If Heirloom has maintained the one John Clements bought at the Old Rose Symposium at The Huntington from me years ago, it does flower continuously. The plant grew in an undeveloped area which has now been absorbed by The Chinese Pavilion there, so is gone. Someone discovered it and we made sure to propagate and spread it as far and wide as possible. It seemed the perfect mutation of the climber. Larger than Spray and ever-blooming, which the "cathedral eating", once flowering one isn't. Kim

I don't know about that "groups of three or six rule" in the case of Lady Ann Kidwell, JimD. She makes a pretty big splash with just one plant. I love her but a group of 3 of her would likely be stunning, literally! Your insights on the class are very interesting for me because I do not know much about them.

Are there other polyanthas similar to Lady Ann in bloom form, habit?

-- Debbie

I have some of Heirloom's old catalogs and remembered seeing Everblooming Cl. Cecile Brunner. I checked in the 1993 catalog and on page 43 they show Cecile Brunner the poly shrub version (3 ft and continual blooming), Climbing Cecile Brunner (20 ft and once blooming), and Spray Cecile Brunner (3-4 ft and repeat blooming). Found the Everblooming in the 1996 catalog. On page 66 it says:

"NEW! EVERBLOOMING CLIMBING CECILE BRUNNER (TM). Several years ago we asked our customers if anyone had a Cl. Cecile Brunner that was continuous blooming rather than once blooming. We have received three everblooming clones. This one is from Siskiyou Rare Plant Nursery. I have always been impressed with the glory of a 'Climbing Cecile Brunner' in full bloom. Now we can enjoy it throughout the season. Delicate, small, soft pink, sweetheart buds and blooms on a vigorous climber that may be also grown as a large shrub, continual blooming. 8 ft. as a shrub. 15 ft. as a climber. May be grown 20 ft. plus into a tree for a gorgeous sight. (1894-1996) PR110 9.95"

Does anyone know where Siskiyou got their plant?

My mother bought Climbing Cecile Brunner in the 1960s. I don't know from which nursery she bought it, but I think it was local. This plant is now a huge monster (think 25-30 ft.+), tree-climbing and eating anything in its path (I have to whack it back all the time). It also blooms throughout the year. Unfortunately, it is virused and looked rather ill for the first time this year after being stressed.:(

Melissa

Re spray Cecile Brunner being "3-4 feet". HA! The right hand side of this mass is one plant of Spray Cecile Brunner. It is at least 8 feet tall. (The rose on the left is Duchesse de Brabandt). Both of them have been growing there in my garden for at least 80-90 years.

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Jackie

I have the "regular" Cecile Brunner on the walkway to my front door and have so far managed to keep it at 3 to 4 ft. I love it there, it sort of gracefully sends it's blooms in a sort of haphazardly charming way. Some sort of climb, others are shorter, it's a really charming rose. I do trim it some each year so could possible grow bigger if I let it. Doesn't seem to mind being trimmed, I also have Perl D'or which I am trying to like, let's say I appreciate it, but am not loving it. It seems to get much larger than Cecile Brunner. It's easily 5-6 ft tall. I'm not sure why I don;t feel the same for it as Cecile Brunner.

I also have Aunt Margy's and it is still young but I'm liking it very much. Very healthy, good grower and the blooms are rather small but wonderfully charming.

I have 2 Marie Pavie's which are workhorses in my garden. Very healthy, bloom all the time, but keep to decent size. I like them very much.

I also have Mothersday which is a good rose but did die back some this summer which surprised me. It has recovered now and is beginning to bloom.

I love polyanthas; I think they add alot of charm to the garden. I wish I could fit in more.

Re: Lady Ann Kidwell bloom and habit. If you mean the candelabra effect, that is shared by a number of the tea-poly roses, including both the sports of Cecille Brunner as well as Lady Ann Kidwell. White Cecile Brunner is less likely to have candelabras and bloom in single or small sprays; Rita Sammons (deeper pink) blooms in enormous candelabras and can get to five or six feet over time. LAK is no slouch in growing; one stand I saw in Glendale had grown up to cover the side of a garage wall in height and half as wide. I was glad to see it as shortly thereafter it was trimmed down to 3 feet and suffered for it. Perle d'Or has pretty much the same bloom habit as does Pasadena Tournament and Red Sweetheart. Pink Gate is thought to be a descendant of CB x a seedling and falls into the candelabra or small spray group.

Thanks for the responses on the Everblooming Climbing Cecile Brunner. Heirloom Roses still has it listed, under their rambler category. Here's a link :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Everblooming climbing Cecile Brunner

The only polyantha I have is Gabrielle Privat, and it isn't very large but does bloom a lot.

One not mentioned is Petite Francoise. I really love it because of the daintiness of the blooms. Mine is only a year old so can't say too much about the bush itself, but it did bloom some. In this pic, Petite Francoise is the little pink spray sticking up.

Marie Pavie loves the PNW. I have a small hedge of the Vintage MP and it is very healthy and blooms a lot here.

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I ended up taking Marie Pavie out and giving her away. She suffered badly from black spot where I had her. Apparently she loves her new home so everyone is happy.

Another Poly no one has mentioned is Leonie Lamesch. I have a tiny one that had one bloom. I like it because the coloring is so different. Does anyone else grow LL?

One more as yet unmentioned poly is my favorite of all: Rosenprinzessen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosenprinzessen at HMF

I love the polys and I try to get people to plant them instead of knock-outs, since many are nearly as hardly and continuously in bloom. The various Maries and Perle d'Or are reliable recommendations for beginners. I have an emotional attachment to the Kosters. There was a Margo Koster by my parents' back door. She was well established when we moved in in 1961 and lasted until 2002. Now, thanks to Cliff, I have the whole family.

I like the fragrant Polyanthas I've encountered quite a lot and hope to get more of them. I have the following varieties:
'Spray Cecile Bruenner'
'Perle d'Or'
'Lady Ann Kidwell'
'Marie Pavie'
'Katherina Ziemet'
'Yvonne Rabier'.
The last two arrived in the garden last spring and I haven't had as much time to get to know them but I like what I've seen so far.
I like the delicate stems and foliage of the Polyanthas that go so well with their elegant little flowers; SCB, PdO, and MP are all very sweetly scented; I don't know yet about LAK. They're also satisfactory in being easy to root, at least, so I've found with all the varieties I've tried; and they do very well in my dry and hot summer/chilly wet winter conditions. Lovely roses: I'm a fan.

So, it appears the Cecile Brunner side of the group attracts me. I just love the look of Pasadena Tournament in the photos on HMF. I hadn't heard of it before, but now I will be looking. I'm glad I put Lady Ann Kidwell in a spot where she can expand -- a garage-wall-size polyantha!

The other polyantha I have is Little White Pet, which I got to have the scent of Felicite Perpetue without its house-eating size.

I wouldn't want to try to list mine. Climbing Cecile Brunner is a favorite. I adore Lady Ann Kidwell. In my garden of many ramblers dozens of seedlings come up by themselves every year. Most of them are polyanthas. Some of these are outstanding.
Thanks for the stunning photos!

The polys encompass so many different parents that it becomes impossible to generalize.

I wish that Leonie LaMesch's sister Eugenie LaMesch weren't lost. There are references from the early 1900s about how charming the two looked growing together. (Not by the hybridizer, BTW)

Everyone in the east should grow The Fairy simply because it blooms later than many of the roses in gardens. It can withstand neglect in at least two southern states and I've got it growing at the base of a Butternut tree right now. Never watered nor sprayed. Blooms consistantly when its time is right.

My best white poly is Jerabek's Snowbelt.

Anda (the deep red single poly) hasn't done that well; some folks from Atlanta said it needs great soil and lots of fertilizer and water to be its best (so it needs to go to a HT bed)

Ex von Schu reblooms better every year it gets older. The blooms also dry true to color and that is worth remembering. Leaf color is that bright green that we don't see often in roses.

Speaking of leaf color: if you have the eastern red acidic clays, you owe yourself a try of some Orleans Rose polys and their offspring and sports. In my red clays (that need gypsum to break apart), the Orleans family thrive and never get chlorosis. Watch for the one called Golden Salmon Superior (that Roses Unlimited rediscovered); it is a vibrant orange that happily sports to the deeper red versions. I don't think they are propagating it now, but it should be kept going. Pickering also offers some of the Orleans Rose polys on multiflora, esp. some of the purple ones. They look similar at midsummer, but in fall the different colors make a great looking tapestry. -

Pink Pet goes fairly deciduous here after the foliage takes on autumn tints. Much of it was bronzy-green to red recently with a bit of gold. Its canes redden nicely while it's bare. Very healthy in my garden. Mrs. William G. Koning grows at a friend's house in rather poor soil. It's not quite two feet tall and full of white, blushed pink cupped blooms even in the cold temps recently. It makes a very nice bedding rose. Kim

I have

Anda in a pot. I love its clusters of large dark red singles, gets black spot. Mine is tiny at the end of its 2nd season.

Borderer - fantastic, disease free, repeats well and stays small, maybe 2' x 3.5'.

Clotilde Soupert - wonderful blooms here. My two are almost covered now. No black spot issues but after her bloom for a short time she can get ugly with aging yellow leaves, but usually she is densely foliated.

CS, Climbing - just planted in Feb. Perfectly green and big already. No BS and no flowers yet. May need more sun.

Etoile de Mai - Strappy flowers like Perle d'Or but very pale yellow to white. Surprisingly tall at 2 yrs old, about 5' and narrow but only about 3 canes. She just recently is showing chlorosis which Pd'O did very badly and had to leave. I'll have to give EdM some sulfur and/or iron. She's in shade all summer.

Lauren - fantastic, healthy except for cycling through old leaves, beautiful deep mauve pompoms, nice foliage. Mine's in a pot. I trim it with each bloom, and it gets to 3x2.5.

Leonie Lamesch - Bigger than I thought it would be. Since Feb in a pot, she has thrown about four 5' canes, so I put her in the ground last month. Charming flowers and great healthy foliage. We'll see how she likes my neutral soil.

Mary Guthrie - Beautiful, large bright pink single. Not the best BS resistance but not bad. I was thinking about taking her out, but I changed my mind. I love the blooms.

Pinkie, Cl - Haven't seen a lot of bloom yet in 15 months. Pretty healthy and bushy.

Rita Sammons - Very delicate plant, tiny leaves and tiny flowers. End of 2nd season; she hasn't grown or bloomed much because she was shaded by a Giant Apostle's Iris until recently.

White Pet - this is a beautiful plant. The leaves are dark green, perfectly healthy and a beautiful contrast to the white flowers.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Thanks for the report, Sherry. I'm glad Lauren pleases you! She doesn't seem to suffer from the chlorosis issues here Baby Faurax and many of the other multiflora based polys do. Kim

Kim, I have Lauren in a gallon pot blooming away. I think it will be a nicer plant than Baby Faurax.

Thanks Pamela. Here, it's always been a much nicer plant. It flowers more continuously, has no chlorosis issues and is a much more attractive plant. It's also quite fertile, so I'm using it for breeding. Kim

I have three Caldwell pinks in a bed, and 3 Perle 'd or in a bed. I love their effect together, and they are much more beautiful than I thought they would be.

For what it's worth, La Marne always had sort of a dirty look to it. Perhaps it was my climate.

I am so glad to hear and see other Polyanthas, and will purchase more soon.

Jackie and Mike thanks for your pictures.

Tammy, thank you for the thread, and I am thrilled to read all of the other responses.

Sammy

J&P brought out Sweet Nothings a few years ago and it's been wonderful here. Quite fragrant, flowers heavily and as violet as any other. If you can find one, it's well worth adding to your garden. It's classed as a miniature, but that's only because they figured a poly wouldn't sell. All of the established polys could easily be reclassed as minis. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Sweet Nothings

Oh Kim, it's no fair tell us about a wonderful rose that is so hard to find! LOL

I love Polyanthas and here's another vote for Gabrielle Privat, my favorite of all I've tried. It always looks good, always in bloom, beautiful very healthy foliage, stays small and does great in a pot.

The flowers look a lot like those of Gartendirektor Otto Linne.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gabrielle Privat

I think it's amazing that Lauren does well in Sherry's humid Florida climate, in Pam's climate, as well as in my humid, cool climate. It blooms well and the foliage has stayed very clean. Really nice rose for me!

Wonderful to hear, Gean, thank you! I've been blessed in my selection process. I seem to have hit on the ones which are adaptable to a very wide section of the country's climates. They're even performing well in European climates.

Sweet Nothings isn't that hard to find Roselee. I'll email you directly, if it's turned on. Kim

Hmm. Wonder what happened to my last post?

I said that I'd also love to know where I can find a Sweet Nothings. The pictures on HMF look alot like Heinrich Karsch but with more petals.

I also wonder if anyone has grown a Poly called Anna-Maria de Montravel. The pictures on HMF look nice and the "lily of the valley" fragrance is intriguing. The one comment on HMF isn't very flattering but it could just be a location issue, right?

Thanks. Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I haven't grown Anne-Marie de Montravel, but I did see it at Eurodesert in Morongo Valley, CA on a number of occasions this year. It seemed to be thriving in the dry heat of the desert. Whether it would like humid heat I can't say. I just uploaded to HMF a picture I took of it on May 8 when it was just about to start blooming. I saw it a few/several times after that when the flowers were open, and it presented quite a charming picture. A profuse bloomer.

Melissa

Jeff, I did, when I lived in Alabama. I posted then as duchesse_nalabama (duchesse for duchesse de brabant) I didn't have it long enough to tell you for sure how I liked it - BUT I'm attaching a thread that has a picture of Anna Marie de Montreval posted from someone in Louisiana. It's the pic that caused me to buy it, lol. Consider yourself warned!

Here is a link that might be useful: anna marie de montreval

I have grown Anna-Marie de Montreval for over a dozen years. Here in Southern California, zone 9/21, it gets to be about a foot to a foot and a half high; the blooms are atypical of polys, resembling little pearls before they open. The color is white and it stays white; the sporting intinct common to some other polys seems to be dormant. There may be mildew issues in the early spring. However, the plant is a generous bloomer. John Bagnasco has been attempting to breed with it in order to transmit the scent to another flower, but so far the scented varieties seem to be prone to mildew or lack of vigor. It has the same genetic heritage as Mme Cecile Brunner, but apparently little of the climbing instinct. I propagated a half dozen of these plants for our September Celebration and all of them sold out very quickly. BTW, it is a great container plant. JimD

Hmm. Lost another post.

Thanks for your input on Anna-Marie. I think I'm going to have to add it to an order that will arrive in the spring.

odd about lost posts: I posted the following yesterday, but it disappeared:
Talking about polyanthas: Kim Rupert's 'Little Butterfly' has been re-classified from a shrub to a polyantha. This three or four foot bloom machine produces large sprays of single pink and white blooms that almost obscure the foliage when it blooms. It is relatively care free here in southern California except for the basics of sun, water and occasional fertilizing. My first plant of it was budded and it has been a great disappointment with lots of dieback, but the second plant is OR and has been stellar from the start.

In other news, there is a new sport of 'The Gift.' 'Pink Gift' has been around for about ten years or so, putatively discovered by Joyce Demits, and offered by the now dormant Mendocine Heriloom Nursery. The new sport is a deeper pink or light red in bloom with the same mannerly habit of the pink sport, much less invasive and spreading than the original. The sport was discovered by Becky Yaanlios and will be named 'Chloe Eileen,' after her granddaughter. I picked up a plant of this at the CCRS Rare Rose Auction last month and expect it to be available in the future at that locale. Both 'Pink Gift' and 'Little Butterfly' are not now commerically offered, but are sort of pass-along plants.

I forgot that I also have Sweet Nothings, which was already here when we bought the house, so I'm not 100% sure of its identity, but this rose has been a winner. It's a great bloomer, totally carefree, and I love the coloration. La Marne had the dirty color that Sammie mentioned and it's no longer with me. Heinrich Karsch was pretty but didn't like the heat here. Baby Faurax ditto. Violet Hood was another casualty and I didn't care much for its appearance. It could just be my climate. Marie Daly is pretty but the blooms collapsed almost immediately in a spot that was obviously too hot for it. I had Leonie Lamesch in another garden, but it always looked too modern for my taste, but that's just me. I don't think I've found the perfect polyantha for my garden yet, except for Sweet Nothings. It remains to be seen if Baptiste LaFaye will be the top contender once it grows up.

Ingrid

I notice that most of the posts here are in warmer areas of the country than me. I only grow two polys, Marie pavie, and Lullaby, and both are small but do well and are better than average in terms of health. I planted Caldwell Pink in my mother's garden and it did well there but I didn't like the flowers for being scentless. I got rid of Perle d'Or, Marie Daly, and White Pet for struggling with blackspot and these never got more than a foot high or so. I think it's because my Mid-Atlantic area has a difficult combination of cold winters and high blackspot pressure that more polys have not done well here.

I grow Kim's Little Butterfly, too. I bought it from Burlington Roses; I think that she still carries it. Sad that three nurseries in Europe carry it and only Burlington Roses here. but I'm glad she does!

I have 5 CHINA DOLL, and love them.. on Fort., from Nelson's... never BS, and never stop blooming, a real little marvel... would like to get some more but can't find any, on Fort.... wonder why ? I don't like the 'WEEPING CHINA DOLL', never performed well for me. and that seems to be the only one available, if at all... sally

Here are my favorites:

CLOTILDE SOUPERT (1890) - blush white. Tight rotund buds open into perfectly quartered medium sized translucent white blossoms blushed a delicate lilac-pink in the middle. The flowers are so beautiful they are almost surreal, that is when they bother to open. The flowers have a tendency to "ball" in anyplace where the summer temps don't go above 85 degrees Fahrenheit. The Climbing Sport (1902) doesn't ball nearly as bad. Good cut flower with extended vase life. Intense, very sweet fragrance. Canes are nearly thornless and the plant is almost always in bloom. The climber will bloom the first year in the ground. Good disease resistance to black spot but prone to powdery mildew. In spite of her faults remains my favorite Polyantha. The climber is a must have for Southern gardeners who appreciate antique roses.

LULLABY (1953) - charming little rosettes with a green button eye. PROFUSE, constant bloom. Nice compact (3x2) shrub and very good to excellent disease resistance. The light fragrance is the only drawback. A must have for cottage gardens.

MARIE DALY - light pink sport of Marie Pavie. Tiny high centered flowers open into formless flowers. Not much as a cut flower but phenomenal as a landscape plant. Strong, spicy fragrance you can smell from several feet away. Good (not great) disease resistance. Nearly thornless. Gets a bit bigger (4x3) than Lullaby but can be kept compact with pruning. A favorite of my MIL.

MARIE PAVIE (1888)- ivory; see Marie Daly for details.

PERLE D'OR (1875) - blush apricot. High centered apricot buds open into charming white blossoms blushed delicate apricot pink. Not much of a cut flower but pretty in the garden. Strong, spicy fragrance. Growth habit similar to Marie Daly/Pavie but the canes are slightly more wire-like due to China Rose parent. Thornless or nearly thornless. Good disease resistance. A must have for kitchen gardens.

I recently ordered China Doll from Rogue Valley Roses, but they're not sending it just yet since it's too small. I've had it before and loved it, and have tried for years to get it again and haven't succeeded until now. I wonder whether this rose is particularly difficult to propagate.

Ingrid

China Doll was budded for decades by Week's Roses and sold out each year because of its great popularity for landscaping. Unfortunately, they don't produce that one anymore.

The difficulty in propagating polyanthas is their lack of buds. You'll frequently get canes containing three or four growth buds in half or less of the cane, the rest being the actual flower cluster. That cluster has most often been unused for propagation as they seem not to contain growth buds. You have to cut most of the plant off each year to have enough cuttings to make enough of them for the next season, unless you grow many stock plants.

Unless you're producing them under mist, where one or two growth buds per cutting are easily successful, most cuttings require virtually the whole cane each. That severely limits the number of cuttings available each year for production. Kim

I'm wondering if there is anyone with experience with White Pet, Anna-Marie de Montravel and Lullaby who can comment on the differences between these. The pictures I've seen look fairly similar to me and am wondering about the differences in order to choose between them since I unfortunately can't get them all.

While we're comparing, throw in Seafoam to the mix. I know it's classed as a shrub not a poly but please compare/contrast away--I think I'll learn something.

I just commented on another thread that thorns don't bother me like they do some people. But Sea Foam bothered me.

I like to prune in the winter and spring, and then just barely trim after that. Sea Foam will send out branches that will invade all the other roses. It will become so full of blooms, then have to be trimmed or it looks dirty.

We had 3 or 4 Penelopes, and 3 Sea Foams behind them. Once they were mature, we had a terrible mess. We ended up taking out the Sea Foam. At selected times during the year, the display of all these roses together was magnificent, but the thorns made it difficult to care for. As you would pull out the Sea Foam branch, it or another would flip towards you head or arms, and you would get many scratches.

I would never compare it to my other nice Polyanthes. They were very large and aggressive.

Sammy

I have grown White Pet, Lullaby, and Anna-Marie de Montreval for over ten years. White pet was cited in a study at Montreal gardens for its resistance to blackspot. In Southern California blackspot is fairly rare, so I cannot comment per se on its disease resistance to that particular blight. It is unlike other polys because it has no multiflora in its genetic makeup, as it is a sport of 'Felicite et Perpetua,' a Hybrid Sempervirens. It shows up a lot on socal show tables with large sprays of double white flowers unfolding from pink to red buds. Anna-Marie de Montreval has the same parentage as Mlle Cecile Brunner, but presents relatively smallish sprays of blooms that resembles pearls on a string. Both WP & AMM do not rise to any great height; they operate at the foot to a foot and a half in height and slightly wider in girth. AMM also have a unique lily of the valley scent; John Bagnasco has been experimenting with crosses to obtain the scent in another plant. So far, some of the offspring have had scent, but not without mildew or some other curse. AMM is part of the tea-poly group of polyanthas, but is not as disease resistant as some others. Its small size restricts its abilities to win at show tables; I can only recall once in the last ten years that AMM won a trophy. For breeding purposes, WP is not utile; and AMM carries some baggage.

Lullaby presents medium sized sprays, relatively tightly knit, of double blooms occasionally with a green button eye. It grows to twice the height of the other two plants, shows up frequently at the show table and the trophy table. It is a cross of Mlle Cecile Brunner without the spacey candalabra effect. Iirc, there is some souliana in its background. Again the disease resistance is high and the plant is very adaptable to good soil, bad soil, and responds beautifully to pampering and cosseting. From my vantage point all three roses are winners. Neither Lullaby nor AMM present pink in the bud or bloom, and are eminently suitable to a white garden effect....

I agree with Jim's appraisals above. But, I can add that when budded and not pruned heavily, White Pet can build to a fairly large size. I maintain one in a garden in Valencia, CA, allowed to throw itself through an Yves Piaget where it pushes through that rose's angular growth habit, filling in the blank spaces and appearing as if it is the Baby's Breath in the huge bouquet created by Yves. In an open situation, own root and pruned regularly, it should maintain the smaller size so often reported. In this position, it appears to "climb" to light and Yves definitely gives it support like trees and other larger plants give climbers as they scramble into the open. Kim

does anyone know the providance of
"everblooming Cecille Brunner"? or who first found it and introduced it. The photo shows a climbing rose.

Spray 'Cecille Brunner' is my favorite Poly, for it blooms more often than the smaller original plant.
Perle d'Or
Anna Marie de Montravel' I loved this rose, it seemed like a garden edged with pearls, but was blanketed with p.m. most of the year so it had to go.
Borderor' I love this rose now blooming on christmas eve, and darker pink than Mlle. Cecille Brunner, in the same bed.
The Fairy" I love best in a pot so its canes drape downwards. One of the healthiest roses in our no spray garden.
Leonie Lamesch I think of tropical punch when I see this rose in bloom, gets up to 6 feet tall here in California. Love its foliage too, very distinctive.
Mary Pavie such a sweet plant.
Mevrouw Natalie Nypels'a great poly for the ages.
Mrs. R.M.. Finch' lovely round platters of bloom. very late bloomer a chritmas rose.
Little White Pet. Makes a great border plant, very rapid rebloom and very floriferous.

I'd like to add The Gift and Violet Hood to my garden, if I can find them.

Luxrosa

I don't know why polyanthas should be so rare in Sweden but one hardly sees them except in strict period plantings. Katharina Zeimet is the only one widely grown perhaps because it is so hardy. I have that and Marie Pavie and half a dozen of Mevrouw Natalie Nypels,

Lux, back in the eighties and nineties when I volunteered at The Huntington Library, there weren't "everblooming" Cl. Cecile Brunners to be had. You could buy the bush, spray or spring flowering climber. Clair Martin told the volunteers of a continuous flowering one up the hill from the Study Plot where the once flowering and found roses grew, behind the Japanese Garden. We propagated that plant and sold it at every sale, Rose Festival and Symposium for quite a few years. I personally sold plants of it to John Clements of Heirloom at the Symposium when he also bought Moonsprite and Morey's Pink, neither of which they knew or grew previously. I understand they currently list the source of their everblooming Cl. Cecile Brunner as some nursery, but he also purchased several one gallon, own root plants of it from me at that Huntington Old Rose Symposium.

That plant was a literal room. It took to the trees and festooned itself through them, hitting the ground many places and taking root before exploding back up into the canopy to throw itself in more directions. It did flower year round in San Marino, near Pasadena, CA and received nothing other than rain, ground water and fallen leaves for food and mulch. They had no record of it even being there. Someone "discovered" it when clearing some brush and brought it to their attention.

If you'd like cuttings of Violet Hood, I should have it still in a five gallon can, waiting for somewhere to plant it. I collected all of the Lens purple hybrid multifloras and have only retained Violet Hood, Rosy Purple and Sibelius. I like Rosy Purple best. Kim

To add to the discussion about repeat blooming Mlle Cecile Brunner: The catalogs of the teens and twenties and discussions by Captain Thomas and others are very clear that the climbing versions of Cecile Brunner and (clotilde Soupert) were everblooming. Now, unless Thomas and others were fibbing, or couldn't recognize the difference between repeat bloom and non-repeat, something had to be lost between those days and the re-appearance of these roses later in the century. I think what happened was that the roses in questions dropped out of commerce--certainly out of mainstream commerce--and eventually passalong plants of dubious merit became part of the currency of CB. I would suspect that the prevalence of once and sparse reblooming CBs would be a function of their comparative vigor in propagation as compared with those with the more recessive trait. As popular as the CB blooms were in the first quarter of the 20th century, they did fall out of favor in the thirties and beyond.....

I think you hit that nail squarely on the head, Jim. Unskilled people collecting buds selected the vigorous growth which didn't repeat as they could get more from less material. To regain that ever blooming character, you'd either need the judicious bud selection Gean quoted about General Jacqueminot from Nicholas' book, or the fortuitous recovery of an old, original clone which demonstrates it.

There were actually many plants sent out of Spray Cecile Brunner before it was "discovered" as both climbing and bush forms, but primarily as the climber. To the thread about confused varieties, we should probably add Bloomfield Abundance and Spray Cecile Brunner. It's probably very safe to say anything available in the US as Bloomfield Abundance IS Spray Cecile Brunner. BA was a Wichurana hybrid. Everything we have here as BA is definitely a form of Mlle. Cecile Brunner, with nothing in common with Wichurana. Kim

Kim

Browsing their full band inventory, I've found Vintage is offering the following, which should be quite interesting in many of our gardens.

Frau Astrid Spath Striped

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.17495.1

Spray Cecile and White Cecile Brunner. They have MANY polys available now, most of which will fall out of commerce in this country when and if they are no longer around. Kim

I grow only three, Phyllis Bide, Marie Pavie, and Perle d'Or. MP is probably my favorite because of its wafting fragrance, but PdO is looking pretty fine to me right now.

Rosefolly