below:
    To compost leaves, pile them in the fall, then turn the pile several times in March and April. Leaf mulch from a home compost pile is excellent for summer mulching around rhododendrons, blueberries, and other shrubs that are sensitive to summer drought, or in vegetable and flower gardens. Apply 1 to 2 inches after soil has warmed (June).
    Partially composted leaves also can be used to improve soil in annual planting beds.

    and:
    What is the difference between a mulch and a soil amendment?
    A mulch is a protective layer of material that is spread over the soil surface. Unlike a soil amendment, mulches are not dug or rototilled into the soil.

    Soil amendments need to be DUG INTO the soil, not merely laid on top.

    Peace.
    Mary

    Here is a link that might be useful: Improving Garden Soil with Organic Matter

  • Charlie
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My daughter just gave me a Christmas gift of a 4-tray worm factory. I have set it up and placed food in the feeding tray while I wait for my herd of 1,000 red wrigglers that are expected to arrive from Uncle Jims in 1-3 days. While waiting, I made a worm station from a folgers coffee can and placed it in one of my raised gardens near a gojiberry bush. It is full of scraps also. I am going to make one more to place near my second gojiberry bush. So I will have two worm stations and the worm factory in operation.

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow Charlie, that looks wonderful - all that green....I miss green. [sigh] Are your worm stations like worm towers? Top and bottom of can cut out and holes all over it? Is that what you mean?

    Worms really love melons, like watermelon rinds. Corn cobs leftover from dinner....a veritable worm orgy will happen. Another good trick a friend told me, when she feels like she's been ignoring her worms for a few days is to bake a sweet potato for them. Let it cool of course, then add dollops of it around the tray in the bedding. yum yum, they love it.

    Good luck and Happy Worming. Your plants are going to love you for it.

  • Charlie
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bart_2010 - I see that you are in Italy. I lived for 16 years, off and on, in Italy. I loved it; everything grew there. While in northern Italy I saw people growing artichokes and kiwis; so I decided to try that in Northern VA. Above is my artichokes of 2012 and you hac see my hardy kiwi vines to the left of the raised garden bed. Here is my pergola for my fuzzy kiwis. When I was in Tivoli I grew apricots, figs, cherries, persimmons and pears; so now in N. VA I also have planted those.

  • Charlie
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mary - "Are your worm stations like worm towers? Top and bottom of can cut out and holes all over it? Is that what you mean? "

    I made the worm station out of a large plastic folgers coffee can. I drilled 1/2 inch diameter holes in the bottom and lower sides and burried it in the garden soil up to the can neck. I put in the scaps and put the coffee can lid back on to keep out the light and the critters. I plan to add a work high-rise/tower in the spring.

  • Marlorena
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ^that's nice...

    Where I am here, we are not permitted to leave out scraps of food for birds, worms or anything else - as it encourages rats. The place would be running alive with them I think... although the Seagulls and Magpie's might get there first... depends where you live I suppose...

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Charlie, that's perfect, should work really well. I added three worm towers/stations to my garden recently too. Happy gardening!

  • Kippy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can see I need to dig my worm tower deeper

    It is a 3 foot 10" pvc drain pipe with a bunch of holes drilled through the lower part that is dug down. But I think I will pull it up and dig it even deeper.

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just depends on where you want the most worm activity. Why not just add one more in a new location, plant that one deeper?

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, I suggested the slurry to Ingrid because she can't keep newspapers damp in her arid climate. The coffee grounds should work great also, Ingrid.

    Mary, Ingrid is one of the kindest people on this forum. I know from reading her posts she would never harm any creature. I, on the other hand, would cheerfully behead every armadillo and mole in central Florida if given half a chance. I would also like a whack at the coyote that ate all my chickens. I can be quite blood thirsty.

  • Kippy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I placed the tower close to the veggie garden. I could put a second one in closer to the house but with all the horse manure compost and wood chip mulch I have skunks hunting worms nightly and am a bit tired of all the digging ( and spraying)

    The chickens are also great scrap eaters and since the bobcat seems to be watching us and our hens can't free range, they are getting most of the scraps. We are not putting the in the compost bin due to the bobcat.

    But I can dig the bin deeper and put in the fallen back yard leaves and what I clean up after the skunks I should put a heavier lid on it and then glue down the bowl I put the bird bath water in so I don't end up with a skunk in my worm bin

    This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Mon, Dec 29, 14 at 11:59

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The skunks, rats, squirrels, gophers and coyotes are why I can't use raw organics here, either, Kippy. Fortunately, we haven't seen any wild cats, but I'm certain there are around, living this close to the "urban wilderness". Unfortunately, anything which encourages more earthworms also encourages more moles and there is a TON of those vermin! Kim

  • Kippy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim. I can see that a have a mole again but so far the gophers are staying away. We have one red tailed tree squirrel and no ground squirrels here. But bet the coyote and bobcat have been cutting the population down at the cemetery. (Mom place is a yard away from the open space at the cemetery so the closer neighbors have more trouble)

    One would think we were out in the country not 2 blocks off the major road and or off a second major street But with the drought the bobcat, coyote and a mt lion have all visited

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wonder what happens to the delicate roots of the roses that are near the surface of the soil, especially with the younger roses, of which I have many, if you work the mulch into the soil. My understanding was that worms would pull some of that material under to use as nourishment, thereby enriching the soil with their castings.

    Christopher, I just now spotted your post. Unfortunately, I don't really have beds, as you do, but just dug individual holes for the roses and mulched around them and the companion plants I have. Also, since from what I understand from your comments you lay leaves and coffee grounds on top, are you just using this as mulch? According to one comment here, it seems to be useless as anything else unless it's worked into the soil. On the other hand, I've seen quite a few comments on this forum stating that the mulch disappears after a while, presumably being absorbed into the ground, thereby enriching the soil. I'm very puzzled at this point, and feel I really don't know enough to do the right thing. In addition, being attacked at a personal level by a total stranger, who didn't bother to read my comments correctly, has taken the fun out of this whole project.

    Ingrid

  • Marlorena
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would just carry on with what you intended and look forward to monitoring the results... I'm sure we here would also like to know how you get on with this... we always get opinions on the internet, whether we heed any advice given is up to us... I do sometimes think people don't mean to sound the way they do, it's difficult on the net as we cannot hear the tone of voice.. I often write things and look afterwards and think I could have said that better...

    ...with mulching, I would just lay it on the top, quite thickly, I think that's what most people do here, as once you start mixing it in, you can damage surface roots...

    ...it's a good project...do keep going with it...

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingrid, if you have the chance to tour older, established neighborhoods where the "gardeners" 'cultivate' the rose beds, in essence digging the stuff into the soil, you can easily observe what happens to the roots closer to the surface. If you've ever seen rose beds which were forests of Dr. Huey, sprouts of the blamed thing popping up all over, that's the result of digging in the soil in our climates. Elsewhere, I dunno, but here they either are injured and die; injured and continue growing from the injuries; injured and contract crown gall; or injured and sprout new shoots of the root stock. I guess the easiest way to figure out what's happened in a particular case is by how the plants are performing. Personally, I've seen far too many examples of Huey forests and severely galled budded plants to ever "cultivate" or dig anything into the soil. Kim

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok peeps, I'm officially sorry I wandered in here. Ingrid, I've re-read my post and really, I cannot see that I am "attacking" you but you win. With all sincerity, I'm sorry that I've caused you such anguish. I was just trying to educate a newbie to worm husbandry, how it all works and how to keep worms happy and productive. Go ahead and resume your trial by error, I'm outta here.

    Peace.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much, Marlorena and Kim, your comments have helped a great deal. Growing roses in not like growing eggplants, and I'm happy to see that my concerns about digging around rose bushes are not unfounded. Most of my roses are own-root, but I've been very annoyed with having to deal with Dr. Huey sprouting out from one or two grafted roses. Those things just won't give up. Even worse is injuring some treasured or difficult to obtain old rose by messing about with its soil. Until the drought became prolonged my garden was in fairly good shape even with the poor soil, but not enough rain and poor soil will never make roses happy. I want to do whatever I can now in a hopefully good rainy season to create as good an environment as possible in my garden.

    Ingrid

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think of mulches and soil amendments as being mutually exclusive (exception being stone mulches or mulches made of synthetic materials).

    Although mulches are placed on top of soil, natural, biomass-type "mulches" (wood chips, leaves, coffee grounds, newspaper...) do eventually break down and enter the soil and become, essentially, soil amendments, as you surmise, Ingrid. When we had a Monterey pine taken down some years ago, I spread a LOT of chipped pine bark and wood over my flower beds as mulch. Within several years it was nearly all decomposed and the additional organic matter has made the soil in those beds much nicer. It is not as fast a process as incorporating composted material directly into planting holes or beds (since it takes time to decompose, then sift or be moved down into the soil by critters), but it is a way to amend soil. Earthworms seem to really like areas where mulches have begun the process of breaking down, maybe because organic matter is so concentrated there.

    However, it is important to not mix undecayed mulches into soil directly because the microbes that break down the wood, etc. will tie up available soil nitrogen while the decomposing process takes place. Best to just lay undecayed material on the soil surface, which, as noted above, doesn't disturb the surface roots either.

    To give your worms some starting organic material to work with, you might place a layer of decayed material in the form of compost or soil amender between the soil surface and a thick layer of mulch where you turn the worms loose.

  • Kippy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One of the things a local who speaks on and teaches organic gardening says is that compost you can no longer tell what is was and mulch you can tell.

    For Ingrid, the gathered leaves and bunny poo is mulch not compost unless it has sat and cooked and done its thing. Before adding the worms to the DG and covering with mulch, it might be a good idea to put down a layer of purchased compost (organic) then a few worms and cover with more of the purchased compost making sure the compost was damp before the worms and then covering the top with the leaves and bunny poo

    When I apply compost to an existing bed/plant/tree, I put it down 2-3" deep after watering first and then cover with 3-4" of mulch. And yes that is about 6" and a lot of work to do, but it does make a difference. It will compress and very quickly with a bevy of happy hens, it turns in to some really nice soil quickly. Since our hens are now having to stay in, I am going to assume the process will really slow down.

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingrid -- the "mulch vs soil amendment" thing is not entirely accurate. Many gardeners DON'T till or dig things into their beds -- especially where perennials and shrubs are growing. And even many vegetable gardeners follow the "no-till" philosophy, simply layering nutrient-rich amendments on top of last year's mulch, then covering with a new layer of mulch (I remember that's how Paul Zimmerman does it).

    Certainly, when starting a new bed, working good stuff into crappy native soil can be a good thing, but it's not necessary if you're patient. Anything organic you apply as a "mulch" will eventually decompose and get worked into the soil by the various critters living in it. If you have a healthy earthworm population, "soil amendments" applied as a "mulch" will work their way down -- especially if the "soil amendments" are things that are attractive to earthworms. Nightcrawlers will come up through old mulch to feed on the "soil amendments" at the surface and poop further down, and the red wrigglers will simply live closer to the surface, anyway, if that's where all the food is. And the various beneficial fungi will spread their filaments all throughout the soil, bringing nutrients down to plant roots. Someway or another, the good stuff on top will eventually reach your roses!

    And that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. I put down a thick layer of leaves to add bulk to the beds. The coffee grounds on top are what the earthworms want, so they will work through the leaves to get it. Also, I'm noticing that as it rains, leaves are gradually working their way back up to the surface. My goal is that eventually the leaves and coffee grounds will become thoroughly mixed, and the leaves will decompose faster as the coffee grounds leach nutrients, making a weak "coffee-tea" every time it rains.

    This, of course, is a first-time experiment for me. Ideally, I'd have shredded the leaves first, but I never got around to getting a shredder this year. This whole exercise was intended to bring up the surface level in the beds again. The mulch layer (and other things I worked in) has settled a couple inches lower in a year, and I'm hoping this will stretch the life of the stuff in the beds before I have to do another big mulch delivery. In late Winter (before the newly-planted Spring bulbs start popping up) I'll gently fluff the grounds and leaves if things look compacted, but won't do any tilling.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingrid -- P.S. I THINK I sent you a friend-request on facebook. If you don't see one from me, then I must have found another Ingrid who loves roses, via some mutual friends on here.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

  • comtessedelacouche (10b S.Australia: hotdryMedclimate)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Ingrid,

    Just wanted to say how sorry I am you somehow got to be on the receiving end of that largely misguided and hurtfully worded attack - something I believe you've said before about how special this forum is because everyone here is so genuinely caring and supportive of each others' efforts comes to mind. Sadly, on the internet as in life, this is not always the case.
    We all do the best we can within our various limitations - whether they be due to health/disability, lack of knowledge or experience, low income or a thousand other reasons.
    There should be no need to attack anyone for any mistake they may or may not have made or for a lack of knowledge or understanding in any particular area. Constructive advice, sharing of experience and knowledge always goes down better with a generous helping of modesty and grace!
    Everyone who comes on this forum with any kind of problem or delight to share is guaranteed a sympathetic and courteous response from you; you've listened, empathised with and advised so many, novice and experienced rosarians alike, over the years, it seems especially tough that you should be lambasted when you are now struggling with your own seemingly intractable problem with your soil (or lack thereof!).
    Please don't let one person having a bit of a vent put you off, and may this forum long continue to be a safe and joyous meeting-place for all lovers of old roses.

    Hugs,

    Comtesse :-)

  • seil zone 6b MI
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I haven't anything to add to the discussion here. I love finding worms when I dig in the garden. Some how it makes me feel good to know that they like my soil. I just had to chime in because every time I read the title on this thread I chuckle. I hope you're due soon!

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, Seil, that was a hoot.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    catspa, Christopher and Kippy, thank you for your valuable comments about mulch/compost which have all helped me to understand more about how this process works. It's especially important for me since the native soil here is so poor, although of course everything planted here has had plenty of bagged soil added to the planting hole. With this kind of "soil" there needs to be a constant addition of organic material and I haven't always known the best way to go about it or the energy to do it; I could really use a Kippy or a Christopher to help out!

    Christopher, I'm no longer on Facebook so it's someone else you've contacted, but there is an Ingrid I've seen on HMF with beautiful roses, and she might be the one.

    Dearest comtesse, I can't even begin to tell you how much I appreciate your every word. To be misunderstood is a hurtful thing, and for you to realize this and to undo that hurt with so much kindness and insight is balm to my soul. Your voice and that of all the kind friends who've tried to aid me on this thread and in so many others mean so much more to me than one negative experience, which is already receding into the background. Thank you from the heart.

    Ingrid

  • bart_2010
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How terribly sad;in fact,honestly, I'm kind of disgusted. I really wanted to hear Mary the worm whisperer's opinion on another worm question,but I was away for a couple days only to find that she'd been "ousted" from the rose forum by attitudes which I consider to be very childish and frankly silly. I saw nothing truly offensive in her comments, she apologized, made it clear she isn't a "regular" on this forum,so could not possibly have known background and details,also made it clear that she didn't intend offence, etc (at least, that's how I interpret her signing off with the beautiful word "peace"). I would have thought that the concept of "forum" implied that we are all here to encourage communication and sharing,which at least in my book requires that we also must try to behave in an adult manner, not get huffy and offended because someone else -and here we ARE talking about Internet, for Pete's sake-by accident makes us feel that they tread on our toes. How is a complete stranger suppose to "understand " you, Ingrid? Worse yet, a third party "piles on"...pathetic. Grow up.Since now I've been deprived of discussion with Mary, I'll e-mail her in private. At this rate we'll end up with a sort of high school girlie club, not a forum, IMHO . Doubtless this post will hurt you profoundly, so I apologize in advance. Maybe I should just stay away from this forum myself, but I am very into roses, and find Kim's contributions, for example, too valuable,so I can't completely drop out.Thanks a bunch.

  • Marlorena
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ..that's unfortunate Bart... whilst it's good for us to air our views, I don't think there was any need for that post and I hope you think again on it, and perhaps edit it out, or amend it, before Ingrid sees it.... it's rather harsh...

    ...I also think that Mary meant well, and obviously knows about her subject, but she expressed herself rather condescendingly, overly critical without being constructive, and no one wants to be spoken to like that....I would have felt completely deflated... on a project I was looking forward to doing..
    ... equally, no one needs to run off as soon as they get an ounce of criticism, in return....

    ...I see nothing wrong in a gardener trying hard to improve their soil by the introduction of worms... even if the environment for those worms is less than ideal... maybe a little hostile even... but we can only but try and make it as friendly as we can for them so they can do their work...

    ..it's worth doing...and we should look at it positively....and really, there's no need for fuss... far worse things are going on in the world...wouldn't you say...?

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, far worse things are going on in the world than me trying to keep a newbie worm farmer from abusing her wigglers because she lacks the knowledge to properly care for them and indicated she would 'just keep trying until some of them lived' Eek!

    I just want to clarify one thing (I've had more than one private email regarding this bruhaha btw): I did not 'leave' this forum because ingrid was critical of my style of instruction. I left because I don't grow roses. I just try to squeeze a few tasty tomatoes and chili peppers from my arid soil. So there is literally nothing on this forum of interest to me. That's it. As I said before, y'all just go on back to your silly high school girl ways. (I'm in total agreement with Bart (and other private writers to me) on the mentality going on here.)

  • bart_2010
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I find your attitude a bit odd, Marlorena.I don't think I said anything offensive; "harsh" is not the same thing as "offensive". I thought about it before hand with care and said what I think.Comunication requires tolerance, and in order to practice tolerance at times we all must "sit on" our childish side and rise above it,and avoid having a hissy fit at the slightest implication that someone else is criticizing us. And, yes, there was a "need" for that post, because I do have opinions ,too, and frankly this kind of stuff sometimes really bothers me. Most of the time I try to keep my mouth shut and not get involved in this kind of silliness, but this time it cut into my right to discuss a garden question with a knowledgeable lady in the forum context. Clearly there are some people at least on this supposed forum who see it more as a sort of "mutual appreciation girl's club". Unlike Mary, I DO grow roses, so there is at times stuff that can be of interest to me, but in future I'll try to avoid certain forum members posts...
    And Mary, I apologize if I made it sound like I thought you "left in a huff" just because someone didn't approve of you. I certainly don't need Ingrid-or anyone else's -approval in order to say what I think. I repeat, I do not consider anything I said to be offensive,merely sincere,and I apologized in advance; enough. I'm not going out to buy a hair shirt just because some woman on Internet that I don't even know takes what I consider to be a passive-aggressive attitude at the slightest hint of criticism.

  • Marlorena
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, Bart, from what I can see, most gardening forums where roses are the main topic, tend to be occupied by mostly middle aged ladies, some older, some younger...and a few gentlemen thrown in.... I suppose you'll have to put up with that.... I don't see any High School silliness going on though, so that's passed me by there...

    ...it's an awful lot of fuss from one or two people about some worms that a member is using for her garden.... most of us don't seem to have a problem with it...

  • floridarosez9 Morgan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Geeze, Luweeze, what a tempest in a teapot over a handful of worms. I also felt Mary was condescending and jumped in with both feet when she hadn't properly read the post. I think, Bart, you were kind of precipitous with your comments. We don't have that many posters left on this forum (and Ingrid is one of the major contributors) that we can afford to be unkind to one another.

    I'm like Malorena in that I found nothing teenagerish about the posts. I would have had my feelings hurt also if Mary had jumped on me like that with no foundation for her comments. Let's be considerate of others feelings.

  • MaryMcP Zone 8b - Phx AZ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Let's just close this thread down and all move on to more productive pursuits.

    - As the worm turns....I promise to never venture into this snarly territory of ARF ever again. Y'all carry on with your worm experiments. Maybe the lil' squirmy wigglers will live. Maybe they won't. What the heck, they're only worms after all.

    m

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How many times will one person say "goodbye" before actually leaving?

    :-/

    ~Christopher

  • comtessedelacouche (10b S.Australia: hotdryMedclimate)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All,

    Since this thread seems to be descending rather rapidly into something resembling pure farce, complete with some truly delicious flouncings-off and flouncings back on again, I'll just say that, seriously, I am sincerely sorry for whatever part my note of sympathy to Ingrid may have contributed to the feelings of others here being offended in any way - this was certainly not my intention, and in retrospect, perhaps it would have been wiser to have emailed it to her privately - but unfortunately it didn't occur to me it would give rise to such a furore.

    Dear Bart, no-one to my knowledge has been ousted from this forum, by anyone! I'm sure you'll have no trouble consulting with Mary in the future, whether by email or via this or another Gardenweb forum if you both wish it, and I am so sorry that what has happened has made you feel somewhat alienated from this one. Clearly, there's some kind of background to this of which I'm unaware, but since I post so rarely here, I hope very much that my occasional contributions won't be a source of too much sorrow or disgust for you in future, though I can't unconditionally guarantee it! :-)

    Dear Mary, I feel I must apologise for any possible over-harsh wording towards you in my note to Ingrid. I could clearly sense she had been hurt by what you said, and just wanted to offer my support and sympathy to someone who I've observed being a great support and friend to others here over the years - I certainly didn't intend, as a result of it, to cause a further hurt to someone else! For me, what seemed like an especially sharp and personal tone in your enthusiasm to correct and educate Ingrid, and to defend the worms in her care, came as something of a shock. It just seemed to me to be both an unkind and disrespectful way to speak to a complete stranger on a forum you're new to, and unfair since it appeared to be based on various misreadings of what she had actually said. Others, from what you've indicated, have formed a different view, which is fine. It's fine for friends to have different viewpoints, that's just part of being human, no-one has the whole story!

    I'm sure there are many readers and posters here, myself included, who would greatly benefit from your knowledge in future. So, should you feel you'd like to make further contributions at any time to discussions here, I'm sure they would be warmly welcomed. I'm glad to hear you didn't feel you had to leave as a result of anything anyone said... and you're still here!

    To anyone one else who has been irritated or upset by anything I've said or done here, I can only say again, perhaps there's some sort of history behind all this of which I'm not aware - I had no idea that such passionate feelings were lurking beneath these seemingly calm and peaceful waters, and I'm so sorry for unwittingly crashing in and stirring it up - whatever 'it' is! If anyone would like to email me privately to enlighten me, or continue this exchange of views with a view to better understanding, you'd be most welcome. Having got past crying and then laughing over it all, I'm actually finding this discussion quite interesting, which may well be a sign of a seriously flawed mentality, or at least a extremely girly attitude...

    More than enough from me,

    A Very Happy New Year to All, and.. why don't we just keep working on that 'Peace on Earth' bit ... it's not necessarily easy, but I'm sure we can get there if we try!

    Comtesse :-)

  • rross
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Ingrid.
    I don't have much strength in my arms and can't go round mucking around with heavy trays but find a worm cafe very easy. Every morning, I just lift the lid, pour 2 litres of fresh water on the blanket covering the worms, and then I lift the blanket and put blended fruit and veg scraps under it.

    The leachate that drains into a container from this daily watering contains a lot of worm eggs and melted castings, and seems to work just as well on my roses as straight castings. I'm thinking of getting someone else to collect the accumulation of castings for themselves when the tray gets full. I once spent a lot of time separating worms from castings. Apart from feeling guilty about traumatising the worms and tired out by the whole process, I didn't see any great difference to the worm population in the soil, from just pouring on the daily dose of fresh leachate.

  • Sow_what? Southern California Inland
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a great topic. Not just a great topic -- a crucial one for all gardeners. Critical for the well being of our planet. Why? Because we're grappling with the issue of improving our soiI. And our soil supports life on Earth. And we've gotten it wrong long enough to really mess things up. So I think it's worth carrying on this conversation. I'm a novice gardener with no training in botany, so I look to people like Kim for his knowledge and experience. I do have a background in biochemistry and medicine, so I feel comfortable with scientific information such as that provided by the University of California system. And I'm a passionate gardener, immersed in the experience, and have been mulching and composting in a big way.

    Regarding compost v mulch, Catspa is exactly right. Mulch is organic matter (leaves, paper, kitchen scraps, wood chips, etc) that have not yet broken down. They can rob energy from the soil, so we don't mix mulch into the soil. We lay it on top of the soil where it helps hold in moisture, and insulates the soil from heat in the summer and cold in the winter. Mulch eventually breaks down (faster when moist), and when it does, it nourishes the soil.

    Compost is organic matter that has broken down completely and aged. It's leaves and paper and poop, and urine, and kitchen scraps, and garden clippings that have been completely transformed into rich, nourishing soil. It looks like soil, and it smells like fresh dirt. In an established bed we don't dig compost into the soil either. We lay it on top where with time it works into the soil and nourishes it. In a new bed, compost should be part of the mix, but preferably throughout the bed rather than just in planting holes.

    Ingrid, if I were you, I would buy good organic compost and spread it on top of your beds. Lay 4" of mulch on top of the compost. If you've already laid down mulch, don't worry. Just add compost on top; it'll work its way down. Then I would start a compost pile. Don't worry how complicated it is. If you get it wrong, you'll still end up with compost -- it'll just take longer. There are lots of ways to do it, but here's what I do to keep it simple (and it WORKS):

    1. Dig a hole. The bigger, the better.

    2. Throw in all your kitchen scraps, leaves, clippings, paper-based trash, coffee grounds, and manure. Whenever you throw in manure or yucky kitchen scraps, make a little depression first, put your scraps or manure in the depression, and then cover them completely with straw or leaves so there is no odor to attract critters. I have tons of critters that rip up my garden, but they never bother my compost holes. If you're concerned, cover the hole with wire.

    2. Keep the contents slightly moist (not wet).

    3. As you're filling up the compost hole, the decomposing materials will shrink, so you'll keep finding more room to keep adding.

    4. At some point stop adding stuff to this hole, and start another one while you let this hole sit. Do keep it slightly moist.

    5. Enjoy your compost. Yes, it will happen. Faster if the carbon waste and nitrogen waste are properly balanced, and it's kept moist, and it gets to the proper temperature. Slower if not. But so what? It's practically no work, you're helping the planet by recycling waste, and once you have the cycle going with a couple of holes (or piles, or however you want to do it), you're going to have rich, nourishing compost for your garden.

    No, I don't turn it. No, I don't shred stuff first. No, it doesn't get anaerobic and stink. Yes, it does work. You can spread the compost on your garden beds. Or you can leave the aged compost in the hole, add soil as needed to fill it, and use that rich new area as your next planting bed.

    jannike

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    rross and jannike, thank you for your very interesting and helpful comments. I've never heard of a worm cafe, but the idea is certainly interesting and sounds doable.

    jannike, I'm glad to see that I've already followed one of your suggestions, which is to put bagged organic compost on top of the mulch. For a while I could see the black compost but after the rain we've had it seems to pretty well have disappeared under the leaves. As the leaves have fallen off the trees lately (and they're moist from the rain), I've added those on top also.

    I never, ever throw out kitchen scraps. For years I put them and any garden debris under two trees in back of the house where no one could see them and the level always stayed the same, so I know it was going down into the soil. I think it may have helped to keep those trees alive during our drought when I rarely watered them, since it would have taken immense amounts of water to do it properly. Lately I've dumped the kitchen scraps in the large bowl I keep in the sink to catch the water used that has no detergent in it, which I then dump under the roses. Most of it isn't visible because I cover it with the leaf mulch that's already there.

    Despite all this, I have very few worms. I think when the house was built the topsoil was scraped off and what was left was decomposed granite. The previous owners were not by any stretch gardeners. We should have brought in topsoil and compost and made proper garden beds in each area. Instead we dug holes and planted roses and other plants immediately and that mistake has been difficult to rectify. The drought only made the situation worse. Still, I'll continue to do whatever I can to enrich the soil including adding worms, since we have so few, and adding more bagged organic compost around the plants. Given my wimpy energy level even the compost pits you describe seem a little more than I can manage, although they sound like a really good idea. I so appreciate the trouble you've taken with your long and very helpful post.

    Ingrid

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jannike, thanks for the tips about in-ground composting. Above-ground compost bins haven't worked well here -- too hard to keep them moist. I'm definitely going to try your method.

  • Lynn-in-TX-Z8b- Austin Area/Hill Country
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingrid,

    I have done exactly what Jannike describes. There are receptacles specifically for kitchen scraps earmarked for the garden that I have seen sold online. I just use a plastic ziplock bag and place the scraps in the refrigerator until I have enough ready to go outside; which does not take long.

    It has been about a year since I started this method, initially using it only in the planting beds on the side of my house. The soil in many areas here is commonly void of the organic matter that gardeners like to see. Well, I have worms, some are shockingly plump. However, at the same time that I began placing scraps in holes at the side yard, within a couple of weeks, I did the same for the raised planter in my backyard that is primarily sand with compost. I have been working on the soil (sand is more accurate) in that planter for 4 years and I have yet to see a worm. I have added a lot of compost, coffee grounds and the kitchen scraps. I am no expert in this area by any stretch of the imagination, but wonder how much the composition of the soil ( soil type??) factors into how well the wigglers do, and if there is a soil composition required to at least begin successfully creating an environment for worms ?

    Lynn

  • ROCKSnROSES
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We live on the side of a mountain and the soil is very rocky with not much organic matter. But where the soil is the best is where the huge maple trees shed their leaves. Any forest does the same. Nobody tills these leaves into the ground and the worms love it. Year after year they enrich the soil.

    Ruth Stout started this type of no dig gardening years ago based on the same principles back in the '60 's. Just adding thick layers of mulch on top every year.

    http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/ruth-stouts-system-zmaz04fmzsel.aspx#axzz3NsiO4cmM

    This is a video which shows how to do a mulching garden and is really informative
    http://www.backtoedenfilm.com/

    Since you water your roses, add amendments/mulch and have shady areas where you do have some worms, I'm sure the new worms won't die from 'frying' as they will stay in or move to the damp areas.

    Anywhere I've put newspaper or especially cardboard, the worms flock to it. They burrow themselves in the tunnels in the cardboard.

    One suggestion would be to water well -- add some amendments around each bush -- add the worms -- cover with wet newspaper or cardboard -- and then mulch on top This will keep the worms happy and moist. The further out from each bush that you can go the better. The above links give many ideas to cut down on work.

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The methods of inground composted described work quite well. One word of caution, if you have skunks, oppossums, rats or coyotes, table scraps, even just vegetable types, are sure to attract them. Even burying edibles in the ground results in something digging them up here. It must be coyotes as there are no stray dogs. Mine aren't allowed out back due to the slope and inability to prevent "wildlife" from passing through. Kim

  • jaspermplants
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I never throw away vegetable or fruit scraps, coffee grounds, eggshells, etc. They go straight into my soil. Same for dead leaves, etc. I consider all that gold for the soil. I just couldn't imagine throwing it away.

    I don't have to worry much about critters since I live in the middle of the city.

    Very important subject, I believe.