I would start them outdoors, but if you must start them inside....just get one warm and one cool (the cheap will work just fine).

If you have a light meter and check the difference between indoor light with the light from adding electric lights, compared with outdoor light in the shade, you will see why Webkat recommends starting outside. Al

That's interesting. I'm really new to the whole gardening thing, but an observation that I made this weekend was the tomato plants I have in pots outside have grown much faster than the ones I have under the lights.

And, I swear I remember my cukes and squash just growing like crazy when I direct seeded this last Spring.

So, I think I don't get the concept?? For instance, I have tomato, squash and cukes growing under lights, waiting for the Aug 15-Sept 1 planting dates. Why wait? Why does it matter if they are in the ground now or growing under lights?

I understand the concept for some plants that do better as transplants, but what about those where it is recommended to sow outdoors or inside?

Julieann, go check out the Winter Sowing forum....

Any plant that germinates and grows outdoors will be stronger, healthier, have a MUCH more extensive root system and will be more productive than those grown under artificial conditions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Winter Sowing

alot of issues are interrelated. This time of year you might factor in root zone temperatures, light quality and duration , any variation that might exist in media porosity of your outdoor pots... Once you start seeds in containers, then this is the beginning of creating an artificial environment, anyway...

waiting for the Aug 15-Sept 1 planting dates

I'll admit to not knowing much about these veggies but what is special about those dates? Is it too hot where you are before then? Too dry? Here in England, growing under lights in the summer is almost always the wrong choice.

...how goes it across the pond,shrubs...read an article in the Wall Street Journal; (7/25/2006;) "London is so Dry, It's Planting Cactus in Place of Begonias"...Buckingham Palace is Letting the Lawn Go Unwatered.....

Hi Pickwick,

Its been a hot dry summer, but its also been exaggerated in the press. Much of the south east has a ban on using hosepipes and sprinklers so the grass is brown. The water shortage is largely a man-made problem, too many people living in a small area and using aquifers instead of collecting rainwater in reservoirs. The aquifers are running low after a string of very hot summers and two somewhat dry winters.

I don't know if you've ever visited London, but there are a great many seasonal mass plantings, Cyclamen and Ivy in winter, Cannas and Petunias in summer, etc. This year they have turned to more succulents although it hasn't worked especially well since many of them still need watering until they establish themselves!

Outside the south east, we are sitting pretty and enjoying the warm weather which seems to be over for now. July was the hottest month on record, the summer has been very dry and sunny, but there is plenty of water in the reservoirs. The English climate has been increasingly mediterranean over the last few years, hot dry summers and mild wet winters. Assuming climate change follows the predictions this will continue, so look out for English Cabernet Sauvignons flooding the Californian market in a few years ;)

to julienann:(no expert,as I don't find the need for growlights for my selections...)though I would think you might want to consider an electronic ballast set-up with a high ballast factor (bf) rating compatable with your tubes....the Growing Under Lights Forum has good contributors there...
(good to correspond with you, shrubs....)

Not everything grows better if started outside. Peppers, for instance, will not fruit if they end up being too cold when they are young. This even has a name - "cold-checking." So don't believe the hype that everything can be started outside in the winter and will result in better, stronger plants. It is not true.

Seeds should be started in the way that is best for that seed. That varies depending on the seed. Tender perennials are an entire group of plants that do NOT do better started outside in the cold. They need warmth, often just to germinate, and they need warmth at particular times in their life. Otherwise, they will be weak and will not produce.

If you like an approach, fine. But if one approach fit all plants, there would be no such thing as plant specialization for climate.

...good post crankyoldman...

...furthermore, I suggest reading and printing off the flowchats,tables and figures found in the USDA Handbook 674 (vol.5) that addresses some of the issues I identify with... (no matter what our growing environments are). Please overlook any chemical intervention in the household environment as chemicals are always subject for review, anyway

"Not everything grows better if started outside....Seeds should be started in the way that is best for that seed."

Just to post a note about these statements:

Last I checked the title of this forum was "Growing From Seed"....

Obviously one should research the specific requirements for each and every type of seed. I do.

Also, winter sowing does not confine one to sow the seed in the winter. It is a method which can be used all year long. Many seeds are not sown until March or April...even May, June and July.....

I doubt the plants from these later sown seeds would experience "cold-checking".

I just tend to side with Mother Nature and have had great success with this method. Many seeds that have failed indoors happily sprout when placed out in the natural elements. It is also much more enjoyable...

Just my two cents....take it as you will....

biology of seeds and the integration of biological entitities and environmental inputs.The continued proposal I see from your forum: damping off diseases doesn't exist in an outdoor environment; insect pests such as fungus gnat larvea have little bearing; seed borne pathogens afflicting pre and post emergent diseases are overlooked...and so on... If you want to rewrite the sciences , be my guest.... but there is a separation of forums

I will start seeds indoors and not worry about if I am cheating; prick out seedlings and/or bring germinants indoors during excessive low temperatures if I care to and so on.... regardless of anyone's agenda....

Moresoever, my understanding of continued adult learning includes textbooks and reliable references...and the understanding that concepts have been presented and written about. The use of recyclable containers for outdoor sowing/specific seeds was already published in 1987 in conjunction with the use of fungicides to address seed borne pathogens Her references included USDA Forest Sevice Publications and the University of New Mexico...... If there are issues of no damping off, no mess, now fuss, no fungus gnats,ect., proposed from the version of your w.s forum translated here, then these issues are subject for review here without being called a troll....

Ok. However, if the person has a general question about starting seed and the seed in question is one that I have successfully winter sown, what is the objection to directing them to the WS forum?

If people are successfully growing from seed and are enjoying gardening, why does anyone care? Isn't growing from seed a great wonderful experiment? Shouldn't we try everything that suits our fancy?

It might appear to me that the outdoor growing environment presents a series of its own changing issues ...That is why Dr. Thomas Landis'Tables and Figures presented in his Handbook 675,vol.5 is worth a read
Additional references:Center for Health and the Human Environment>Publications:
http:////chge.med.harvard.edu
(reports): Climate Change and U.S. Agriculture:The Impacts of Warming and Extreme Weather Events on Productivety,Plant Diseases and Pests(2000)
(journal):Emerging Infectious Diseases of Plants; Pathogen Pollution,Climate Change and Agricultural Drivers(2004)
--------------------------------------------
plantstress.com/Articles/index.asp
plant pathology online:
http://www.apsnet.org/online/feature/
ect........................................
why must we maintain such a simple view presented in your version of "wintersowing" ???

You don't. That's my point. Do what suits you. Winter sowing works for me because of the simplicity. It might not be for everyone, but it is certainly worth a look-see.

Well here goes that old REDNECK again this time about when and where you plant your seed. Now down here in this beautiful south you dont plasnt such seed as tomato in the winter outside, cause who knows, the last week of Feb. could be warm enough to sprout those seed. and the frost next week kill them. What do you do then, wait for the roots underground to sprout, or plant again for the next frostto kill.

hello dangsr....this spring, we experienced below freezing temperatures Memorial Day Weekend (our planting out date)followed by record breaking temperatures(high 90s to 100+ degrees)stuff happens,particularly now under our contemporary conditions.... Try to check what you say,so that this thread won't be deleted.....

bakemom:Applications without establishing principles based upon past contributions of growers, horticulturalists,plant scientists,(i.e. plant pathologists, ecololgists and so on) ,are weighed by me under our contemporary conditions....So: "OK,However,...WHAT... !!!" I don't care about the 1987 published account by Judith Phillips using recycleable containers for outdoor sowing....Your version of winter sowing does not reflect our contemporary conditions or anthro-defined growing zones and conditions... These are issues that we are ALL facing ....So I require peer reviewed references that I shall read and ponder...Loyalty is not the Currency of our contemporary times...imo

Good grief! Did anyone try to answer poor julieann_grow's question? My opinion; you want to try and simulate the sun as much as possible. The "Sunlight" tube, from what I understand, is not much different from the standard fluorescent, maybe a bit more of the spectrum. The "Plant and Aquarium" tube has a lot of "red" of the sun's spectrum that missing from the standard tube.

My personal suggestion: to use one standard fluorescent and one "Plant and Aquarium" per fixture. This is what I've been using for a year now and seems to work well.

Hope THAT answers your question, julieann_grow. ;-)
RJ in St. Louis

pickwick,

This post has certainly been hickacked a lot.

I'd think it best to start another thread concerning wanting a critical review of, and possibly changes being made to the FAQ here. I notice there are several of the FAQ that don't have the name of who 'input them', and there are no credits.

As far as requesting a review of that FAQ at the Tomato Forum, you might want to contact paul2010, who input it, along with the credits.

Now, back to the post at hand.

Julie,

Here is what the FAQ here says here.

Do I need special growlights for starting seeds?
The consensus among the many experienced gardeners at GardenWeb is that ordinary 40-watt fluorescent bulbs, in standard "shoplight" type fixtures (inexpensive and widely available at home-improvement and general retail stores) are adequate for the home gardener starting seeds indoors.

Lights marketed as "growlights" or "plantlights" ,etc.,produce more red and blue light than regular fluorescents,but are often very expensive,sometimes downright exorbitant.

Many gardeners recommend using one "warm"(usually sold as "kitchen and bath" or "soft" lights,and having more of the red and/or blue wavelengths) and one "cool"(regular) bulb in each fixture to provide a "fuller spectrum" of light. An explanation of how plants use light may be useful here.

Light,whether from the sun or artificial sources,consists of varying wavelengths of radiant energy. In their normal state our eyes perceive these wavelengths together as "white light". Everyone is familiar with the spectrum of colors made visible when white light is refracted by water droplets to produce a rainbow.

Plants mainly use the red and blue wavelengths of light. Red is utilized in photosynthesis(how the plant produces it's food), blue influences the hormone systems that control growth.

It would seem that extra red and blue wavelengths in a light source would be beneficial, but in practice,at least in growing seedlings, intensity of light seems to be more important than spectrum. The much-higher cost of special "growlights" does not necessarily produce better seedlings!
The combination of a warm and cool bulb makes sense,but if cost is a factor(warm bulbs cost up to 3 times as much as regular tubes), standard fluorescents will work just fine.

...thank you julie for posting your observations...I shall pass as it appears my entrees are messed with....

Webscat writes 'Also, winter sowing does not confine one to sow the seed in the winter. It is a method which can be used all year long. Many seeds are not sown until March or April...even May, June and July.....'

That would only be considered winter sowing if you lived south of the equator.

I use the "plant and aquarium" or something similar for seed-starting/seedling raising. I don't use the mix of warm/cool or "sunlight" because they don't have as much of the spectra that plants like best. Okay, so my plant-growing room looks creepy with that purplish-white light on, but the plants seem to like it. I also use heat mats/bottom heat to germinate the things that like it, e.g. coleus, begonias, lots of the more tender annual flowers, peppers, tomatoes, etc. The grow domes help to keep the humidity high, and I only bottom-water my seedlings.

I winter-sow and direct-sow the things that prefer those treatments, as well. Needless to say, they don't get any special lighting (outside).

There you have it--everything that works for me.

JulieAnn,

In my opinion, for starting vegetable seeds inside it isn't worth paying extra for "Gro-Lites" or warm white fluorescents. I use cool white Philips 32-watt T8 fluorescents from Home Depot in boxes of 10 for $19.95.

A couple of years ago I paid extra to get some warm white fluorescents, but I observed, to my surprise, that my seedlings were actually leaning in the direction of the cool whites. So if plants prefer the $2 cool whites, why pay extra for something else? I have raised pepper seedlings to a very large stage with peppers set on them using overdriven cool whites.

MM