'Red Regal', 'Cardinal', and 'Blue Muffin'(shade) all opening now.

Add 'Indian Summer'--all the Klehm cultivars are early bloomers. They would all work together or with Blue Muffin.

None of my dentatums are in bloom yet!

Rita:

You must have the most freakish conditions for zone 6/7 of any place. Is there a leftover Pleistocene glacier next door?

I'm plowing through bloom cycles for the arrowwoods (all the ones Kevin has mentioned are already finished here, with the Chicagoland series just ready to open) here in central KY, and it hasn't been extraordinarily warm. I hope yours go on and perform.

I remember the SAME thing happened last year. You guys were both going on about the blooms and my dentatums were no where near blooming. They are not anywhere near blooming now.

My chipewa, which is a dilatatum cross is in bloom and my V. setigerum has finished blooming. None of my V. dilatatum are blooming yet. My Shasta and Shoshoni are blooming and my Wentworth and native V. trilobum are blooming. My V. Opulus only has the outside sterile flowers open, not the inside flowers. I hope they open to pollinate the Wentworth. My Wintherthur and Count Polaski are not ready to bloom and my V. cassinoides had no bloom buds this spring in spite of flowering and setting fruit heavily last year.

My dentatums are all done and starting to set berries here except Chicago Lustre which is just starting to bloom. I have Autumn Jazz, species and Blue Muffin. I'm not sure my Blue Muffins bloomed at all. I may have planted them in too much shade or they could just be too small. My species dentatum bloomed first and then Autumn Jazz but they overlapped a little. They're just on opposite sides of my yard. I planted another arrowwood this year that wasn't dentatum and now I can't remember what it was. ??? I think it would be native to Missouri because I got it through our conservation department.

Red Feathers and V. rafinesquianaum now blooming. So to sum up, at this point, all these would work together for cross pollination purpsoses:

1)Little Joe
2)Red Regal
3)Cardinal
4)Blue Muffin
5)Indian Summer
6)Red Feathers
7)V. rafinesquianum

I know I am chiming in on a different species but this thread got me to thinking about some dilatatums in my garden. This is the second full growing season for three cultivars in my garden. I'm probably going to swamp the entire neighborhood with dilatatums in the next decade(can't bring myself to cut them at least until I see berries-which is then too late!), but I was noticing differences in timing among my three. Catskill was mostly finished before Michael Dodge and Iroquois had barely a few open flowers on one or two inflorescences. MD was second to full bloom and Iroquois last. Here is Catskill in full bloom on May 10.....

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:252930}}

AT LAST!!!!! My Arrowoods are starting to bloom! What a difference two hot days make! My blue muffin has more than half her bloom clusters completely open.

My red feather is just about popped. Some of the tiny flowers in the bloom clusters should be open later today or tomorrow for sure!

The three Blue Pearl that I have close to the Linden Viburnum are also opening with some just open bloom clusters with many more coming.

The other three Blue Pearl, which are up on Azalea Hill, are not ready to open at all. The Northern Burgandy next to them is way far behind, looking like its not opening for awhile. Maybe it will bloom with the species shrubs on the other side of my house. Those were my FIRST Viburnums, are growing hugh and look awsome!!! But the bloom clusters on them are VERY green yet. Can't find any buds on the last of the species shrubs that I bought year before last to bloom with my original species. It didn't work and that lone shrub bloomed even after the first two.

Yes, things here are very strange. However, it looks like I am going to get cross pollination so should have berries for the birds. Maybe what with the warner weather we are having yesterday and today, the others will bloom sooner, who knows!

My Asian Beauty Linden is just starting to open too. Cardinal Candy and Michael Dodge not open but I don't think they are really far behind.

Wentworth trilobum done blooming, hope to see berries. Also Shasta and Shoshoni done, should get berry set there as they were on the same schedule. As usuall, the Setigerum Viburnums set berries very heavily.

Add V. molle and 'Moonglow' to the list. V. molle marks the first plant to bloom that would be too late to cross pollinate the first plant to bloom, as 'Little Joe' is done.

Thanks for the info Kevin! I will probably try to add a pollinator for my two Blue Muffins this fall if I don't get berries. I did notice two "wild" Viburnums blooming in the wooded area behind my house. They are about 150' from my Blue Muffins and I don't know if they are Viburnum dentatums or not and I don't know if they were planted at some point in the past, if they are native, of if they are bird planted seedlings.

I purchased my two Blue Muffins from Home Depot earlier this year so I don't know how far off they are from their normal schedule. One is near peak bloom now and the other seems to be a week or two behind. June is pretty late in the year for shrubs to still be leafing out for my area but they are starting to look pretty nice. I guess they can stay. ;-)

Rita: I would love to see pictures of all your Viburnums. How big of a yard do you have?

- Brent

Which ones were the prettiest in flower Kevin? Did you notice whether any of them were a brighter white than the others?
My Chicago Lustre had the prettiest flowers of my three which was nice since it hasn't gotten very good reviews for fall color. It's almost done though and it just started. I hope their bloom time lasts longer as they mature. The other dentatums were done when its blooms opened so it will be interesting to see whether it gets any berries. It had a few last year I think. I should plant another later one (maybe 'Red Feathers'?) to pollinate it but I'm running out of room until I start something new.

Thanks for the info Kevin.

There is one of the Klehm cultivars that has very nice flowers, but I didn't write down which one! I don't think I moved my Chicago Lustre over to the new place, so I can't give you its place in the bloom sequence. VV has it blooming early with Blue Muffin, Perle Blue, and the Klehm cultivars. Red Feathers would work for you. Raspberry Tart is now opening for me, to get back to the thread topic.

1)Little Joe
2)Red Regal
3)Cardinal
4)Blue Muffin
5)Indian Summer
6)Red Feathers
7)V. rafinesquianum
8)V. molle
9)Moonglow
10)Raspberry Tart

I have a suggestion. There was a kind G-webber who sent me an Excel file she built that allows you to load your bloom times in a data sheet and then they are charted on another sheet. It is awesome - very useful for tracking the bloom sequences and colors for planning. I'm using it for perennials and colorcoding the chart page. I don't know how to upload a copy of this to a central place but would be happy to pass along a copy of it. Could someone more knowledgeable open a free webpage somewhere put their bloom times in the data sheet? Then everyone could see what happened at your place. I know that we all have enough variation in our microclimates that it can affect bloom times, so its probably most useful in your own yard.

The only V. dentatum I have is Blue Muffin and its flower buds are just now starting to open completely. It seems to be blooming later in zone 6b than Blue Muffins in zone 5. Maybe because it was such a cold May in New England. Or because this is the first year that mine bloomed.

Leslie

Variance to add, but different than last year...

I'm in a western 'burb of Chicago and both my Blue Muffin and Autumn Jazz have just finished blooming. I was thrilled to have them going at the same time! I took some blooms off of each and manually cross pollinated :) I can't wait to see the berries! Of course the birds won't let them stay for long...

The weird parts here are:
1) last year Blue muffin was later than Autmn Jazz. No overlap.
2) My Autumn Jazz seem to be earlier than other folks! They were completely done last weekend (June 4th)...no remaining blooms of any sort.

2cents,
M.J.

I'm willing to keep running this into the ground, till it makes sense.

**It's always possible that one (or more) of us have gotten mislabeled plants, or transposed/lost labels of what we knew (thought?) we had.

**It is possible for inclement/unusual weather or pests/diseases to affect when a plant begins/ends blooming (cold, heat, drought, flood, defoliation, decapitation).

**It is possible for the age of the plant (or proximity to the time of initial planting) to affect its current bloom time.

BUT.....once established, the bloom sequence should remain the same for all the clones despite our different geographic circumstances. That's why I'm acquiring new plants of all the named clones and planting them in replicates of 5 in a long nursery row on level ground. There, I should get pretty much a reproducible situation of what blooms in what order, without variable effects of moisture/soils/sunlight.

That which does not kill you (or your viburnums) makes you stronger.

V. deamii, an absolutely wonderful relative of the V. dentatum group, started flowering today.

Add Fireworks to the list.

1)Little Joe
2)Red Regal
3)Cardinal
4)Blue Muffin
5)Indian Summer
6)Red Feathers
7)V. rafinesquianum
8)V. molle
9)Moonglow
10)Raspberry Tart
11)V. deamii
12)Fireworks

....and Viburnum dentatum var. pubescens

1)Little Joe
2)Red Regal
3)Cardinal
4)Blue Muffin
5)Indian Summer
6)Red Feathers
7)V. rafinesquianum
8)V. molle
9)Moonglow
10)Raspberry Tart
11)V. deamii
12)Fireworks
13)Downy Viburnum(V. dentatum var. pubescens)

Kevin,

I have a suggestion that I think will make your efforts more valuable...

Find a way to show overlap (or maybe just bloom duration).

I'm thinking that folks will not be able to interpret the sequence such that they can know what is too far apart to be a good cross polinator (i.e. would Little Joe work with Fireworks?). And it's probably not "fair" to limit choices to the one closest to it (i.e. Little Joe needs Red Regal).

Or maybe it's not overlap, but likelyhood of cross polinating. You could chart/categorize them Very likely, Likely, maybe, longshot, and nope. Or something like that :)

What do you think?

Regards,
M.J.

I had the same though as M.J. Maybe you could include bloom start, and end dates (and maybe peak date).

BTW, Is "Little Joe" supposed to be a smaller Viburnum? I searched and could not find any info. My Blue Muffins will likely need a pollinator and it is hard to just squeeze a 12' shrub into a 1/4 acre landscape.

- Brent

Here's what I posted at #98 of Kevin's Viburnum dentatum and Friends thread (now on page 7 of this forum), but didn't want to wipe out the last few posts before 100. I'd be happy to update the dates listed below, if anyone would find this information from KY useful. All my arrowwoods have completed their bloom cycle except Autumn Jazz, Little Joe, and Red Feather, which still had some hold out blooms. I have all the dates for the condition of the flowers as noted in the copied post below.

Posted by: Viburnumvalley z5/6 KY on Fri, May 20, 05 at 7:40

With room running out on this excellent thread, I thought I'd add the Viburnum dentatum and allies 2005 central KY bloom sequence to date. Certainly, another thread could be started but this current list can go into all the logs that are being saved on this wonderful plant.
The plants are listed from earliest blooming to latest, as they are behaving here in Scott County KY as I type.

IN BLOOM (OR VERY WHITE BUDS)
Crimson Tide; started 5/14
Blue Muffin; 5/17
Red Regal; 5/17
Cardinal; 5/18
V. rafinesquianum (KY source); 5/18
Chicago Lustre; 5/18
Indian Summer; 5/20
Perle Bleu; 5/20

STILL IN GREEN BUD, BUT NEAR BLOOM (imagine cat spreading paws)
Autumn Jazz
Northern Burgundy
Moonglo
var. deamii
Blue Blaze
Fireworks
Tecumseh
Tonawanda
V. bracteatum Emerald Luster

STILL VERY TIGHT BUDS (imagine cauliflower head)
Little Joe
Red Feather
**NOTE** The above two I just acquired from a northern IL source, so they are not going to be in sequence this year; Kevin et al with older plants may be able to list them in the correct group this year.

NO FLOWER BUDS IN 2005; NEXT YEAR
Papoose
Raspberry Tart
V. bracteatum
seedlings originating at VV
and clones yet to be named...

I hope that this list is matched by Kevin and others with collections, and that it is a beginning in sorting out the issue of what blooms with what, and approximately in what order so that ANYONE can have successful arrowwood fruiting.

Thanks to all who've participated in this effort.

Here is a link that might be useful: Viburnum dentatum & Friends

Autumn Jazz finishes off the flowering for me. Somewhere in there I missed Northern Burgundy, I can't find Chicago Lustre, and Perle Bleu has not bloomed for me yet.

1)Little Joe
2)Red Regal
3)Cardinal
4)Blue Muffin
5)Indian Summer
6)Red Feathers
7)V. rafinesquianum
8)V. molle
9)Moonglow
10)Raspberry Tart
11)V. deamii
12)Fireworks
13)Downy Viburnum(V. dentatum var. pubescens)
14)Autumn Jazz

As for overlap, I would just group them together. For instance, I would be quite confident that the first 5 on the list would make excellent cross-pollinators. Red Feathers and my V. rafinesquianum seem to cover the first five as well. It gets more difficult as you reach #7 V. molle and beyond. V. molle would not have worked for my Little Joe. Look at my posting dates to get an idea of how far apart cultivars/species are blooming. YOur species plants may differ, but the cultivars should be in a consistent order. My order matches that of VV despite our geographical difference. Try to get cultivars that are starting to bloom within days of each other(not weeks). Most dramatic is seeing my Blue Muffin loaded with green fruit, and Autumn Jazz in full flower. Realize too that all the blooms on a single plant are not always in sync. For instance, Raspberry Tart has mostly spent blooms, but also many blooms that are at their peak, and would do some decent cross pollination on the very late group.

Brent--Little Joe is supposed to stay small. It is a Klehm cultivar, but I have only seen if for sale locally. Nice plant, big flowers, fruits heavily, but has zip for fall color. Try Gary at Classic Viburnums(308-425-3057)--perhaps he could mail order you one.

The first bloom cluster opened on my two species arrowoods. There is a Northern Burgandy already blooming so maybe it will hold on long enough for cross pollination. Looks like ALL six of the Blue Pearls did well on being pollinated as they all set berries.

So my species is in full bloom and the last one is too with one whole bloom cluster. Northern Burgany is finished blooming so we will see how we do with setting berries. This hasppens every year here and those species Arrowoods are the last Viburnum to bloom in my yard every year. They look really good though, with the lastest being about 7 feet tall with lots of blooms.

Can't wait for all the viburnum berries to get ripe. I have never had such a great berry set on my shrubs. Maybe all the buying of MORE viburnums has finially paid off. None of the berries are blue yet so the birds don't have them to eat yet. Once they get blue, they have not lasted long in past years as Mockingbirds and Catbirds, amoung others, scarf them down all day long.

My two Autumn Jazz had berries a couple days ago but I noticed yesterday evening they're completely gone now. They went quickly. I'm sure it was mockingbirds. The berries on Chicago Lustre are still green.
Kevin and VV - yours must be loaded with berries since you have so many different varieties. Mine didn't overlap like I wished they would. I don't expect it to be exactly the same every year. It will be interesting to compare the order of bloom next year for yours and see if they're about the same. My Autumn Jazz was done before Chicago Lustre started but it was in the opposite order for VV.
Do you have any that didn't have a good crop of berries?

All the V. dentatum had good fruit crops, and the duration has been as stated by Rita and Christie: the birds just wear them out, esp. the mockingbirds. The recent month plus of drought weather hasn't helped the ripening and persistence, but the birds don't seem to mind that, either. 2004 was the overwhelming bumper crop here, with way above average rainfall through summer months.

The situation with bloom sequence reveals what is more than likely a labeling problem in the trade. I'd be willing to bet that many of these easy-to-root species (with no really discernable differences in leaf, etc.) are mixed up, mislabeled, and sold as such to retailers to distribute. You still have a perfectly fine plant, just not the exact plant you expect. I have confidence that mine are what they are supposed to be, but proof? I can only compare what I have and observe to what is supposed to be the known. That's why I think the multiple members of GW that have a host of these plants, if they would keep the methodical records and post them herein, perform the valuable service of vetting the viburnum bloom sequence.

Christie, I'd bet dimes to doughnuts that your plants were probably mislabeled, with the Chicago Lustre being the earlier bloomer and the Autumn Jazz the later bloomer. If one was able to examine each, and compare them to known specimens, one could make that diagnosis. Autumn Jazz has a much thicker heavier texture to the leaf, really only matched by Emerald Luster in my collection. Chicago Lustre has a dark green leaf, but much less thick/heavy.

Comparing this to the behavior of these plants from the nurseries that made the selections, and checking it against botanic garden and arboretum records, and one can more confidently state facts.

Until regular DNA testing (one might call it a birth certificate) comes with the plant label, then it's still somewhat like shooting craps when buying some plants.

I am surprised that my species Arrowoods did set berries heavily this year and most of the berries are still there, not having been eaten up my the birds yet. The berries on the Blue Pearls vanished very quickly. I am thinking this might have something to do with the fact that the Blue Peal Viburnums are in the mixed shrub row on one side of the property and the species arrowoods are on the other side. Still, not really far apart as my property is not large.

This year I have a small 'grove' of Pokeweed 'trees' on the side near the species arrowoods and they are just loaded in berries. I think the mockingbirds prefer the pokeweed berries as I always see them in there scafing up berries.

boo bump ee doo

I miss viburnumvalley on this forum.

He's posting away at the other place with Guy, Kevin, Resin, etc, etc.

I know. I go there sometimes too but I like this forum.

Viburnum Plicatum Tomentosum (Mariesii)
I want to plant this Viburnum and am having trouble finding one in the same species to plant with it so it will make berries. Anyone have any comments about the Mariesii? I am enjoying this forum!

Another of those must read Viburnum threads.

Viburnum dentatum and nudum cultivar bloom order by first open blooms in Tennessee (NE corner of state near TN/VA/NC border in southern Appalachia)

1. Viburnum dentatum Little Joe May 2 (group 1 cross pollinator)

2. Viburnum dentatum Blue Muffin May 4 (group 1 cross pollinator)

3. Viburnum dentatum Autumn Jazz May 4 (group 1 cross pollinator)

4. Viburnum dentatum Raspberry Tart May 6 (group 1 cross pollinator)

5. Viburnum dentatum Northern Burgundy May 15 (group 2 cross pollinator)

6. Viburnum dentatum var deamii May 18 (group 2 cross pollinator)

7. Viburnum dentatum Chicago Lustre May 20 (group 2 cross pollinator)

8. Viburnum bracteatum ‘Emerald Luster’ May 20 (group 2 cross pollinator)

9. Viburnum dentatum ‘Sparkler’ (still in pot) May 24 (initially appears to be best pollinated by Chicago Lustre or V. bracteatum, but this might change somewhat once the plant is put in the ground and is established)

10. Viburnum dentatum var. scrabellum around June 1

11. Viburnum nudum ‘Pink Beauty’ May 20

12. Vibunum nudum ‘Winterthur’ May 22

13. Viburnum nudum ‘Brandywine’ May 21

Although V. nudum blooms overlap with the late group (group 2) of V. dentatum here in the southeast, they will likely not cross-pollinate due to their different chromosome number (2n=18 vs. 2n=36 or 54).

It is interesting that Kevin near Chicago and ViburnumValley in Kentucky have later blooming Autumn Jazz plants while Gary at Classic Viburnums and I found Autumn Jazz to bloom early and is able to pollinate Blue Muffin (and others in group 1). I wouldn't be surprised if different vendors are selling 2 different cultivars and calling both Autumn Jazz. This could be responsible for this variability. It is also unexpected that Little Joe blooms so late for ViburnumValley while its the first to bloom for Kevin and me.

Nice to hear from you again, ViburnumValley.

Hi beng:

I recognize your name from long ago. I hope gardening continues successfully up your way. Spent quite a few years traversing your area going to national board meetings in Washington DC and Millville NJ. Should've revived communications back then, and maybe could've stopped by.

There's always, tomorrow...