I used a few inches of an alfalfa forage product called "Chaffhaye" this summer around the bottom of a pair of young New Dawn climbers that had been almost completely defoliated after a big spring flush by a saw fly larva invasion. The roses didn't seem any worse for the application and in fact rebounded and re-grew all their leaves in a couple months and produced more blooms late in the summer. I have clay soil, but it's been heavily amended with my own horse manure/pine bedding compost (and zero peat moss.) I have no idea whether to credit the comeback to the alfalfa, the horse poop or just the vigor of the plant.

Chaffhaye (link below) is chopped alfalfa hay that's been lightly misted with molasses and sealed in a plastic bag so a fermentation process begins that increases its digestibility for animals while maximizing it's nutritional value, healthy bacteria and yeasts. So it is still "hay" but it is finer and in smaller pieces than normal alfalfa hay. By the way your picture of alfalfa hay from Kim, from a forage perspective, looks like some mighty, mighty fine alfalfa. I'm not sure if you head down to your local farmers' co-op and pick up a bale if it will have that fine of a texture.

I didn't do any research to pick out the chaffhaye--I just happened to have a few left over bales, so threw some on the roses. If you are interested I can take some pictures tomorrow of my chaffehay and/or a normal bale of alfalfa that is more coarse (probably a later cutting) if it makes any difference to you. I also I'd be curious to know if the nutritional information available on it as a forage translates as a fertilizer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Alfalfa Chaffhaye

I'm certainly no expert on this subject, but here is my experience: I use the alfalfa pellets mixed up in a 5 gallon bucket of water to use on my roses and they seem to love it. My Abraham Darby, planted in about 1990 had severe blackspot every year, but after a couple of years of using the alfalfa (starting in 2007), cleaned up and has become very healthy, which really surprised me. So who knows.

I have a Golden Celebration, the first two years it was fine, and last spring after it bloomed was literally covered with blackspot and pretty much became a skeleton. I put some cow manure plus the alfalfa on, made sure to water well, and it did show SOME improvement; still doesn't look great, will decide after this spring whether to keep or not...

Have no experience with peat moss, but must say my roses seem to love the alfalfa method of fertilizer!

I'm with OGROSE. We've used alfalfa tea for years, and the roses here have thrived on it. No chlorosis in response to the use of the tea.

For us, use of alfalfa tea results in immediate vigorous new growth and buds.

As always -- Note that I am in coastal Ventura County, Southern California, with highly alkaline soil and water.
YMMV.

Jeri

I'm another happy alfalfa user, although I use the alfalfa meal, which I do believe is not as effective as the alfalfa tea because it can clump up and just sit there no matter how well it's watered in. I get in there with my hands and break it up and mix it with the soil if at all possible (some of my teas have leaves to the ground and thorns to go with them). Nevertheless, I normally see signs of new growth in about a week and overall more bloom.

Ingrid

Thank you all for your inputs. Thank you, subk3, for that link to Alfalfa Chaffhaye. The feedstore said it's $12 for a bale of hay. It's good to learn from subk3 that hay it's bigger than the picture. One site said NOT to use alfalfa hay since it clumps up with water-run off.

I have no regret getting bags of fluffy leaves, but I got bags of grass clippings from the neighbor and it's still matted together, can't separate them. I agree that alfalfa is a miracle in producing new-growth. Here's a quote from the below site: "Alfalfa Meal contains high amounts of Vitamin A, Folic Acid, Thiamin, Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Niacin, Tricontanol, a natural occurring growth hormone. " Thiamine is also used in rooting hormone. From the link below, the alfalfa meal looks like pellets to me, but the meal I got from the feedstore is 100% fine dust, it's listed as 17% alfalfa meal, the rest is glue? At least I get 100% alfalfa from a bale.

Here is a link that might be useful: Alfalfa meal for $4.45 from Parsonspestcontrol

Also, about peat moss: there is a strong sentiment in the organic community that we should avoid using peat moss whenever another material is available that will do the job. There is still a lot of it out there, but it is a finite resource and it is getting used up at an alarming rate. When it is gone, there won't be any more.

Many potting soils these days are using coir (pronounce 'core') instead of peat. Coir is fiber from the husk of coconut shells.

I myself dug in several bales of peat when I was setting up my blueberry bed, but would chose not to use it for other garden purposes.

As for grass clippings, alfalfa hay, and the like, it is best to compost them before using them. I use alfalfa meal myself, scattering it all over the garden like pepper on food, then watering it to make it dissolve. It will clump if peppered too heavily.

Rosefolly

One more thing: compost is good for both clay soils and for sandy soils alike. It allows clay soils to have badly needed air spaces, and helps sandy soils hold on to water. In the words of another era, it is good for what ails them.

R

Strawberry,

I was thinking about your soil experiments and thought of a few things you might want to consider.

I would be hesitant to add bale alfalfa directly to the soil. To me clay + water + sand + straw = adobe bricks. But I probably have different clay than you do.

What I would do, either purchase a compost rolling bin or set up a larger bin in a corner of the yard and put the alfalfa, leaves and grass clippings in that bin and allow to compost-requires laying, mixing and watching the temps. (much slower in the cold than here in the warmth) and then use that to "feed" the soil.

Oscar Cremona of http://healinggroundsnursery.com/ Said that he considers compost those ingredients broken down and hard to tell what they once where and Mulch those same ingredients when you can see what they are. Mulch would be used on top of the soil to keep moisture in and compost is what is added and mixed in with the soil. Without the air to help in the cooking process, burying them in the ground is going cause them to break down very very slowly and probably not get the result you want. I would use the bale alfalfa as mulch on top of the soil and know that it will break down over the season and feed the soil. Same with the grass clippings (but would only use in the summer to keep the water in the soil)

I would probably also look the horse manure available and maybe only pick up in seasons where they might not be adding the lime. It might be too fresh to use, but it would be good in your compost bins and work for the following season.

We purchase steam bound pellets like these:
http://www.haystackfarmandfeeds.com/products/alfalfa-pellets-14-inch/

That being said, we are still using the same bales of straw hay here as mulch in the garden. They have broken down very little over the past two gardening seasons. You might find that buried straw lasts many more seasons than that.

Gardening = so many variables + so many different ideas and methods.

Alfalfa meal isn't bad when mixed in with fluffy horse manure (with wood chips) ... it doesn't clump up. But alas, I followed Roses Unlimited instruction of putting 2 cups MIXED IN the planting hole.

Alfalfa meal is slightly acidic, pH around 5, but peatmoss is more acidic, pH around 4. IWhen I dumped excess tomatoes from the garden on top of composted banana peels ... it became gluey & rock hard sheet once dried out. Acid plus fine particles on alkaline clay equal solid glue.

When I asked the chemist in the soil forum if the lime used in horse manure travels down to plants' roots. He said no. The lime used in horse manure is calcium carbonate, it stays put where it's applied.

As to composting grass clippings? It's a NO-NO. There's a thread in the rose forum on that, where I reported Verticullum Wilt on my tomatoes for the first time in 30 years, thanks to using composted grass clippings. Cactus_Joe from Pacific NW also reported making stinky sewage when dumping grass clippings into his compost.

I got bumper-crops of tomatoes from mixing FRESH grass clippings into soil early summer, when it's fresh and fluffy. University of Connecticut documented the release of nitrogen from grass clippings is 1 month. But when the grass clipping sit there composting through out wet fall, tons of snow, and spring rain, it stinks up, zero nutrients, but gives rise to Verticullum Wilt (pathogenic fungi) that wiped out my crop of tomatoes.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 13:41

Just a couple thoughts. The pH in compost is a variable. As the composting process finishes the pH returns to a neutral range. So depending how finished the compost is will affect your pH reading. The pH of my homegrown horse manure compost is very inconsistent (as I tend to use it before it is completely composted) and any affect it has when mixed with the soil seems to be temporary.

Also, do you KNOW that your source of horse manure uses lime in their stalls? It is not as common a practice as people tend to think it is. I don't use lime, have never boarded at a facility that used it and can't think of anyone I know that does. My personal opinion is that adding lime to stalls for odor control is a sign of less than optimal horse management. (If you keep your stalls clean they won't smell and you won't need to deodorize them.) Just don't assume lime is in your compost.

I agree. I've never known anyone that used lime either. I certainly don't.

I re-read last night's post and thought I should clarify that the affect of the horse manure compost I was talking about was specifically in terms of the pH. I had tested the compost earlier in the spring and it was high 7.5-8ish. My garden soil tested about 6-6.5. (I can't remember the specific numbers.) I haven't been worried about the pH because everything in my gardens of mostly perennials which have been heavily amended with it act like they are on happy drugs, including a couple climbing roses and a knockout.

I reworked a bed of endless summer hydrangeas late last spring by double digging in copious amounts of horse manure/pine bedding compost (that still had some composting left to go) and replanting the hydrangaes. Before I reworked the bed they were blooming blueish purple and couple weeks after they started blooming toward pink (although never that hot, dark pink.) By early fall, 4 months or so, they were back to blooming blueish purple. Even though the pH seem to balance out I was still seeing the positive affects of soil improvement.

The other thought I had for you after I posted was you should look up your local county agriculture extension agent and call them. If you have weird stuff going on with your soil that's because of regional characteristics and it reacts badly with common amendments they will know what it is and how to manage it. They aren't there just for farmers! Some of them aren't so great, but a good one can be incredibly useful.

Let us know what you end up doing!

The practice of cold-zone differs greatly from warm-zone. In my zone 5a with windchill factor below -20 degrees in winter, the stable is VERY enclosed. It's not an open-air stable like the one I saw in California. I called the stable they admitted to using lime.

Others in cold-zones also reported VERY HIGH pH values with horse manure. Yes, I tested the pH of horse manure at least 6 times, it's always alkaline, registered even more blue than my soil at pH 7.7. I use red-cabbage use as pH indicator, it allows time for the soil to react. Litmus test derived from lichen doesn't cover a wide range of pH as red cabbage.

I outlined the procedure to get the pH of anything using 50 cents of red cabbage in the English Rose Forum. Check out the link below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 13:48

Mike_Rivers, a retired chemist and rosarian, posted the below in the Roses Forum in August regarding why alfalfa tea works best for growth hormone:

"Posted by mike_rivers z5 MI (My Page) on Wed, Aug 29, 12 at 12:22 I just noticed Kerin's question:

"Triacontanol is a alcohol ester found in plant cuticle waxes. Therefore, is it more correct to say that the 'fermenation' in making the tea is simply a means of releasing the ester from the cuticle so more is immediately available to the plants, or as mentioned above, is triacontanol actually fermented (made) *in* the tea-making process?"

Kerin, making the tea simply hydrolyzes the ester and sets free the alcohol, triacontanol. A couple of other things about triacontanol which might be interesting to think about: 1) Triacontanol is very insoluble in water and perhaps making the tea produces natural emulsifiers which help get it inside the plant where it can have an effect. 2)Triacontanol esters occur naturally on the surface of rose leaves. "

From Strawberryhill: Also the composting of organic matters like leaves do not result in neutral pH, the result is alkaline. The Chicago Botanical Garden (5,000 roses) reported a pH of 7.4 with composted leaves. Predfern in my Chicagoland also e-mailed me the University of Illinois field research that documented the net result as alkaline for composted leaves, no matter how acidic they are at the start of compost. Predfern is Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry.

No idea about your soil Strawberry, but thought I would pass on what I note in our garden here.

For years dad had the neighbors dump their grass clippings over the fence. He would leave for the chickens or mom to disperse. (Next door is a town house association with more lawns than many local parks) He stopped because mom and the chickens were tired of the grass and he worried about what they might be weeding and feeding the lawns with.

Dad was a long time gardener, consulting and building soil was his area. I have boxes and boxes of audio tape he dictated on the subject I need to try and put to paper-hard work because of the technical details and his thoughts on how the ions and electrical currents held particles together.

At home, he used mostly chemical amendments to modify the soil. It may have worked well at the time. I know I had bag after bag to dispose of after he passed. He loved organic gardening, did not want to use pesticides but also had no issue using elements to amend soil.

Like you, we broke hoes, shovels and several rototillers, including his commercial one, on the hard soil. He was very proud of the changes he made.

What I notice now, years after he stopped amending the soil his way, is the only place you can easily put a shovel in the ground year round is the area next to the fence that got all those grass clippings. The rest we had to work at in small squares and only at the right moisture to work organics in to the soil. I have read that many of the elements work great, but need regular applications or they "wash" away. This is what I think happened in our case. It was not because they were walked on and most also had tree leaves that fell and decomposed where they sat.

After 3+ years of adding organics (our compost and horse manure-composted and fresh) our soil is now easy to dig and produces massive crops. I still have a few zones that need more organics, but I sure notice the difference. Now that might change if I just left the soil as it is for 10 years and try to dig again. I have also noticed that certain plants might make a lot of organics that help make the ground "fluffy" but also seem to lack any nutrients (most things struggle to survive in them)

But I keep thinking back to that nice soft stuff by the neighbors fence and those piles of grass. We never grew anything directly in the clippings or that section. but that is the soil I wish I had on the whole lot. I could ask them for the grass again, but I think at this point, I plan doing a heavy layer of horse manure, then several inches of the big chips and calling it good. This is the orchard area around the fruit trees so not looking to plant there.

I forgot to add, I have issues with the source and renewablity of peat moss, so I choose not to use it.

In Conneticut I mulched my tomatoes with grass clippings. The plants were small, not impressive. The problem with mulching with grass clipping is: it matts during rain, causing wet feet, and shallow roots, since only the surface is wet, and water can't penetrate deep due to matting of grass.

Behlgarden in CA posted summer 2011 about her roses' leaves wilting, no matter how much she waters. She also had blackspots, which is rare in CA. She mulched her roses with grass clippings, it matts together and blocks water from reaching deep in the soil. If the surface of soil stays wet, blackspots will germinate.

One site cautioned the same about the matting of alfalfa hay as mulch. NPK of alfalfa hay is good, 2.45 N, 0.5 P, and 2.1 K.

I'll report the values for oldest hay, or 3rd cutting: it's 50% decomposed in cold temp. versus only 39% in warm temp., and it's 41% nitrogen lost for a 30-days period.

Nitrogen is mobile and moves with water, versus MUCH LESS mobile potassium, and most stay-put phophorus .... which makes sense to put hay in the planting hole for maximum access to potassium and phosphorus.

Below is a link to how long it takes for alfalfa hay to break down ... if you scroll down to the bottom, you'll see tabulated data for cold temp. vs. warm temp., and the percentage of nitrogen lost in 30-days period.

The release of nitrogen for grass-clippings is 1 month, faster than the documented 40% loss of nitrogen in alfalfa hay with 30 days. I once posted a question where to put banana peels, high in potassium: in the planting hole? In the compost pile? or on-top? Both Michaelg, and Mike_Rivers (a chemist), said to put FRESH banana peels around the rose bush, so rain water can transport potassium to the root-zone. The release of potassium is fast like nitrogen, within a month.

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA Gov. on alfalfa decomposition

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 13:54

Just an FYI Strawberry, the photo of the baggie of alfalfa you posted recently looks more like what we sweep up off the ground after using the bales to feed the horses. The actual bales contain much more of the older and harder steams. You might ask and see if you can sweep up when buying a bale so you can get more of the "good stuff" with your bale. A feed store might be happy for the help and you may find you get a lot more of the good stuff from the floors.

Great tip, Kippy - thanks for the info. If I don't get enough grass clippings from the neighbor, then I'll buy alfalfa hay. I usually get 1/2 acre of grass clippings per week in spring from 2 neighbors who bag their clippings. We never bag our clippings, we let the grass self-fertilize.

Grass clippings is higher in nitrogen than alfalfa hay. NPK of grass clipping is 4-0.5-2, compared to alfafal hay of 2.4-0.5-2. They both have about the same phosphorus and potassium, 0.5, and 2 respectively.

Most likely I'll buy monopotassium phosphate, NPK 0-52-35 with low-salt index of 8.4, since my soil is deficient phosphorus and potassium, but I have plenty nitrogen.

I never water my rhododrendrons nor azaleas for the past 12 years, until this year I experimented with Lily Miller chemical plus chicken manure fertilizer at NPK 10-5-4 ... For the first time I have to water them since they become droopy in hot temp. I become more cautious about salt-index ever since: stay away from nitrogen fertilizer, known for high salt, except for grass clippings with zero salt.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 13:57

I've clay soil here. Acid clay. Alfalfa tea works beautifully--I've used it for years. Alfalfa pellets seem not to work as well.

Can alfalfa sprouts be used ? if so how can i ?

Not a science based post, but just my experiences. I feed alfalfa hay to my horses, and had a few bales last fall that had gotten wet and I didn't want to feed them - so I spread them as mulch around my roses. About 5 months later the stems still haven't broken down. Alfalfa pellets on the other hand, when mixed with water will break down very quickly. I don't have experience with the cubes. If I were to buy one over the other as intentional mulch (versus my favorite is post-horse-processing), I'd buy the pellets.

I have an odd property that is 1/2 sand, and 1/2 clay. 90% of my gardens are on the sand, but for the portion that is on clay, along with well composted manure (which I would comfortably replace with soaked and aged alfalfa pellets) I mix in sand. It makes the ground much nicer to work with. Success of plants in both my sand and clay seem pretty much the same.

Thank you, Harmonyp, for that info. You are right that alfalfa hay, coarser than grass clippings would take forever to break down. I dumped 4 bags of grass clippings around my tree 5 months ago, they matted down and haven't decomposed yet. Grass clippings decompose faster when it's raked into the soil in hot summer while it's fresh and fluffy.

NPK of alfalfa meal is 2-1-2, NPK of alfalfa hay is Alfalfa Hay: 2.45/0.5/2.1 - both are twice higher in nitrogen than phosphorus. Twice-higher in nitrogen makes sense in spring, but not in the summer. I can see higher nitrogen for cold zone where roses die down to the ground, zero leaves left in spring time.

But to continually fertilizer roses with high-nitrogen sources in warm weather only result in gigantic rose with a smaller root system. Excess nitrogen fertilizer drives down phosphorus, necessary for root growth. When the mass of the plant is too big comparing to its root, roses decline in 3rd year with diseases since the root can't support the mass above efficiently.

The roses in zone 5a are perfect after winter-die-back: small & compact, more blooms than leaves, zero diseases. Except for this past warmest winter in over a decade, where they retained their mass, became gigantic, less flowers, and disease-prone.

This is from WikiHow site: "Try a fertilizer with high phosphorus for new roses.[1] Young roses have not yet had the opportunity to establish a root system. Since phosphorus is used to strengthen roots, it is especially valuable to new roses."

I was googling images of "high phosphorus fertilizer" and found lots of blooms plant from an orchid website, with a quote from a botanist at Michigan State University "it's the absence of nitrogen that produces bloom, rather than fertilizing with phosphorus." Once organic matter is added, its break-down by soil microbes release phosphorus. Phosphorus is also high in sewage.
With the many roses that I moved in my last house and present house, I notice that when the mass of the root is big compared to plant, it's much healthier. When the mass of the root is small compared to the plant, it's either stingy with blooms or disease-prone. The bigger the root to extract water and nutrients, the healthier the plant - also it can withstand drought and winter better.

1. Plants don't need nitrogen unless it's actively growing in spring. Azaleas and rhododrendrons spend their summer making buds for next year. Fertilizing with nitrogen in the summer while plants are making flowers is pointless: it only attracts pests like asphids, thrips, or big fat caterpillar on my tomatoe plant.

2) Chemical nitrogen fertilizer are highest in salt. That's why WikiHow advised NOT to use granular fertilizer in the summer, but use organic fertillizer or soluble fertilizer in the summer. They advised water the plants first, before applying soluble fertilizer.

3) It's the absence of nitrogen that promote blooms, rather than adding phosphorus fertilizer. Nitrogen is for green growth. I can see 3 times per year of nitrogen for my lawn ... when we mown the lawn weekly .... but there is no point of applying nitrogen fertilizer for roses, except for spring time with winter-die-back.

I don't fertilize many of my 26 trees, they lose their leaves yearly - and grow back new ones every spring. These trees are taller than 2-story building... why should I dump nitrogen on tiny roses 1/100 the size of a tree, except to defeat their flowering?

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 14:01

I asked the rosarian in charge of Cantigny park of 1,200 roses for their secret of having more blooms than leaves, he said "use low nitogen, high-phosphorus fertilizer". Phosphorus is needed for root growth and blooms. Nitrogen is for leaves and stems.

One year I dumped blood meal, NPK of 12-0-0 on marigolds to deter bunnies. The marigolds grew taller than 3 feet taller, zero flowers for the entire summer. The last few years I didn't use any fertilizer on marigolds, they are short at 6 inches, loaded with blooms that I can hardy see the leaves.

Alkaline clay are usually low in phosphorus, due to phosphorus tie-up with calcium and magnesium in the soil. That contribute to gigantic roses with little blooms, in addition to using nitrogen fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizer is known to lessen root growth and flowering. That's the problem with alfalfa being twice higher in nitrogen than phosphorus.

just an fyi, good orchid fertilizers are sold with 2 formulas, one for regular season growth and one for bloom (look for the pink and blue varieties) You feed one certain months, then switch to encourage bloom.

Thank you, Kippy, for the info. about orchids. My sister grows them, I'll pass along the info. I figured out why roses are stingy, even when people over-fertilize them:

1) Clay soil are usually phosphorus-deficient, due to its high magnesium content (causes stickiness in clay). Phosphorus form insoluble precipitate with magnesium and calcium in clay soil. Phosphorus is needed for rooth growth and flowering.

2) The myth of roses need nitrogen to bloom: That's not true. There's a bed of 6 Knock-outs, I never fertilize them for the past 6 years... they are loaded. I don't fertilize my giant 26 trees either, they lose their leaves, and form new ones each spring.

3) Nitrogen is known to reduce flowering and root growth. I have seen how tiny the roots are on roses fertilized with nitrogen higher than 2 in NPK .

4) Absence of nitrogen promotes flowering, even without phosphorus fertilizer. A botanist at Michigan State University Extension did a research on this. My marigolds are absolutely loaded with blooms, even with no fertillizer. Marigolds does well at high pH.

5) The break-down of organics by soil organism release phosphorus. That's why alfalfa tea works better than alfalfa meal when the organics break down in water and become stinky. Phosphorus is also highest in sewage.

6. University of Haiwaii Extension detailed factors which promote phosphorus-uptake in plants: silicates (in sand), organic matter, and humus.

Before dismissing a plant's need for nitrogen because the gardener does not add nitrogen-containing fertilizer, please remember that rain water contains nitrogen. Whether you give it to your garden plants or not, they're getting it if they get rained upon.

:-)

~Christopher

Thank you, Christopher for the info. I don't dimiss nitrogen, but I think it's being over-used at the wrong time. I put manure, and sometimes blood meal on my baby trees at spring time to speed up green growth. But once they are at the established height, I don't give them nitrogen.

Nitrogen is essential for potted plants, since it leaks out with watering. Nitrogen is important in sandy soil, since it drains off with water. Nitrogen is less needed in clay soil and wet climate like mine. Some roses are nitrogen-hog, like Mirandy. I received Mirandy as a band, completely yellow. The nursery explained that it rained a lot, and nitrogen leached out from the band. Chemical nitrogen didn't work, but blood meal NPK of 12-0-0 greened up Mirandy. Blood meal was sticky with slow-release of nitrogen, rather than being leached out with rain from the pot.

Some folks don't have much luck using organics like alfalfa meal, since it has twice more nitrogen than phosphorus. Stuff like that is best in spring time with water, rather than many times in hot and dry summer.

I was looking at the orchid fertilizer and the grow is 30-10-10.

And the bloom is 6-30-30

Would hate to have some one think that used as directed on orchids that it would be good on roses too. You would really want to do some research before you tried it. (it is diluted for orchids, but they grow on bark so have different requirements)

"...please remember that rain water contains nitrogen. "

HeeHee .... "rain water" ...
What is "rain water"??

:-(

Jeri

Jeri,

That is the mythical thing the weather guy up north was speaking and warning of each forecast this week. He was so worried you would have thought the ark was loading 2x2.

The thing I was so worried would come and make a giant mess of my dirt pile.....and started about 4:40 for 10 minutes and again for a half an hour later.... all .07 of an inch

Jeri made me laugh, that was funny! Humor is badly need in this forum. Dry air is made of 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, and the rest of argon and carbon dioxide. That explains why poor drainage wet clay soil can turn roses yellow ... the roots can't breathe. My Eglantyne rose was yellowish, until I fixed the drainage.

MiracleGro potting soil comes with enough nitrogen for 3 months. I had one geranium in MiracleGro and was annoyed that the leaves are so dark green with few flowers (I don't fertilize that pot). There's one pot that I ran out of MiracleGro and put 1/2 garden dirt in ... I actually like that geranium better: it was shorter, more blooms, and lighter green leaves ....easier on the eyes.

A friend asked me about phosphorus, so I'll post the info. here: The NPK value of oak leaves is 0.8 /0.35/ 0.15 Maple leaves is similar to that, so it's twice higher in nitrogen than phosphorus. Once decomposed, the value of phosphorus rises. Most decomposed organic matter is high in phophorus, such as sewage sludge at NPK of 2/ 1.9 / 0.3. Animal tankage (manure without the fat and gelatin) with NPK of 8 / 20 / 0. Other high sources of phosporus are rock phosphate and bone meal with NPK of 4 / 21 / 0.2. Drawback of rock phosphate and bone meal: they can only be utilized at pH at or below 7, according to University of Colorado Extension.

Since I'm lazy in pruning I would rather sacrifice top growth for more root and flowering, or less nitrogen and more phosphorus. Leaves and stem store plenty of nitrogen, and unless the plant is completely yellow, there's no need for nitrogen. Even then, fixing the drainage and fluff up the soil with organic matter helped my roses to green up without the need for chemical nitrogen (also highest in salt). Adding air to the soil by making it fluffy is the cheapest way to give nitrogen to roots, considering that dry air is made of 78.09% nitrogen.

Composting scraps from kitchen is another cheap source of nutrients, considering Cantaloupe rinds has NPK value of 0 / 9.77 /12.0 ... high in phosphorus and potassium. Potato skin has NPK value of 0 / 5.18 / 27.5 ... also high P and K. Nothing beats banana peels in potassium, with NPK value of 0 / 3.25 / 41.76. Potassium is need to counteract the salt in manure, and to fight diseases.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 11:48

Thanks, Kippy, for the soluble Orchid fertilizer 6-30-30. I checked on that it's safe to use for other plants. Orchid is a picky plant with sensitive roots, and needs 16 nutrients, including iron. I read the reviews: people use orchid food on other plants with great success. The 6-30-30 is a soluble fertilizer sold at Walmart for $17 (1.25 lbs.), it's more expensive than buying Soluble Monopotassium phosphate (52% P and 35% K, low salt index of 8.4).

The above are soluble and low-salt, less danger of burning roots than granular fertilizer, esp. the ones with nitrogen like urea, with salt index of 74.4% .... it's like dumping salt on your rose bush.

I love that you know the analysis for banana peels and cantaloupe rinds. We always feed fruit scraps to the roses. One year I had a funny weed in the rose beds and didn't get around to pulling it until late. When I pulled it out, up popped small potatoes with the roots! That was my first time growing potatoes.

Hi Strawberry..glad to see you back.
I never use peatmoss..non-renewable resource. Also it doesnt seen absorb water.
I did use it a couple of years ago as a component when making hyper-tuffa pots for a fund raiser. It promotes the growth of moss on the pots which kind of looks cool.
Alfalfa pellets..I sprinkle them in the spring around bushes in the formal garden which then has cedar chips spread around to make the entry to the house look ok.
All the rose gardens and the raised beds get horse poops. Freshh in late fall and composted in the spring. No lime in the poops as I dont use any in my stalls. Never heard of anyone who does. I also use this system in the raised vegetable gardens. I do not suppliment with any fertilizer such as Miracle gro., etc.
My horses are fed hay and alfalfa bales which are grown by friends who live about 25 miles from my home...no chemicals. Not cheap but I do it. They also are each fed 4-6 cups of beat pulp a day soaked in water depending on the season of the year. Yeah in winter, neih in summer. Not sure if the beet pulp is organic or not.
Since we get substantial rain during the winter, there is almost no concern with salts or excess fertilizer as it washes out. I am cautious as I dont want excess fertilizer flushed into my drinking water...
Many years ago I had the soils tested and they only tested low in nitrogen. That was surprising since there had never been any landscaping or fertilizer application to the premisis. My ph was slightly acid which was as to be expected.
A few years ago I took a guided tour of the Portland Rose Gardens, the rosarian who led us stated that they only use ZooDoo as there soil only tests low in nitrogen. I suspect that Oregon and Wa get similar soil due to winter rain..only a guess.

Hope I didnt bore you but that's all I know. Take care.
Jeannie

Was just thinking about this as I was feeding my horses yesterday, and felt compelled to write something here even though I somewhat doubt that the gardening community makes a significant impact on the alfalfa resources. But ... expecially in years like the past few where we've been in heavy drought, alfalfa - which is a primary staple for cattle, especially dairy cattle, and horses - is in short supply. Prices are very high right now and have been for a handful of years to standard supply and demand, and many ranchers have gone out of business, and can't feed their animals.

Just from a conscious raising perspective, think hard about using post rather than pre-digested alfalfa (e.g. manure), and let the animals who need alfalfa for food get it. Just my 2 cents.

Hi Jeannie: I enjoy and learn from what you wrote, thank you. Nitrogen is unstable and some don't test that anymore. The professional soil company, Earthco. tested the organic level in my soil, rather than nitrogen.

Organic matter buffers one's soil pH. My soil is alkaline at pH 7.7 - I used sulfur last year to lower soil pH: TERRIBLE RESULT !! Sulfur killed earthworms in the hole, and didn't increase the blooms. However, the bed with the most leaves mixed in had the most blooms, and the most earthworms. Fresh leaves are acidic, but when it decomposes, it neutralizes the soil. Once fully decomposed, it's slightly alkaline. Nature planned it that way since rain water is acidic at pH 5.6.

There are 2 reports that blueberry can be grown in alkaline soil if there are plenty of organic matter. Organic matter fluffs up the soil, giving air to roots - air is 78.09% nitrogen. As organic matter decomposes, it releases both phosphorus and potassium. Organic matter keeps soil moist, and helps earthworms.

My soil is tested deficient in phosphorus. I can see the purplish streaks on the stems of my roses. Last year I dumped lots of Starbucks espresso grounds on my rhododrendrons. Espresso is much stronger, and has more nitrogen than coffee (NPK 2 / 0.3 / 0.6 ). The rhodies' leaves get pinkish-purplish stripes. I didn't know what it was until I checked for signs of phosphorus deficiency. Excess of nitrogen drives down phosphorus, and excess of salt in chemical fertilizer also drives down potassium.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 11:18

Thanks, Kitty, for the amusing story about your accidental potatoe plant in rosebush .... that's funny!

I agree with Harmonyp that horse manure is better than alfalfa, even with my less-than-perfect horse manure that came from zone 5a stable which limed their stalls plus woodchips bedding. Why?

1) One does the environment a favor by using horse manure. The free pile is taller than a small house. With the sawdust/woodchip bedding, it looks as good as the $40 per cubic yard-dark-mulch. Even with my less ideal horse manure, I get the advantage of zero blackspots, thanks to the fluffy bedding that dries out quickly, plus the lime that prevents fungal growth.

2) If one is after nitrogen for dark-green leaves, nothing beats blood meal with NPK of 12-0-0, plus iron. I don't apply nitrogen unless it's a wimpy 3 inches rose, or a 1 foot tall baby tree. Nitrogen means more pest (aphids & thrips), and more diseases with less root.

3) By ratio alone, horsemanure has more phosphosrus and potassium. NPK is 0.44 /0.35 /0.3 - making it a very balanced fertilizer, comparing to higher nitrogen ratio in alfalfa hay. NPK of 2.45 / 0.5 / 2. Roses don't need constant nitrogen once the mass is established.

4) Alfalfa is much more expensive than peat moss. Thanks to Rosefolly and Kippy for pointing out that peat-moss is non-renewable. Better choices are leaves and composted pine mulch. Check out the info. below on pine mulch:

Fresh pine bark retains only 13% of water, compared to higher value of 21% of water once decomposed. I'm not sure if peatmoss can match that 21% water retention.

Pine bark is high in lignin, an organic (carbon) substance which is much more resistant to decay than cellulose.
Pine bark have a natural pH between 4.0 and 5.0, ideal for blueberries ... also ideal for bringing down pH of alkaline clay like mine.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 11:30