I have SDLM, golden celebration and Don Juan, pink and red, all three were planted this past spring and have thrived in my hot and humid Texas climate. I only water once a week and then hopefully we get rain in between. Sweet chariot is on my wish list and I am going to be getting blush noisette this spring, it is supposed to tolerate the heat very well. Sounds like you are going to have a beautiful garden.

'Sweet Chariot' and other roses with strong 'R. multiflora' influence may have issues for you if your soil is alkaline -- they are prone to chlorosis. Of course, if you find this to be the case, you do have options for adding soil amendments to circumvent this -- or simply grow those roses in pots.

I can't say much else since I'm in a totally different climate from you.

:-)

~Christopher

For a smaller garden Buff Beauty might grow into too large a bush, and in my experience at least it doesn't bloom as often as some of the others. My best rose in a hot and dry climate (but with cooler and wetter winters) is Souvenir de la Malmaison. Gorgeous and fragrant, although not my best cutting rose. Still, it has so many blooms that 2-3 days vase life is not a problem. For me the climber Lady Hillingdon is much better than the bush, which for me was never very bushy and not as attractive. Good fragrance, lovely color, nicely scented for a tea rose. I love La France, large, gorgeous blooms, great fragrance (if you like a citrus component), and a reasonably good cut flower. Sombreuil is very thorny and may also be too large for you. Since I dislike red roses I can't recommend Don Juan, but that's strictly a personal preference. Climbing White Maman Cochet is praised universally and looks very romantic, not with the stiff canes of Don Juan. Blush Noisette is fragrant and lovely in the garden, but I doubt that it would be long-lasting for cutting. I would take a chance with Sweet Chariot, it's such a lovely little rose with a great lavender color. Golden Celebration is very popular, with large flowers, and the only reasons I wouldn't choose it is because it's a rather a strong yellow and might clash with a pink like La France, but again that's a personal decision. I'm afraid I don't know anything about Perdita.

Ingrid

Thank you, you guys! Ask and you shall receive... great input!

I have had three of these before-- Sombreuil, Buff Beauty, and SdlM. But mine were too young and in such a different climate, I did not want to make a judgment on them. One I *really* wanted was Lady Emma Hamilton, but I cannot find it in the band size. Same with Lady Hillingdon in the climbing form. My most favorite rose colors are orangey apricot, pale pinks, and then grey purples. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a reliable grey-purple in my search. My husband likes red HT forms.

Boncrow66-- thank you! Do you have Don Juan as an own root?

Christopher-- thanks for the heads up! I would just amend the soil if that happens, I think. But that is definitely something to consider. I have her on the list because she seems to produce a shade of flower I really like. I have Vielchenblau here, but I figured she would not translate well into the new climate.

Ingrid-- thank you! I must admit I was looking at several of your posts amongst a few others whom I zeroed in on as potentially having similar climate attributes. I guess I should mention that although I want to keep the garden small (as we intend to grow basically all our own food, so most room will be saved for orchards, vegetables, and a field with rotation between wheat and chickpeas/lentils), we do actually have... space... lol. But you know how that goes. If you "know" you have space, then the roses keep falling into the cart. Or at least that is how it worked for me in the past. We actually have at least 2.1 acres. We haven't divided our piece from the joint piece yet, and depending on how the division goes, we could end up with even more than that. We're hoping to get the whole north hillside and valley bottom as well, and I had considered mermaid on the hill as I thought it could be pretty and serve as a barrier. But that is another story. Blush Noisette and Sweet Chariot are in the "not cutting roses" group, but I thought color and bloom would make up for it. I also figured I would arrange Golden Celebration to be out of sight of other lighter colors. Part of what I am envisioning for arbors are actually more like big pergolas where you could sit 6 or so people underneath. By the way, do you remember where you got your SdlM and is it own root?

Daisy-- it is nice to talk to you again! You were another person whose posts I read fanatically trying to get an idea of what worked and what did not. I think we have about the same amount of rain, although ours is over less months. That clay layer really evens things out though. I had never understood how it was people there were not watering their geraniums, tomatoes, and such, and suddenly it made more sense.

One of the things we have are several large oak trees. I had thought about the edges of their shade for some of the more tender things, although another alternative would be to plant something like Golden Celebration in the house shade if it works that way. Do you think it is worth having?

What attracts me to Lady Hillingdon is the color. I have Mlle Franziska Kruger and cannot for the life of me pick out much in the way of a scent. That tends to make me prejudiced against other teas. So I keep going back and forth between axing it or Buff Beauty. My SdlM did that as well, but it was so young I didn't take that as an indication of anything (not bloom much I mean). The one flower I did get was amazing. Now I am rethinking it again.

As an aside, I keep searching for seeds of Lotus maculatus and am coming up totally blank. Do you know of a source? I like it as a companion.

julianna, my GC gets about 5 hours of sun a day. Before I moved it, it was getting about 10 hours a day in midsummer. It was only burnt on the edges of the petals on the hottest days, so it can take the sunshine. I wouldn't put it in full shade.
You are lucky to have some large oak trees. If you plant any roses near them, it might be best to use the box method of planting.

I have also looked for Lotus maculatus seeds without any joy.
However, you may find plants of Lotus bertholetii in the local garden centres in spring. That is where I found mine. The garden centres here are hopeless, but I find if I visit regularly and keep my eyes open, I occasionally find some gems.
L maculatus and L bertholetii are very similar so it would do the same job.
I can't find a decent photo of my Lotus bertholetii but here it is with some alstromerias.
In winter it has Galanthus elwesii growing through it.
Daisy

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This post was edited by daisyincrete on Fri, Dec 12, 14 at 10:14

Daisy-- that is my other choice for Lotus! And I cannot find seeds for that either. Sigh. When we move, I'll just have to keep my eyes open. I have found interesting things in people's yards that I may be able to propagate, and some garden centers had nice things-- but it was so hit and miss on the ornamental front. What is worse in a way is when they have exactly what I want but not for sale and keep suggesting that they have it in a smaller size... but what they show me is totally different. I saw a gorgeous graptoveria which was apparently not for sale even though it was in the rows. But then the man showed me a kalanchoe and insisted it was the same plant in a smaller pot. They don't even look alike. Yours is stunning.

I'm hoping more to use the oaks more as a back drop, but we will see. We are hoping to put in a couple of terraces, but we also do not want to kill any of the existing trees (except maybe a couple... people have been hacking on a few for firewood so they are in poor shape) and will lift the natives before we did it and place them back if they are small enough. On the terrace sides, my husband doesn't think we will have enough stone to wall them so I planned on planting a variety of natives, cacti, and succulents to retain the soil. The tops would be fruit trees and some soft scape flowers that would work in the rainy seasons like nasturtiums, CA poppies, etc.

So roses would be up top by the house. Luckily, since we have not separated the piece yet, we also have not built a house so I can add the garden plans to that and place the house in such a way that I have space. I am not sure how they calculate land sizes in Crete, but Jordan does it differently than I am used to which is by surface area. Instead, they take the highest point of the land and draw out an imaginary line and use that as the standard. So hillsides do not count in the same way, but are far less than how we would calculate it.

This is the basic hilltop we are looking at:
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and more of where we wanted to situate the house. This would also be where the roses would go. You can see some of the larger oaks and the view of Syria, Jordan, and Israel.

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This is down on the hillside which would also be part of it... more oaks, swaths of native iris, crocus, sea squill, and many other things like native narcissus! There is also an apiary across the valley in Syria less than a kilometer away.

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This is the valley floor which is also part of the property, and looking up the hillside.

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Some of the pictures (the more brown ones) are from before the rains really started. It will get greener still. This is a shot nearby my husband took a few days ago (he is still there).

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Julianna, what an incredible property you have. Please do disregard any comment I made about a rose being too large! Your property has such huge potential for gardening, and I imagine your plantings will also be a boon to the local wildlife.

My Souvenir de la Malmaison is own-root and was bought from Chamblee's Nursery in Texas. I've just recently bought two more own-root SdlM from the Antique Rose Emporium since it's such a stellar performer for me. I'm amazed that it did so poorly for Daisy who seems to be able to grow anything. Daisy, the picture of Sombreuil with the bench underneath is exquisite. I don't think I've ever seen this rose used in a more beautiful way.

Ingrid

Oh Ingrid! No, you made the perfect comment about space. I am trying to self-limit, and it pays to hear what you know inside... that something may require more space than you have or want to give. But yes, I do have the space. Also, I was unclear and had said small garden which could mean just about anything! I didn't give a size since I don't really know. I do know we'll have a lot of food growing up top by the house, so that puts a damper on running free with rose space... although I am still plotting on perhaps lining the vegetables with flowers, and despite my husband saying he hates plants on walls (??) I think it would be gorgeous to have some low climbers trained on a wall surrounding a vegetable garden. But that's just me. :)

I am also somewhat surprised. In my notes I have SdlM as being a great rose, but my climate was so totally different. I am glad to hear yours was own root. I know some things do better/worse depending on being grafted or not. I am assuming your soil is alkaline naturally? Do you amend to make it more neutral?

One thing to note is that the hillside is currently being used by squatters to graze goats. When we move there, we will fence it. But part of the barrenness of the area has to do with heavy grazing.

Edited to add: my husband just said he was thinking about 1000m^2 (about a quarter of an acre) for a flower garden.

This post was edited by julianna on Fri, Dec 12, 14 at 16:20

I just spoke with my husband who said he was thinking of 1000m^2 (about 1/4 acre) for a flower garden.

julianna, I'm in quite a different climate so this might not be helpful but I wanted to comment on Sweet Chariot and suggest an alternative. I have tried to grow Sweet Chariot and found it to be an utter black-spot mess, even with spraying. I replaced it with Vineyard Song, which is a similar rose in look and habit - compact, IMO nicer foliage, very fragrant. I got mine as a band from Heirloom.

What a beautiful view you have, thank you for sharing your photos.

What beautiful land you have. I hope you're able to turn it into the Eden you evidently have in mind.
Melissa

Ratdogheads-- thank you for the alternative suggestion! I will look that one up. It's not one I am familiar with.

Melissa-- Thank you! The fruit and vegetable part won't be hard as that is already done there all the time. The floral part is sometimes done, but not often. It's just not part of the culture. Part of the problem is they believe in weed control in orchards and yards via plowing. So they plow their land several times per year. The soil is deep, though, deep and loose but above and below the clay layer in spots. Also different is the idea of adding organic matter, something which is simply not done other than the plowing weeds under. Mulching-- also unheard of. So I come with several "odd" ideas, but ones that are more than do-able on the small scale.

I like the idea of putting in gravel and concrete paths and I am not so sure about my husband's idea of 1,000 m^2 for an ornamental garden. I think it would mean I would need to incorporate a few edibles for sure, like artichokes, citrus trees, loquats, etc. Then I worry about shading things too much.

Terraces are new to me too. I am not sure how much one could fit on 2 terraces or so that are 118ft wide and unwalled. I wish I had a terraced garden plan to compare with of a garden I liked, like Daisy's. :)

Yes, Julianna, my soil is alkaline, being decomposed granite, which translates into small rocks interspersed with sand. When we bought this house the "garden" consisted of five plots of grass. What I should have done is heavily amended those plots before planting anything, but stupidly we just took out the grass and dug holes for the plants, adding bagged potting soil. I'm trying to rectify my mistake by adding lots of leaves as mulch and lately also bagged soil amendment. I hope eventually this will improve the soil, but it will never be as good as it would have been had I done it right the first time.

One quarter of an acre should be a respectable space for an ornamental garden, and with your soil and climate I think you'll be able to create something really wonderful.

Ingrid

Hi ... Weighing in a bit late ... I probably wouldn't add ANYTHING, but I think our conditions are very similar. (I am along the SoCal Coast.)

First ... If your conditions are alkaline, I recommend that you avoid roses with a strong Multiflora background. Sweet Chariot, the lovely Vineyard Song, and Excellenz von Shubert are all good examples. These roses, And such as Reine des Violettes, will be martyrs to chlorosis, and prey to other diseases, in alkaline conditions.

Second ... Watering sparsely is great, but the plants must first be well-established. Otherwise, they may not make it.

Lastly ... We have found that roses such as Chinas, Teas, and some Noisettes best-handle dry summers. If it is too dry, they can go dormant and live, rather than struggling to bloom, and succumbing.

Ingrid-- I hear you on that! I have gotten better over the years about trying to amend first rather than jump in, and that was my plan for this. The nice thing about bands was I was hoping to more or less pot them up and be able to wait while I worked on the soil.

Jerijen-- it's never too late! I'm sorry if I gave the impression I did not know about establishing plants and watering during establishing times. I did not give a schedule for that as I figured it would be at least weekly and on an as-needed basis. I also did not mention our plan to set up a grey water system. In Jordan, you live off rain water mostly. City water is turned on once a week for about an hour or two. You are supposed to fill tanks from that... if you can. The other option is to buy water which is very expensive along with the city water. So our plan was to put in a cistern or two for grey water which would be used for irrigation. Anyway, again, apologies if I gave that impression. I do know about watering plants until they are established as well as the general water retentiveness of the soil month to month there. Each month the moisture creeps down about 5 cm if that helps you get a visual for established plants.

Can you recommend any roses that turn purple which are not of the multiflora or gallica heritage?

Those were the classes I was mostly looking at. I went for fragrance and cutting mostly, so you'll notice more noisettes and teas... although I have a hard time smelling Mlle Franziska Kruger. I don't know if it's that I can't smell teas or that I just can't smell her.

I am also waffling back and forth on Mr. Lincoln (for my husband since he loves red HTs that are fragrant), Perle d'Or, and I did find Lady Emma Hamilton in a band at Heirloom. Of course by the time I actually buy anything which could be over a year from now or who knows, it may be gone.. but.. lol need to start somewhere.

Juliana --- I SO wish I had a gray water setup.

I have a rose here 'Eyes For You' which shifts to blue ... So you might look at that. But on the whole, I have given up, and rely on companion plants to provide the blues. Things like salvias are good that way, and a cascade of thunbergia grandiflora "Skyvine.". Ohh and S. clevelandia for a big haze of blue.

And ... I can't smell most Teas .... Whether the problem is with me, or them, I cannot say. But there are some that I CAN smell, and those are special to me.

Can you get "Grandmother's Hat"? I ask, because it's a real survivor, AND very fragrant/disease-free/generous -- and even good in a vase.

I would have thought my soil (decomposed granite) is very alkaline but when I had Reine de Violettes it was completely healthy, with no sign of chlorosis. Perhaps there are various degrees of alkalinity and my situation is borderline. I just remembered that I also had Excellenz von Schubert which had no chlorosis, but was not great on rebloom for me. Often the only way to find out about a particular plant is to grow it; they can certainly surprise you.

Ingrid

Jerijen-- good to hear of another person with the Tea affliction! I can smell them when my nose is buried in one, but that's it. At least so far in my experience, that's it.

I just love the roses that fade into the solid purple. So lovely. I did look up your suggestions and so far Grandmother's Hat has really caught my attention. I was reading up on it... seems it is a large bush? I hadn't heard of it before, and so I am glad you made the suggestion. I may have years or months depending on how things work out, so I have time either way to get familiar with things. I wanted to get a good list together though so that when I find out we're moving, I can order and be ready. Plus I know I'll have permission once to bring things in, but I don't know about after that-- so I am going to try to make the one trip really count.

Ingrid-- there are various degrees of alkalinity and yes, each plant responds differently.

I haven't had that soil tested, but I know from tests within 5 miles of it, the soil ranges are running about pH 7.2-7.6. It's alkaline, but as I mentioned before, not overly so. It also rains enough that the soil flushes and it is not considered an area that gets salt build ups.

I know in AR my soil is running 6.8-7 depending on how much I amended it (7 is the un-amended pH). I have Vielchenblau and she does very well.

Another reason I am fond of fragrance is flavor. I sometimes make rose petal jelly and a fragrant rose is the key to a good jar. Currently, Eglantyne is the most fragrant rose I have that I use, and then I use a touch of Vielchenblau to color the mix.

Juliana -- Our conditions range 8.3-8.5 ... so when I say "alkaline," I REALLY mean Alkaline.

GramHat, though, is a most-obliging rose. I find that you can prune it like a Hybrid Tea Rose, and keep it in that size range, OR you can espalier it like a low climber, OR you can just let it go find what it wants to be.

We have one -- our original plant -- which we pruned for the first few years. Then, we just decided to shine it on. As a result, it has retained a nice round ball of a habit -- BUT became enormous. (See below)

Oh, yes, it will grow in part shade, quite nicely. This one is half-under a seedling avocado.

Jeri

I like to live and let live with roses lol. I do prune occasionally when needed or to shape, though. Your Grandmother's Hat is lovely!

I had alkaline soil like that in Las Vegas. That's why I said our land was alkaline.. but not overly so. I think our range is workable.

How many hours of sun is your Grandmother's Hat really getting?

Julianna

I think you have superb taste in roses.

I planted S.D.L.M in a triangle, one in front and two in back.
It has rapid rebloom for its' class being fully 50% Tea, good fragrance, and is a no-spray rose locally.
Lady Hillingdon has the longest bloom season and the most blooms per year of any Tea that I've documented.
La France is a wonderful rose, with shapely roses that have a strong scent.
climbing W.M.C. blooms once in spring, summer and autumn, where I live, while the bush form produces a couple more bloom cycles each year.
I love Sombruiel. too though I cannot smell the flowers on my plant.

Buff Beauty is loved by many, I prefer 'Reve d'Or' because it has a longer bloom season with quicker re-bloom in our climate and because of its' versatility, it can be grown as a bush, or climber or limbed to produce a rosebush with a tree like silhouette.
The three ways of growing a rosebush is also true of the sublime beauty 'Grandmothers' Hat. A local rose park has several planted along a pathway limbed from the ground to 2 and 3/4 feet from the ground, and a bit more than 5' tall, they are planted upwind, from the path and it is a wonderful thing to walk along that scented pathway.

I'd suggest a 'Susan Louise' to provide a shade for a sitting area. 'Susan Louise' is a Hybrid Gigantea (Rosa gigantea is Latin for "gigantic rosebush" it produces thousands of large pink and cream rose blossoms at a time, all year round, and locally I've seen it grown against a low fence of c. 4 feet tall where it grew to be 4 and 1/2 feet tall by 35 feet wide,
I'm limbing my plant so it will resemble one grown a few miles from my home, which has a sillouette like an apple tree, with one trunk- thick central cane, bare from the ground up to c. 7 feet and a canopy of 18' wide by c. 11 feet tall.

Good luck creating your rose paradise,
Lux.
P.S. I noticed you don't have any red roses on your list, I never appreciated red roses until I saw 'Gloire des Rosomanes' in full bloom. Because I always thought red roses appeared somber, but the white streaking that is seen in G. des R. and other China genetically influenced roses changed my mind.
L.

Juliana, I'd have to guess that Gramhat gets 4-5 hours of sun on one side, And naught but filtered sun on t'other side.

And I must second Lux's recommendation of Ragged Robin (Gloire Dec Rosomanes). In many ways, it is a red equivilant of GramHat. A magnificent rose.

Hi Lux! Susan Louise looks awesome! And I will definitely look into your suggestions. I am glad to hear about your experiences with the different roses. Some of them are ones I have wanted for years but never lived in the right climate to grow, which then makes me wonder if they are really a good fit or not. I did have a red rose-- Don Juan-- on the list :) I also mentioned Mr. Lincoln a few posts up as being a consideration. Red HT forms are my husband's favorite. I actually adore deep red roses with alternate forms, but the problem is most of what I like reportedly does not do well in that type of climate.

Jeri--Good to hear and I'll write that in the notes. I like to keep a list of names and attributes :)

Julianna

Julianna,

I hope you will be pleased with Don Juan. It has a lovely fragrance, gorgeous blooms and thick dark green petals. It has been a stellar performer here. Even this week, as we definitely have hit our winter temperatures (zone 9a), I counted a dozen or so gorgeous blooms on it. Don Juan also puts out blooms ( smaller in size) during the heat of summer. Mine receives about 7 hours of sunlight daily.

I too like the dark red roses. Have you considered Barcelona, Astrid Grafin Von Hardenberg, Nigrette, Oklahoma, Chrysler Imperial, Black Magic ( if it is still in commerce somewhere). This season I ordered Munstead Wood, a rose that seems to be a favorite of many, but it has been described as a "purplish" red ( do not know if you would like that)?

I have two Excellenz Von Schubert and 1 Grandmother's Hat. My soil tested at (7.6 - 8.3 pH) with water around 7.5-7.6 pH. I amended the soil prior to planting taking the chlorosis issue into account. There have been no issues with chlorosis at this point, but I agree with Ingrid as both of my EVS plants have been stingy bloomers. Grandmother's Hat, relative to everything else in my garden has not been a strong grower; which has been disappointing. I am considering moving it to a position where it receives more than 4 hours of sun daily; if I can find the right spot.

How exciting!! Creating a garden from beginning to end! It should be a beautiful garden!

Lynn

Lynn --

Give Grandmother's Hat a chance.

ALL of the photos you see of this plant are mature plants ... and once it is mature, it is a very strong (tho obliging) grower. BUT it needs time to get its roots under it. So I suppose it is one of which it is true that for the first year, it sleeps, second year creeps, third year, LEAPS.

I would take it further, and say that it grows more strongly thereafter, with every passing year.

Lynn-- Munstead Wood and Prospero, Tradescant-- those are ones I adore! But I am afraid they will go too magenta in the heat/fade, and I really dislike that color in roses (sorry for those who love it, hey, keeps us from competing for the same bushes!).

I have not ever had a chance to figure out the pH of the water there yet. I'd be interested in hearing how your Grandmother's Hat does after it is moved.

I know how that is to get around to doing things. I need to get myself outside and shovel prune my R. roxburghii flore plena because it has become virused. I noticed it just before frost, and now is a great time to do it. but that involves me going out into the flurries which seems not so attractive a proposition. That spot will become hollyhocks, I think.

Your property is just beautiful! I currently have Munstead Wood. Since it regularly gets over 105 degrees here in the summertime and we have watering restrictions, I can tell you that it just keeps on blooming and the colors do not fade in the sun or heat. Love that rose. It is a great one.

I used to have Sweet Chariot but don't any longer. I do, however, have another mini rose, Lavender Crystal. I believe it is a Ralph Moore rose as I picked it up at his nursery. It is a grey lavender and is quite the little work horse. I think you would like this rose very much. You probably could pick it up at Burlington roses. Any of the Ralph Moore roses would probably do very well in your area. Ralph bred them to be one tough rose to deal with our heat and no summer rain.

Other roses that do well in our heat/dry conditions are Lady Alexandra of Kent (great blooms), and Pretty Jessica. I am getting Emma H this year and will see how she does in our conditions.

mustbnuts-- thank you! Yeah, it doesn't ever even get that hot there. I wouldn't even describe it as hot, but for some reason everyone else describes it as hot and so I am just going with the flow. There are on average 1-2 days 90*F and above, and other than that July and August are the hottest months with highs typically in the mid to upper 80s with lows in the low 70s and upper 60s, June and September have highs in the low 80s, May and October have highs in the low 80s and upper 70s... and it just goes down from there until you hit the coldest months where highs are in the 50s and 60s. I never thought about those ranges as hot at all, but then I'd give those ranges and be told hat is hot LOL.

I am going to write down your list of suggestions and look them all over. The no summer rain is a biggie and I am glad you can speak to that experience. Thank you for the suggestions and the tips!