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Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Posted by Kevin_5 z5 (My Page) on
Sat, Feb 8, 03 at 17:30

Since the subject comes up so often, I thought our own little GardenWeb "definitive work" on Viburnums might be nice to have. There are so many well informed individuals here that the collective knowledge should be quite useful. I'll get the ball rolling with this group. Since everyone would like to know who can cross pollinate who, the following is a list of related species/cultivars that should all interact nicely:

V. bracteatum
'Emerald luster'
V. rafinesquianum--not too hard to find
V. deamii--sometimes listed as a V. dentatum--saw it at Lowes!
V. molle--add peeling bark to your Viburnum arsenal of attributes
V. recognitum
V. dentatum var. lucidum(V. recognitum)
V. dentatum var. scabrellum
V. dentatum var. verrosum
V. dentatum var. pubescens
V. dentatum var. dentatum
'Autumn Jazz(Ralph Senior'
'Cardinal'
'Blue Muffin(Christom)'--which I think was 'Dwarf form' previously
'Raspberry tart'
'Fireworks'
'Northern Burgundy(Morton)'
'Chicago Lustre(Synnesvedt)'
'Perle Bleu'
'Red Feather'
'Moon Glo'
'Crimsontide'
'Red Regal'
'Indian Summer'
'Pathfinder(Patzam)'
'White and Blue'
'Canby Downy Viburnum(pubescens?)'
Ok-that's a start. Any and all of these could help each other produce copious quantities of fruit. No doubt others have more to add, more acceptable related species. Somebody has those enormous taxonomy books with obscure relatives waiting to be listed!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I lack the exhaustive Viburnum knowledge shown by others, nut V. nudum and cassinoides are similar and pollinate each other, ditto for V. trilobum and opulus (which are basically the same).


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

The V. dentatum list repeated with a few additions:

V. bracteatum
'Emerald luster'
V. rafinesquianum--not too hard to find
var. affine
V. deamii--sometimes listed as a V. dentatum--saw it at Lowes!
V. molle--add peeling bark to your Viburnum arsenal of attributes
V. molle f. leiophyllum
V. recognitum
V. dentatum var. lucidum(V. recognitum)
V. dentatum var. scabrellum
V. dentatum var. verrosum
V. dentatum var. pubescens
V. dentatum var. dentatum
'Autumn Jazz(Ralph Senior'
'Cardinal'
'Blue Muffin(Christom)'--which I think was 'Dwarf form' previously
'Raspberry tart'
'Fireworks'
'Northern Burgundy(Morton)'
'Chicago Lustre(Synnesvedt)'
'Perle Bleu'
'Red Feather'
'Moon Glo'
'Crimsontide'
'Red Regal'
'Indian Summer'
'Pathfinder(Patzam)'
'White and Blue'
'Canby Downy Viburnum(pubescens?)'


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Printed & in my notebook.
Thanks


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Wow, I'd better get a notebook specifically for Viburnums. Good to know my 'Emerald Luster' and 'Blue Muffin' will be very happy together. Thanks for the list, Kevin. --And for the dilatatum list too. I've never had a clue about this...

Leslie


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Help... what pollinator would I need for Viburnum prunifolium? Would 2 plants of the same pollinate each other? any suggestions?


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I am sure that any other V prunifolium would pollinate. They are not clones, and they do grow wild in my woods and all bloom and fruit.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

As long as the two V. prunifolium weren't taken from cuttings of the same plant, you would get the cross pollination that would increase fruiting for you. There are now some clones of V. prunifolium entering the market, namely 'Summer Magic'. Judging by the size of the buds on my plant, I'd say it might be a very interesting cultivar.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Keep saying "two plants of same/similar species that have OVERLAPPING BLOOM TIMES" so that we don't kid anyone.

Leslie, you might watch to see when Emerald Luster blooms compared to most other V. dentatum. I'm not sure about Blue Muffin, mine are tiny and I don't know its provenance. Most widely available clones are from the upper Midwest and are essentially done blooming when my Emerald Luster (selected in zone 7-8) gets started.

Daunting, but in the name of service to humanity and GW, I motion that posters list (where known) the provenance of at least the named clones of viburnums. I nominate Kevin, since he started it, to add these to the lists already posted for future updates.

Also, be assured that most retail container or BB viburnum are propagated from cuttings and most individual retailers buy all of one kind of plant from one source. More than likely, they are identical whether a named clone or not. This is important for the vehement vigorous viburnum vagabond (unless you only want to enjoy the fruit vicariously).

Ever vainglorious......


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Thanks, Kevin, for the information and starting this thread!


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Ok, not a one of my V. dentatum have leafed out yet. V. nudum, V. cassinoides and others are leafing out but not the Arrowwood. I saw large potted Northern Burgandy at the Nursery on Sunday and they had no leaf buds out either.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Rita: I understand your impatience, since you all up northeast seem to keep getting more winter and less spring.

V. dentatum is a little later to leaf out than those you've mentioned. Mine are just breaking new leaves, compared to flowers already on the fragrant burkwoods, Aurora, Juddii, etc. All in their time.


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Viburnumvally-- You are in sone 6 (zone5?) and I am in zone 7 here on Long Island, worst case zone six. There are no flowers already on anything, not even the Forcythia around here and you have flowers on your fragrant Viburnums. Brother, we must be having the worst spring ever here. I am not the patient sort, as one might guess by most of the things I post, blathering about whatever did not grow fast enough to suit me!!!


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RE: Viburnum Conoy & Friends

To add to the list, what is the pollinator for Virburnum Conoy?


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Rita: You're right, usually you'd be enjoying the blooms, fragrance, etc. well ahead of us frozen landlocked gardeners. Consider it a one-time midwest insouciance, and payback for you normally having the sublime maritime clime.

Saint Ivo: Good question. Conoy is a complex viburnum hybrid, with V. utile and V. x burkwoodii in its parentage. Look it up in Dirr (p. 1059 in the brown book), for a good description, history, and bibliography. He claims not to have seen fruit on his single plant.

I would suspect that if you have V. utile; V. x Chesapeake; V. x Eskimo; V. x burkwoodii or clones; V. x carlecephalum; V. x juddii; V. carlesii or clones; or V. b*tchiuense, any of which were blooming at the same time as Conoy, then you'd have a shot at pollination. I have several of these, all starting to bloom together right now. I'll be able to report (if reminded) on pollination/fruit set for summer/fall 2003.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

thanks viburnumvalley


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These are STILL not leafed out around here. So late.


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I have some swollen buds on all my V. denatatum, but no leaves. I'm glad too as it looks like we will have a low of 27 tonight!


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I'm a Viburnum newbie! I have a V. lantana 'Mohican' which is supposed to bloom in mid-May. I would like to add a V. trilobum (High Bush Cranberry), which is supposed to bloom in early June. I'm mainly after the berries, as we're using the plants in a bird habitat. Will I get a good berry production with these two?


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

They are not closely related, so the likelihood of increased fruiting via cross pollination is low. Having said that, it might be worth a try for this year. You never know what other Viburnum lurk in the neighbors yards or nearby woods that could do the job for you.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Thanks for the information, Kevin. I will go ahead and give it a try. There isn't much nearby! We live in an area that just a few years ago was open farmland, so there are no "woods" for a couple of miles. Not many of our neighbors have planted much yet. We feel a bit like the Lone Rangers here. Most folks have great big lawns, and our huge expanses of mulched beds with small lawn areas look quite different!


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

If you have $$ to spare, a spot to plant it, and can find one or another of these plants in Iowa, pick up one of the following for more opportunities for fruiting:

V. x rhytidophylloides clones (like Allegheny, Willowwood)
V. lantana clones/seedlings (not another Mohican)
V. x Emerald Triumph
V. burejaeticum

As long as their bloom times OVERLAP, you should have a good shot at fruiting with these partners. To get one V. trilobum will get you flowers; for fruit, make sure it has partners as well, which might include:

V. trilobum (different clone from what you select)
V. opulus (many clones available)
V. sargentii (Onandaga, Susquehanna)

This probably has been written about elsewhere in the numerous viburnum threads. Worth a read, if you haven't already. And persuade your neighbors to be, that life is too short not to have viburnums about.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hey! Thanks for the useful information. I will need to head out and scour the local nurseries.

I'm a bit confused about "different clone". Does a different variety or cultivar mean it is a different clone? How can I make sure I don't have the SAME clone?


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Just don't get another 'Mohican'--a straight V. lantana would work, or another cultivar like the variegated version, or those other related species/cultivars that VV listed. If you decide you want V. trilobum too, the same applies. Don't get two V. trilobum 'Wentworth', as they are genetically identical. Get something else from the VV list above.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Got it! Thanks, Kevin.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

How close does the other viburnum need to be in order to pollinate? Would a Mohican in the front yard and a Mohawk in the back yard?


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Kirsten: in the same yard is good; the closer the better to ensure pollination. The insects flying around are doing the work for you, and if the bloom times overlap then the bugs should be visiting all the plants that are blooming.

That said, Mohawk is a selection of V. x burkwoodii and Mohican is a selection of V. lantana, and besides being rather dissimilar species of viburnum, they don't overlap in bloom time for me. You may not get pollination to occur with these two species.

See the many threads on viburnum and pollination here on GW for ideas for partners for those two plants. If still in doubt or confused, start a new thread or write back. Kevin, David, or I will bombard you with viburnumisms.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Let me sing some more praises for the Johnson's Nursery introduction, V. dentatum 'Red Feathers'. It had wonderful red fall color last year, and it has red emerging leaves right now. It is much superior so far to the other V. dentatum in regards to interesting attributes. V. dentatum 'Raspberry Tart', which is supposed to be a dwarf plant, looks like it will be a mini-mound of flowers(and hopefully fruit as well), with a 30" plant just loaded with flower buds.


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Are the viburnum folks still around? What would be the hardiest viburnum, berries are important. Year round interest, bird friendly. I need some shade off my deck and a place for birds to perch and nibble. I live off the coast of MA/NH. Lots of wind,etc.
Thanks!


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Question for Kevin and Viburnumvalley. I printed out the V. dilatatum and dentatum lists a while back and just the other day took a closer look at them. V. 'Cardinal Candy' is listed as a dentatum, as it is in some catalogs. But isn't it a dilatatum? Fairweather lists it as such, and it does have red berries.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Missed your post laceyvail--'Cardinal Candy' is a V. dilatatum. There is a V. dentatum 'Cardinal' as well.

On a different topic, I recently acquired the land adjacent to my own, 7 acres needing lots of restoration work. It's in sad shape. However, as I cleared the forest of garlic mustard, I was delighted to find the occasional native arrowwood Viburnum! I think they are V. recognitum, but won't know till they grow up a bit. I'll have to beat back the deer population this fall to give the plants a chance to grow up.


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Christie from MO coaxed the following out of me on the Wildlife forum, and it seems to make sense to post here as well. I went out and about in the collection this afternoon and recorded more info on the V. dentatum sequences, against my calendar records. Pardon if my spelling goes awry; I'm buzzing with a wonderful dinner with my DW: oysters of two styles with a nice bottle of champagne from my brother and sister-in-law. Life in KY is tough...
Arrowwood (V. dentatum) bloom sequence in central KY (zone 5a/6b)

1. Cardinal
2. Indian Summer
3. Crimsontide
4. Red Regal
5. Perle Bleu
6. Northern Burgundy
7. Chicago Lustre
8. Autumn Jazz
9. Emerald Luster (listed as V. bracteatum)

FYI: Chicago Lustre, Autumn Jazz, and Emerald Luster are still tight bud; no open blooms as yet compared to the others listed above. Northern Burgundy is just starting to open blooms; the others have completed bloom and are setting fruit.

I have acquired several new (to me) clones this year that haven't bloomed yet, and I do not ascribe them a sequence related to the others listed above due to vagaries of nursery production. They are, and include rooted cuttings that DW has produced and I haven't planted out in the collection, the following:

1. Blue Muffin
2. Blue Blaze
3. Papoose
4. Fireworks
5. Tecumseh
6. Tonawanda
7. Pathfinder
8. Moonglow
9. V. rafinesquianum
10. Pathfinder

Of course, I am still after the elusive Red Feathers that Kevin waxes eloquently about, as well as Saratoga, Raspberry Tart, and the species/varietas in Kevin's original list. Stay tuned.


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VV:

Let me know if you can't find Red Feathers, or Raspberry Tart, or V. molle..... Anyway, since I have found the native arrowwood in my woods(I guess V. recognitum), I am noticing it has some of the same traits as Red Feathers, with a red leaf edge apparent at the moment. Hmmmm....


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Sounds pretty Kevin! Did you mean there are several on your property with a red leaf edge like Red Feathers or just one?
Thanks on the dentatum update viburnumvalley. I'm wondering if the berries will follow in more or less the same order. The birds would probably prefer to have them spread out a little instead of all ripe at the same time.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Christie:

I have found several small plants in the woods with the red leaf edge. It will be interesting to see how they mature!


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I have never seen Rasberry Tart available anywhere :-(((


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OK, newyorkrita, here is my suggestion if you want a Raspberry Tart Dentatum. The plant originates from Lake County Nursery in Perry, Ohio. It is a great wholesale nursery that has introduced scores of terrific plants to gardening. Call their toll-free number which is 1-800-522-5253, ask for Craig Fisher, who is the nursery's sales rep for New York area and ask him for retailers to whom they sell their plants in your state. Take it from there. You may want to visit the website (www.lakecountynursery.com) as it is very interesting with lots of pictures (including 'Raspberry Tart'). I got one of these plants and it is ready to bloom like crazy. It is a dwarf, maximum size 5'x5' with very nice fall color.
Good luck!
Jerry


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

This is my first time posting here. I know nothing about Viburnums except that they are bird friendly. The tags on two that I recently purchased said V. Dentatum Arrowwood. After reading posts re all the different names, pollination and berries, I am really confused. Will they be ok together or do I need another type to get berries? Thanks for your patience and help.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

If the two plants are seedlings(not cuttings from the same parent plant), you will get the increased fruiting that comes from cross-pollination by genetically different plants. Ask the nursery how they were produced.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Thank-you Kevin for your help.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Viburnumvalley was kind enough to post the secquence of dentatum bloom sequence but it still didn't dawn on me that the species was going to be so much later than the named clones. At least in my yard.

My species Arrowood is still green bloom clusters. In fact I am very surprised because I have seen species Arrowood in bloom at least two weeks ago at local nurseries.

Saw both Blue Muffin and Northern Burgandy at the Nursery today. Blue Muffins finished blooming and very small setting berries. The Nothern Burgandy did not have any blooms, must have been too young.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hey Rita - My species arrowwood bloomed first before my other two. Go figure! I think when they mature a bit the bloom time will be a little longer and that will help so they overlap more. Not sure that's right but I hope so. I also suspect that the weather will make a little difference too. Maybe they won't be in exactly the same order every year.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Christie-- The Species I got as nice sized shrubs locally last August and they have grown since then. About 5 feet high now and nice and very full. Afterward, I saw the Blue Pearls at Forest Farm and decided I needed them because they said those were a heavy fruited variety. Should have stuck with the species because now I am going to have to find something for them. Maybe Blue Muffin will do but I am discouraged. Unlike Kevin, I have no urge to own every Viburnum I ever heard of and thought I didn't NEED any more Arrowoods. OH well.....


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I'd wait and see if your species arrowwoods get berries. I only have one (species) that bloomed all by itself and it has quite a few little green berries on it now. I don't think mine is as big as yours so maybe you'll get some berries this year. Yours may have been grown from seed and since you have more than one, they will polinate each other.


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I kept the Nursery tags from my species Arrowwood Viburnums. The are from a Nursery called Pennsylvania Pride. Green picture printed tags. Never heard of them but then not all growers are well known like for instance, Monrovia. It said on the tag ---

" Enhance your environment by planting this outstanding native shrub. Creamy white flowers are displayed in the summer and wonderful shades of orange, yellow and red are provided by the leaves in the fall. Blue-black berries that the birds will love also appear in the fall. "

Well, there was no red and orange leaves, just some off color with yellowish steaks sorts and then nothing. But I really didn't care. Wanted the berries and the shrubs themselves are gorgeous, full and green. Now the shrubs have set berries but they had more berries in each berry cluster when I bought them last year than they do this year. Of coarse, there are upteen times the ammount of berry cluster that there were last year so I guess I shouldn't complain.

As I read and typed the quote from the tag, I just noticed that it said flowers in the Summer. They did flower very late and summer it was. I wonder if that means something or I am making something out of nothing. But everyone else had their species Arrowwoods bloom so much earlier than mine!


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Ok, I picked up a 'Northern Burgandy' as well as a 'Blue Muffin' at the nursery on Thursday. I see that ViburnumVally has 'Northern Burgandy' listed as blooming next in the bloom sequence after the 'Blue Peal'. Hopefully I will get lucky and have overlap. I am not counting on bloom times being the same in my yard as they are elsewhere, but what else to do? I wanted a 'Blue Muffin' anyway and the 'Northern Burgandy' was the only other V. dentatum they had besides 'Blue Muffin'. I doubt that the 'Blue Muffin' and the 'Northern Burgandy' bloom at the same time because plants at the nursery had no fruit set.

I figgure I will pick up whatever dentatum clones I can find locally that I don't have, hopefully cheaply at end of season, and hope for the best.


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I now also have another Species Arrowwood that I got from a local nursery. On sale for half price, a really nicely brached shrub, it has lots of nice green berries. I am hoping for the best here and that I can get bloom overlap on these!!!


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Ha! Berries on the Arrowwoods are starting to get Blue. I remember last year, I was so impatient for them to start turning from green I could hardly wait. This year, I seem to be surprised that they are getting Blue so early. But all in all, it's probably happening at the same time frame as last year.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Thank you for this post. I have two (very young) v. dentatum species, 2 (also young) v. dentatum 'Blue Muffin' and just bought a v. dentatum 'Pink Beauty' and v. dentatum 'Autumn Jazz'. It's nice to know that they'll all help each other produce berries. The birds ought to love me in a few years. LOL


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Croakie: see the link below about your Pink Beauty, replete with photo. You may have gotten your shrub from a similar supplier.

It is probably a V. plicatum var. tomentosum Pink Beauty, which will need a different V.p.t. to cross-pollinate. Keep at it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Is there a V. dentatum Pink Beauty?


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Yes, that is it and I did get it at Lowe's, but it's still a pretty shrub. I'll have to see about getting another variety to pollinate that one. Thanks!


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Found and ordered V. dentatum 'Red Feather' at ForestFarm. They only had it in tubes and I have never gotten the tube size from ForestFarm before so this will be a new experience for me.


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I recieved and planted my 'Red Feather'. I must say, I see no sign of reddish leaves or any red in the leaves at all.


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  • Posted by LNMP z5 NY (My Page) on
    Sun, Oct 5, 03 at 19:45

This weekend I planted a Viburnum dentatum 'Red Feather' that I had purchased from Fairweather Gardens. I also have a 'Blue Muffin' about 15 feet away - that one I planted in August.

It sounds like these two should work well together... Do they produce berries at different times?? This is my 1st experience with these shrubs, and I want to make sure I can keep the birds happy! :)

Thanks for any info.


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Is there another smaller-growing dentatum, that is readily available, that will pollinate 'Blue Muffin'?

A local Frank's Nursery & Crafts store has some nice 2 or 3 gallon, 2' - 3' 'Blue Muffin' viburnums with great fall color for $10.00 each. I am going to purchase one tonight, but need to find something to pollinate it. There are no other viburnums in the neighborhood, that I'm aware of.

I would like 'Raspberry Tart', but that might be too difficult to find. I don't have room for a 10' to 12' shrub, so I need to find something a little smaller (hopefully, it exists).

I have a very small V. prunifolium, but I'm pretty sure that won't pollinate 'Blue Muffin' (it isn't even close to flowering-size).
Thanks,
Mike
(just discovering the great genus viburnum)


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Look for 'Little Joe' to appear on Songsparrow's list next spring. That would work, if the bloom times overlap. Blue Muffin is pretty early for me. 'Little Joe' should bloom for me next year, so I can let you know.


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Thanks for the heads-up, Kevin.

I ordered a couple of trees from the Klehm's this spring and was very pleased with the plants that were sent.
Thanks again,
Mike


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Well, surprise of all surprises. I finially found an Arrowwood Viburnum growing "wild" during my walk today thru the park and nature preserve accross the street. Unfortunately, it looks like it never flowers, being in a very shady spot with large Winterberries growing all around it.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

1) Viburnum acerifolium
2) Viburnum nudum


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Well, here it is almost the begining of December and my Arrowood Viburnums still have green leaves and a few berries left. The leaves never did get any Fall color, just afew darker spots in a very few of them.


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Ugg, will spring EVER get here? I can't wait too see which of my Viburnums bloom and produce berries. Especially in the V. dentatum family as I added hopefull polinators to my collection.


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Nothing going on with the V.dentatum group yet here whereas the buds are swelling on my V. setigerum and the Chipewa Viburnum.


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V. dentatum starting to green up finially.


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I don't want this info to fall off of the forum just yet.
Mike


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I am hopefull that my dentatums will do well this year. I have lots of flower clusters coming along so I should get overlapping blooms. We will soon see.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Kevin, bought a couple of lovely viburnum to put in some new landscaping and was pulling my hair out over the pollination thing (which the nursery did NOT tell me about!), until I came upon your list--THANK YOU! Just to make sure I have this concept correct in my brain...a person would select another variety of dentatum to pollinate another dentatum, or another variety of dilantum to pollinate another dilantum, and so on?
Also, I have purchased a Chicago Lustre that did not have very good information on its tag (fell in love with those glossy leaves!), and am now wondering if it will outgrow the 4 x 6 spot of dirt I have left in my landscaping--is there any way to keep these pruned down to a smaller size?


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

bobbi--you have the concept down pat! Bloom times must overlap of course, to round out the idea.

As for 'Chicago Lustre', it will definitely outgrow the 4x6 spot. They can be pruned--there is even a hedge of Arrowwood at Morton Arboretum. Alternatively, use a smaller cultivar like 'Raspberry Tart','Little Joe', 'Blue Muffin', or 'Papoose'.

Just for reference, 'Little Joe' bloomed as early as 'Blue Muffin', along with V. rafinesquianum. All the other Klehm cultivars('Cardinal', 'Crimsontide', 'Indian Summer', 'Red Regal')were in this early group. V. molle was shortly thereafter, with 'Red Feathers'.


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My Blue Muffin's finally bloomed on June 1st! I thought they were never going to bloom...

Interestingly, there are 13 of them and only 4 have open flowers. It looks like they are going to stagger a bit and make the blooming last longer :)

My Autumz Jazz are just about done, but I may get lucky!

Regards,
M.J.


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Kevin, let me get this straight. Are you telling us that V. 'Cardinal', 'Crimsontide', 'Indian Summer' and 'Red Regal' will all pollinate 'Blue Muffin'?
Just want to be sure.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

They are all blooming together here in Northern Illinois, along with 'Little Joe', 'Red Feathers', V. molle, and V. rafinesquianum. So to answer your question, yes, it would appear all of the above would be decent to use for increasing fruit production via cross polination.


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Went ahead and planted the Chicago Lustre in the small spot cuz it was so pretty there!...may be a big mistake...! Had already planted a Blue Muffin...I guess it will remain to be seen if these bloom at the same here in Central Illinois. I am assuming that if your viburnum can be pollinated by another in the neighborhood, that it is okay if they are separated in your yard?


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'Raspberry Tart', V. deamii, 'Fireworks', and 'Moonglow' are all blooming at the same time for me. The later group, including 'Autumn Jazz' and 'Northern Burgundy' are just about ready to bloom.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

"The later group, including 'Autumn Jazz' and 'Northern Burgundy' are just about ready to bloom."

WOW! I'm just outside Chicago and my 3 Autumn Jazz bushes have long since bloomed...so long ago, that the birds have already eaten 90% of the tiny green(non-ripe)berries.

Surprised at the significant difference in time...and order (my Blue muffin is in bloom now).

Regards,
M.J.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I am not much on proper names of plants. I have a question regarding Lantana. Are there different kinds? Mine does not bush, it just kinda lays next to the ground. I love the flower but don't know much about care. Mine has small clusters of flowers. I have seen some that are taller and more of a shrub. Help please. Thanks Nan


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Nan,
I believe that you are referring to the annual/perennial plant known as Lantana. The plant that might have been mentioned in this thread is Viburnum lantana which is a woody shrub and not related to the plant that you are requesting the information for.

Are the flowers on your lantana yellow and/or red etc.? If so, you might want to post your question in the perennials or annuals forum. If the flowers on your plant match the flowers in the link below, then you should post your question in the perennials forum.
Good luck,
Mike

Here is a link that might be useful: Lantana flowers


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hi,
My dentatum Chicago lustre is going to start to bloom.
All the other viburnums I have are done.
Which variety do I need to get to pollinate it?
Thanks,
Terri


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Bump


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

For terri28907 z7 WA: if you can find one of the other Chicagoland Grows promoted Viburnum dentatum clones, or another from the upper Midwest, you should have an appropriate partner. These clones include the following:

Chicago Lustre (you've got it)
Autumn Jazz
Northern Burgundy
Cardinal
Crimson Tide
Perle Bleu
Red Regal

There are probably a few more, but less easy to find. Check with any of the well-known mailorder retailers to find these, or maybe your garden center/big box retailer may stock them from a major wholesale container grower.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

OK. I posted this in another place and here found the right thread. Here is my problem--I also have just become a new growerofvirburnums (NewGOV). I planted 5 trilobum 'compactum' last fall to have in our bird garden in front of the house. This spring they leafed out beautifully and densely on bushes about 2' high--but no blooms,not one. Is this normal for the first year after fall planting?? And if I want alot of fruit, then I need another virburnum that blooms at the same time--a trilobum different type --alfredo maybe? or one of the opulus? Do I have it right? And how close do these need to be planted to these 5? Thanks!


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Berries on the Species Viburnum dentatum in my yard turning blue already.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

And now the berries are gone, eaten up by the Catbirds and Mockingbirds.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Can anyone give me info on a viburnum called "pragnese"?Size,spread,berries etc?


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Don't want this thread gone yet either! My V. dentatums still have green leaves with just afew getting some yellow coloring at the edges. Seems late to me considering the local Oak trees all have dropped there leaves aleady. But then the local cut leaf maples still have most of their leaves and my other Viburnums such as 'Wentworth' still has all leaves also!


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Just a bumpin'


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

ncmtnmama:

Only 6 months late, but here is an answer to your question "I planted 5 trilobum 'compactum' last fall to have in our bird garden in front of the house. This spring they leafed out beautifully and densely on bushes about 2' high--but no blooms,not one. Is this normal for the first year after fall planting?? And if I want alot of fruit, then I need another virburnum that blooms at the same time--a trilobum different type --alfredo maybe? or one of the opulus? Do I have it right? And how close do these need to be planted to these 5?"

V. trilobum 'Compactum' is a mixed up plant, probably consisting of a number of clones hiding under the same name. Some flower and fruit, some never flower. Give them a year or two to see if they produce flowers. If not, you have the sterile variety. If so, any other V. trilobum, V. opulus, V. sargentii, or V. orientale should do the job, planted withing pollinating range(100'? 200'? more?). Closer would be better of course.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

What is the best looking and fastest growing viburnum without growing into a giant. (for my zone) Thanks


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Viburnum dentatum


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Kevin, what is Vib. "Bailey's Compact?" Is this a trilobum? Is it the same as "Compactum?" I really like this wonderful, understated little shrub. Tough as nails too.

Scott


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Scott--yes, a V. trilobum. Supposedly different from 'Compactum'.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

The V.dentatum are always the last to leaf out in my garden. Most of my other viburnums are greening up, but not the arrowoods.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Bump da' baby


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Couldn't believe my luck at Home Depot today!!!! I bought 'Chigago Lustre' and 'Autumn Jazz' for $6.95 apiece. Really nice little shrubs almost in flower. They are way ahead of anything I have here now. I figgure from being forced in a greenhouse or down south but both should flower at the same time so they can pollinate each other.

Wasn't really going to add any more V. dentatum as I thought I had enough but I couldn't leave those shrubs behind. I swear as soon as I got near those display racks with the Viburnums those shrubs just started calling me to take them home! I thought they were so eager that they practicaly jumped into my cart themselves.

I read on the labels they can get big, 10-12 feet. And I know from some of the other dentatum here that they can grow fast. I have the perfect spot for them, were they can go as high as they want in back of some scraggly Azalea shrubs I have in a border next to my driveway.

So now I have V. dentatum -
Chicago Lustre
Autumn Jazz
Northern Burgany
Blue Muffin
Red Feather (2)
Blue Pearl (6)
Species, very late blooming (2)
Another Species (1) that bloomed after the first two last year (bought from a different source at a different time).

I hope everything gets berries this year!!!!!


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hmmm, I was at HD just yesterday too. I looked all over specifically for viburnums and found none. Maybe I'll try again this weekend. I did, however, pick up 'Northern Burgandy' at Lowes on Weds. A nice 2 gallon 30" tall specimen for $14!.

Now I have 'Autumn Jazz', 'Chicago Lustre' and 'Northern Burgandy' in the same bed. Hopefully they will cross pollinate as all have abundant flower buds on them.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Yes, I saw the same two viburnums Chicago Lustre and Autumn Jazz at HD and bought them, too. I first thought that they would all be the same clone but looked anyway.

They had just a few plants tucked away. They should have been displayed more prominently


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

bump


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Here is a picture of 'Raspberry Tart' where you can see how a dwarf V. dentatum grows differently, with a more spreading habit vs. the straight-up branching of your typical V. dentatum. This is a nice little plant, by the way.
Image hosted by Photobucket.com


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I have ordered Autumn Jazz and Blue Muffin and I think I may have made a mistake in size especially for the Autumn Jazz. Thought it was going to be smaller for some reason. I want to have it in my front yard and I am worried that it might get too big for the area. Is it OK to trim them to keep them smaller. I saw that they bloom on old wood so is there any way I can trim them so that I won't lose the flowers and fruit. Is there a good time to do it? I know I won't be doing any trimming for a while but just wonder if it could be cut back before I make a decision on where to plant it. Thanks


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Beautiful shrub Kevin. Can you offer a pollination partner for it?


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V. dentatum & Friends bloom sequence 2005

With room running out on this excellent thread, I thought I'd add the Viburnum dentatum and allies 2005 central KY bloom sequence to date. Certainly, another thread could be started but this current list can go into all the logs that are being saved on this wonderful plant.

The plants are listed from earliest blooming to latest, as they are behaving here in Scott County KY as I type.

IN BLOOM (OR VERY WHITE BUDS)
Crimson Tide; started 5/14
Blue Muffin; 5/17
Red Regal; 5/17
Cardinal; 5/18
V. rafinesquianum (KY source); 5/18
Chicago Lustre; 5/18
Indian Summer; 5/20
Perle Bleu; 5/20

STILL IN GREEN BUD, BUT NEAR BLOOM (imagine cat spreading paws)
Autumn Jazz
Northern Burgundy
Moonglo
var. deamii
Blue Blaze
Fireworks
Tecumseh
Tonawanda
V. bracteatum Emerald Luster

STILL VERY TIGHT BUDS (imagine cauliflower head)
Little Joe
Red Feather
**NOTE** The above two I just acquired from a northern IL source, so they are not going to be in sequence this year; Kevin et al with older plants may be able to list them in the correct group this year.

NO FLOWER BUDS IN 2005; NEXT YEAR
Papoose
Raspberry Tart
V. bracteatum
seedlings originating at VV
and clones yet to be named...

I hope that this list is matched by Kevin and others with collections, and that it is a beginning in sorting out the issue of what blooms with what, and approximately in what order so that ANYONE can have successful arrowwood fruiting.

Thanks to all who've participated in this effort.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hi, Viburnumites, Re: Pollinators. Will be happy to compose table if forum users want to mail me the info. Suggest table headings:

Latin Name Common Name Zone Bloom Date Known Pollinator

Do we need additional info? Please advise, thanks. LT


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I purchased a Michael Dodge while living in TN, spring 2004. I dug it up (Dec. 2004) and brought it with me to IL. It started to bud this spring, then we had the late freeze and it appears to be dead. Is it??


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Well, reaching 100 doesn't necessarily mean having to say you're sorry (to see a good thread go).

This was a fun thread to review, with almosts three years of posts (and counting). The evolution of the discussion is rewarding, with the travails and eventual solutions each coming in turn. I'll be interested to see if original contributors will post again, to relate current conditions and experiences.

I'm going to add some long lists here; these will include bloom sequences (tracked in KY) AND an update of Kevin's original lists of V. dentatum and friends (with known clonal and trademark names, and originator of the plants).

The V. dentatum family and friends list (from Feb 2003), repeated with a few additions:

V. bracteatum
V. bracteatum 'Emerald Luster'(named by Dr. Michael Dirr)
V. rafinesquianum
V. rafinesquianum var. affine
V. deamii (also V. dentatum var. deamii)
V. molle
V. molle f. leiophyllum
V. recognitum
V. dentatum var. lucidum (V. recognitum)
V. dentatum var. scabrellum
V. dentatum var. verrosum
V. dentatum var. pubescens
V. dentatum var. dentatum

V. d. clones with trademark or registered name, ('cultivar name'); originator or introducer if known

Autumn Jazz ('Ralph Senior'); Chicagoland Grows
Chicago Lustre ('Synnestvedt'); Chicagoland Grows
Northern Burgundy ('Morton'); Chicagoland Grows
Blue Muffin ('Christom'); Christom Farms Nursery, WI
Red Feather ('J. N. Select'); Johnson's Nursery, WI
Cardinal ('KLMthree'); Beaver Creek Nursery, IL/WI
Crimsontide ('KLMsix'); Beaver Creek Nursery, IL/WI
Indian Summer ('KLMeight'); Beaver Creek Nursery, IL/WI
Little Joe ('KLMseventeen'); Beaver Creek Nursery, IL/WI
Red Regal ('KLMseven'); Beaver Creek Nursery, IL/WI
Blue Blaze ('Blubzam'); Lake County Nursery, OH
Fireworks (Firzam?); Lake County Nursery, OH
Papoose (Papzam?); Lake County Nursery, OH
Pathfinder (Patzam); Lake County Nursery, OH
Raspberry Tart (Rastzam?); Lake County Nursery, OH
Saratoga (Sarzam?); Lake County Nursery, OH
Tecumseh (Teczam?); Lake County Nursery, OH
Tonawanda (Tonzam?); Lake County Nursery, OH
'Moon Glow'
'Perle Bleu'
'White and Blue'
'Canby Downy Viburnum (pubescens? V. d. var. canbyi?)

Enough for one post.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Thou must be bumped.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I've really been enjoying reading your comments about the various types of v. dentatum!
I live 35 miles inland from the Gulf in southeast Mississippi, and I had HUGE damage to my 5 1/2 wooded acres in Hurricane Katrina. I used to have a dense, very shady woods with real tall trees - now there's a lot more sun! I'm working along with a hired crew to clean the fallen trees out. I'm in the process of trying to figure out which viburnums to add - I love them all, since the berries are such a hit with birds and squirrels. I had viburnum ashe or v. dentatum var. ashe growing on the west and north sides of my house, but the workmen pulled out all the shrubs on the north side when they were taking out the piles of tree trunks in the area. V. ashe is like the regular v. dentatum, but the leaves are considerably smaller, and the bloom clusters are smaller but more numerous than v. dentatum. I bought and planted v. ashe instead of v. dentatum, because I just happened to find it for sale at a native plant nursery in Louisiana - it's native to the coastal counties just south of here, and it grows on my property prolifically. I find seedlings everywhere!
I've ordered some evergreen blueberries to plant on the north side of the house in their place, but I want to add a lot of viburnums to my now sunnier woods. Of course I'll dig up many of the v. ashe seedlings that I find, grow them in a container, and then transplant them when they're big enough to to recover from the possible loss of some of their leaves due to browsing deer. I've ordered 2 v. rufidulums - I need more small trees, but I can't decide which v. dentatums to order. I've got a native v. dentatum - large leaf - that came up on its own several years ago near the house, and the greater abundance of sunshine should help it to bloom more. Should I just try to root v. dentatums from this volunteer native, or do you think there are some cultivars that I should order?
V. nudum is also native to this area, but it only grows naturally along creeks. I've got a watershed/hollow on my property which is usually a flowing stream about 4 months of the year and wet most of the rest of the year, only drying out during the very driest summers. 'Winterthur' is the cultivar that's available through most mail-order nurseries - is it really smaller than the species?
Any suggestions you have as to what species or cultivars of species I should plant would be appreciated - I'm in zone 8b.
Thanks!
Sherry


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hi Sherry,

I will defer to the other more learned folks on this site about your situation. If I "bump" this thread up, maybe Kevin or Viburnum Valley can answer your question.

Betsy


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Double V is no longer here at GW. Kevin, I believe, is still here occasionally.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I've already ordered my viburnums, and I've potted them up in containers big enough for them to grow in until they get enough size that they could survive having a lot of their leaves eaten by deer or rabbits, and big enough that a deer couldn't step on the whole plant. I've got 4 v. dentatums (species) - 2 from north Florida and 2 from Tennessee - and I plan on trying again to root a couple more from the v. dentatum that's growing here, a volunteer. The leaves on the v. dentatums from all 3 states look just alike, but I've read on this forum that it's good to have unrelated plants to increase fruit set, so it can't hurt to have plants from varied provenance.
I also ordered 3 v. rufidulums, which are growing very fast in their containers, and I'll probably dig up some of the v. ashe seedlings that are coming up EVERYWHERE and grow them in containers to plant later. One of the v. nudums that used to grow in the bottom of the hollow has resprouted - I hope the deer or rabbits don't eat it, because I can't figure out a good way to protect it. I've got some Deer Off - I'll try spraying it with that.
Viburnums are great, because, in addition to being wonderful plants for wildlife, they're SO easy to grow!
Sherry


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

What happened to VV? Does he post at another forum?


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Yes, VV has moved to on to Dave's.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Bump...the good viburnum information...


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

  • Posted by ademink z6 Indianapolis (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 12, 07 at 13:05

I'm SOOOO excited! My Autumn Jazz and Blue Muffin both have blooms forming at the same rate and time!!! YIPPEEE


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hi,

If I get a single Viburnum lentago, will it at least produce some fruit? Some sites claim it is self-fertile, and others reject this view; I think the truth is that some fruit will be produced. All I want is some.

Steve


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

just like you, birds need the basics�"food, water, and shelter. Give them these staples, and they’ll be more than happy to visit your yard and perhaps stay awhile. But to provide birds with a true haven, remember that diversity is the key. Grow a variety of plants, such as those suggested here, to serve birds with a healthy menu of their favorite dishes.
-----------------------------
fchris

Here is a link that might be useful: Online Dating


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hi,

Can I plant a Viburnum lentago (Nannyberry Viburnum) [or Amelanchier canadensis, for that matter] on a shallow-soil location that has only 9" soil above the bed rock? I live in zone 6b and I'm concerned that the roots will not be deep enough to escape the freezing temperatures that can temporarily dip down to around 5 bellow 0 F.

Would this be an acceptable situation for a viburnum?

(I'm actually going to plant two of these right next to eachother so that they insculate [bond], forming a mutually fertilizing pair).


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Hi,
I need some experienced advice based on the spread/growth habit of Viburnum lentago (Nannyberry Viburnum).
I want to plant two Viburnum lentago shrubs in my yard - I need two to ensure fruiting. I know that (under optimal conditions, when left naturally as a multiple-trunk shrub as Ill grow them) Viburnum lentago can reach around 18 to 20tal; Im not sure of the spread on a 20 tall specimen, but I think it would be around 10 to 15?
My situation is this:
I have a single 12 gap in my landscape and a separate 7 gap (which is in heavy shade). I could either both shrubs in the 12 gap or one shrub in the 12 gap and the other shrub in the 8 gap.
1. If I grow the two shrubs in the 12 gap (allowed 6 spread each), would they still grow to a tall height? I want them to grow tall for privacy and I read from one source that when their spread is restricted, they do not grow as large I hope that not as large means not as wide, net not restricting the height.
2. If I grow only one of the two shrubs in the 12 gap, will the other shrub out-of-view grown in a tight 7 gap in heavy shade produce too few flowers that not much pollination between the two.
3. If I plant the two in the 12 gap only 1 apart, would the two root systems inosculate (fuse, natural graft) so that, in effect, one shrub would be formed that bares flowers from both originals.
4. If I plant the two 4 apart and give them a little more spread (opening the gap to 15 total), maybe since they can spread out freely on opposing ends and only have dense mutual shade in between them.
5. Would you recommend I leave one in the 12 gap and leave the other in the small 7 shaded spot in the corner of the yard, but remove scion wood from the second to be grafted onto the first? I would hope that grafting viburnum spp is not difficult, although I would imagine that this might require some upkeep since they are always putting out more suckers and perhaps crowding out old ones.
Thanks,
Steve

So, to recap, I need two for cross-pollination for fruiting, and I would like at least one of the two to grow around 18 tall.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

I want the Viburnum lentago shrubs to take up a lot of space. Ideally, I'd like them to grow 12' wide by 10 to 12' tall after decades of maturity, but I'm afraid that they will grow 12' wide by 20' tall.

I would plant them 12' apart - two of them in partial sun against a fence. I hope it's that V. lentago will grow taller only when given full room... maybe I better place them closer together - like 6' apart. I do not want to have to prune them; I'm into natural landscapes and want to work-out an arrangement conducive to the trees natural expression of growth habit. I want them as understory shrubs, so if they get taller then 12', I wont be able to pick fruit from the native fruit tree that they will be under.

Thanks,
Steve


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The Perfect Pollinator for All Your Viburnums !??

I have BM and was looking for mate and ran across this site..

Is this info complete sales rubbish then?? Seems to contradict everything about same species/bloom for cross pollination!

http://www.waysidegardens.com/gardening/PD/41841/

The Perfect Pollinator for All Your Viburnums:

A superb shrub in its own right, with fragrant blooms, berries, and fall foliage changes.
'Winterthur' has been an enduring favorite since its 1961 introduction, both as an ornamental Viburnum in its own right and as a reliable pollinator. Enjoy its blooms, berries, and fall color to the fullest, but don't be surprised if neighboring Viburnums throughout your garden begin to flower and fruit more heavily as well!
...
And while 'Winterthur' is showing off, it is also pollinating Cardinal Candy, Blue Muffin, and every other Viburnum in its vicinity. Most Viburnums will set flowers and fruit even if grown solo, but they are far more productive if grown near a pollinator. 'Winterthur' is the perfect candidate to beautify the entire Viburnum garden. Zones 5-9.


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RE: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

  • Posted by ademink z5a-5b Indianapolis (My Page) on
    Sun, May 23, 10 at 16:28

I am not God...lol...but I would say that's rubbish. My experience has been that Winterthur blooms much later than my v. dentatums do.

I have BM and purchased an Autumn Jazz - planted them literally right next to each other...touching.

LOADS of berries. They bloom right on time w/ each other and for 3 years, berries galore. Autumn Jazz is gorgeous in the fall, as well.

Stick with another dentatum, for sure!


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