Scott

I bought mine from Walmart, so you would expect they wouldnt understand the pollinator concept. But this weekend I was in another nursery that should have known better. They had at least 20 large 'Winterthur' clones and not a pollinator in sight. I should have got them to load them all into my truck, say "Oh, I'll need one pollinator", and then make a large return when they couldnt come thru. Come to think of it, I should repeat this at about 5 other local nurseries that have jumped naively on the 'Winterthur' bandwagon.

...That sounded a little passive-agressive, or something, to be sure... Perhaps I should chill and take courage in the fact that I did finally find a male skimmia. Or, just resort to mail order.

I'd bought, a couple of years ago, my Winterthur for a dear (as in expensive) price from a local nursery that has a nice website and thousands of different kinds of plants and a spot on the local PBS station on a weekend a.m. Lovely bush, lovely shape, lovely size. It went through a year in the yard with nice blooms and no berries. Then I asked the key question.

Needless to say, I was initially quite annoyed that the nursery neither told their customers they needed a mate for the Winterthur NOR sold a mate.

In their defense (yes, I'm OVER it), they do hire very knowledgeable staff, who can tell you a whole lot about the plants they sell. But buying a Winterthur and expecting someone at the nursery to know what you need to know about he plant is sort of like going to the doctor when you have an ache that is not the 'typical'. You'd better know something about what is going on or you might go for years without the right 'solution'. Thank goodness for the internet and the forums so we CAN get and share information!!! Good luck on your getting the right mate for your Winterthur. For now, I'll just hope that old cassinoides will work for mine...

With viburnums, fruiting comes from cross-pollination of self-incompatible plants, which is NOT the same as the reference above to winterberries (Ilex verticillata). The genus Ilex, holly, typically has plants that are dioecious (male flowers on one plant, female flowers on a different plant from whence form fruit). These male and female plants must still have overlapping bloom times, in order to have fruit set. Viburnums are monoecious, capable of producing fruit from perfect flowers on every non-sterile plant (yes, there are some like that, too, to add to the confusion) as long as a cross-pollinator BLOOMING AT THE SAME TIME is within insect distance.

The solution has several parts. First, if one procures only seedling grown plants, one is guaranteed genetic diversity and pollination. Unfortunately, this is a genus that is primarily produced through cuttings (vegetative propagation) and these offspring are genetically identical to the parent plant. These might be named clones like Winterthur, or they could be identical cuttings from a plant found in the wild. What to do?

The second route to follow is to plant more than one named clone of whatever your chosen species happens to be. For the case discussed here, Viburnum nudum, the general choices are Winterthur; Count Pulaski; Earth Shade; var. angustifolium; Calloway Large Leaf; Calloway Small leaf; and any seedling grown from the species. But here comes the kicker.....V. nudum is native from Connecticut, Long Island to Florida and west through Kentucky and to Louisiana, all this covering zones 5-9. Hmmm...guess what happens when you have clones from different ends of this spectrum? If bloom times don't overlap -- no fruit. Count Pulaski was selected in Arkansas; Winterthur was selected in Delaware; the Calloway types are from southern Georgia. As for V. cassinoides as a cross-pollinator, it is the most closely related species. Some authors lump Vcass and Vnud together. Vcass is native from Newfoundland to Manitoba, and Minnesota south to Georgia. I suspect most plants in the trade hail from the north, so you could expect them to bloom at a much different time than zone 7 sourced Vnuds.

Mail ordering plants adds to the confusion, since where you bought it from means nothing to the provenance (where the plant originated). You could easily buy all the above Vnuds from one grower, and that might be in Canada, Mexico, Europe, or anywhere in the US. The provenance of the clones will all still be different.

This leads to the value of botanic gardens, arboreta, great texts on plants, personal knowledge of plantsmen, and doing extensive web searches BEFORE investing heart and soul in the persnickety world of growing things.

To reddirt, spec4lover, hoehoehoe, LoraxDave, and NYRita: good luck in the continued search for pollinators for your locales. Keep posting your experiences, making notes on bloom sequence for others to learn by. Kevin has been tracking a lot of this in some of his posts (do a Google search to find old threads that have dropped off the list here, for a bonanza of this info previously discussed).

And a final challenge: nominate a better common name (so that people remember it and want to actually plant these plants) for Viburnum nudum (smooth witherod) and Viburnum cassinoides (witherod viburnum). Raisin viburnum is not an option, in my book.

My Cassinoides was a shrimpy little thing this year, so it was like the 5' giant looking to the 1' dwarf for some help in the mating department. The dwarf had no blooms, so... But the Cassinoides is growing by leaps and bounds and I hope it will overlap in bloom time. I'll let you know when it gets large enough to bloom.

I'm with reddirt...I want the berries.....they sound as though they look wonderful!!!

On a separate, but sort of related subject, I do have a nice limb of red red berries on my viburnum mariesii--what a knockout!!! They are really cool. Hopefully next year the rest of the bush will decide to bloom so we can have a real show in July with the green leaves and the rows of bright red berries.

Good luck to all of you and do keep posting experience with v. nudum regarding berries and mates. I will probably not give up if my v cassinoides doesn't work, but will hunt another mate...

I think my Count Polaski will have berries. It bloomed just as the very last of the Winterthur planted next to it was blooming. Got a berry or two on the Winterthur but it was too late for most of the bloom clusters. But hopefully not too late for the other way alround. I need for the berries to develop some before I am absolutely sure.

Anyway, my Count Polaski deffinately has berries. What a kick. The last one of my Viburnums to bloom in my yard.

I'd like to get my own hands on some nudum seed.

Best I can gather, you isolate and wash the seeds when they ripen in the fall, sow outside and while a few may germinate the following spring, mostly it will take until the next. But I haven't tried it- so the voice of experience is warmly invited to contradict me!

Good Luck if you try it!

there is very little difference between v. nudum and the selection named 'winterthur', i can't tell them apart. v. nudum is really easy to grow from cutting and you could do that right now.

V. x juddii (V. carlesii x V. b*tchiuense) is in no way related to V. nudum, except being in the same genus. Short of keeping Juddii in a refrigerator for a couple months, there's no chance of overlapping bloom time with V. nudum.

Smooth witherod is the lousy common name that needs an alternative so that this wonderful native shrub gets more usage.

I am sure this is not unusual as the nursery were I purchased my shrub had nothing to polinate a Winterthur either.

The Count Polaski has set fruit very heavily and the green beries are coming along nicely.

Does the source of the Winterthur make any difference in its bloom time? I can get one locally here easily and not from the same source or reportly not from the same grower, as the one I already have. Or I could order from Fairweather Gardens. I am not sure of the best choice here.

My Winterthur has more than last year although the cassinoides was definitely not a contributor. But the dwarfy little cassinoides is growing well this summer and I have hopes for the future.

Self-fruitful yes; self-pollinating, not so much. There are anecdotes otherwise; I'll not argue against them. Overwhelming experience, though, says multiple plants fruit best.

Almost (notice this isn't absolute) every Viburnum plant is capable of producing fruit, if it is cross-pollinated by a genetically different (but similar species) plant. The very few sterile Viburnum out there often have 'Sterile' in their name. For example:

Viburnum opulus 'Sterile'

I believe plain old Viburnum plicatum (NOT var. tomentosum) is given species status, but none of the plants I'm aware of can set fruit. This is an Asian species, grown for millenia, and probably individuals with showy sterile florets have been selected and selected and selected for all these years, till what we sell/grow today has lost the female flower parts for reproduction. A mule, so to speak, only reproducible by cloning.

There are Viburnum trilobum, a native species, that have been selected for one trait or another like compactness, that also set few/no fruit. Similar situation to above.

Additionally, many of the complex parentage hybrids set few fruit simply because they are planted exclusively clonally; bloom at odd times; and/or the parent species aren't around to do the pollination.

Gardeners do well to learn some of this before purchase, or be prepared for disappointment (or a trading opportunity!) afterward. But isn't learning the point?

There are still those on GW that insist that "pure species" is the only way to go. They must not understand that Viburnum nudum 'Winterthur' IS a pure species native plant, as well as all the selections of Viburnum dentatum, etc, any plant that doesn't have complex (multiple species) parentage. It occurred as a seedling plant at Winterthur Gardens in Delaware (or PA?), and was selected and vegetatively propagated because of its outstanding flower, foliage, fruit, and form. I believe this to be the best way to introduce little-known and little used native plants to use by the general public. The learning process begins with adequate exposure. The follow-through is providing the information and opportunity to plant a non-identical clone of Viburnum nudum with Winterthur so that the great fruiting occurs.

Use of Winterthur, esp. in the northeast metroplex, is MORE environmentally/wildlife sensitive (if that is the gardener's intent) than planting seedling grown native plants originating in gene pools from other parts of the US.

Seems to me, for this thread, that a clearinghouse of V. nudum clones/species/sources needs to be set up by the thirsting throngs. Someone with a propagating thumb should root cuttings from all the contributors, and in one season the problem could be solved. V. nudum is one of the easier plants to root, and with enough variation in the sources everyone can end up with an appropriate pollinator.

Donors should include (from previous posts):

Winterthur
Earth Shade
Count Pulaski
var. angustifolium
Calloway Large Leaf
Calloway Small Leaf
any others known
unnamed seedlings or wild collected cuttings

Does anyone have these clones in a mature enough state to peg relative bloom times? I am hoping to get Count Pulaski to bloom next year so I can see if it blooms along with the late-blooming Winterthur. My V. cassinoides was way early, completely done before Winterthur even thought of flowering. Do the V. nudum seedlings flower coincident with Winterthur?

Don't forget V. cassinoides, or for that matter, V. prunifolium, V. lentago, V. rufidulum, and V. x jackii should all work to cross pollinate the V. nudum group as long as bloom times overlap.

I have never sen EarthShade listed for sale at any of the Catalogs I get.

Since the berries are blue, does that mean its time to pick them for the seeds inside to be ripe?

hoe_hoe_hoe -- I could send you some of the seeds if you think they are ripe, e-mail me off the forum on the link on my page.

Sarah, unless some other of my new found knowledge has escaped me, you will need either a different v. opulus or v. trilobum. Stay away from 'Roseum', as it is sterile and won't help. Be aware that there are both compact and golden leafed cultivars to be chosen from if they are of interest or better suited to your needs. Actually, I wonder if V. opulus var americum is a synonym for v. trilobum, also called "American Cranberry bush" as opposed to V. opulus which is usually called "European Cranberry bush"? In any case, they are both related enough to pollinate, so as long as you don't get two with the same cultivar name or two straight species which have been cutting propagated from the same source plant, you should be fine. Be aware that var. (variety) is not the same as cultivar, so if my above synonym theory holds out, V. opulus var. americum and V. trilobum could prove to be the same thing. I would stay away from buying a pair thusly marked from the same nursery unless its clear they originated from different sources. They may have just changed their minds about the taxonomy. Good Luck!

My concern is that if I buy another V. trilobum from a local nursery, it may turn out to be a genetic clone of the one I bought the previous season.

How do you ensure that you are buying seedling stock and not clones?

And, are there various cultivars of V. trilobum that could be used as cross pollinators for the species on I have?

Alfredo, Hahs, Wentworth are three clones/cultivars that are generally available retail in the cranberrybush viburnum group. They were even selected up in the northeast, so they should perform fine for Cady.

Thanks again!

Not so! They must be more closely related than just the same species.

I'll be sure to get one of the cultivars suggested above. Thanks again for the advice.

Looking on the upbeat side, at least now we DO know, so
here's the original question I was researching (hope Kevin
or Viburnum Valley are reading this): if two mail-order
nurseries from whom I could purchase V.nudum 'Winterthur'
are specifically offering v.nudum as a pollinator, how
can I be sure the two plants are from the same zone, i.e.
will they bloom at same time? Second: one of the nurseries
is selling the v.nudum as the "male" needed for my (assumed) 'Winterthur' - but didn't one of VV's earlier postings say that viburnums are monoecius (not separate
males and females)?

At long last, I hope I'm on the road to real berry production, which is what got me so interested in these
magnificent plants in the first place - and just in time,too, as the birds were beginning to give up on me!

Now to get berries on the cassinoides do I need to buy another one from another source? I got mine from ForestFarm in 2002.

http://www.starplants.com/catalog3.cfm?Botname=Viburnum nudum &Pla nt=Shrubs

If you click "Pollinator" you will see the item I noticed.

My problem is that I have "Pollinator" and not "Winterthur." Do I need "Winterthur" to meet the needs of "Pollinator?" Or can "Pollinator" go it alone and flower and produce fruit?

Quite some time ago, the pollinator went bright red, stayed that way for some time, and recently gave up its leaves. In contrast, the Winterthur is still trying to figure out if it wants to stay green, go dull red, get measles, get yellow, get brown, keep its leaves, or lose its leaves.

I hope these two Starplant mates, which are 5 feet apart, settle their differences over the winter and get their act together for next Spring.

It really sounded like someone had been cleaning out their desk drawers and took the opportunity of seeing my phone number to try to drum up a little business before pitching it. Could it be that lack of customer service has hurt business? To be honest, I've made several "pity purchases" at this nursery. That's where I go, look around for half an hour at EVERYTHING that they've got and then realizing they don't have anything worth getting excited about at even a semi-competitive price, I'll pick up some small perennial or two that I already have or didn't really want just so that they MIGHT make enough to pay the help's wages- the one girl that smiles and waters things and frets behind the owners back about the new shipment of shade plants that the owner insists be displayed prominently in the sun. When the girl isn't there, its not uncommon for the owners to sit inside without making an appearance while I mill about outside for a good amount of time- sometimes gathering substantial purchases about me. This phone message has made me think- why shop here at all? Why not shift the remaining 15% of my nursery patronage onto the OTHER independant operation in town- the one that treats me like royalty everytime I walk thru the door because I'm there at least 3 times a month and they are as excited about plants as I am. REALLY! Its either that or I'm going to sit them down and say, "Listen! What are your goals here?" I would love to videotape my experience at my favorite nursery and then play it for these guys operating just around the corner with their "neat native shrubs and stuff".
I'm not usually so critical and if I don't like a business usually I just won't go there anymore, buts it nice to have several nurseries to choose from and for there to be some sense of competition between them. Obviously, they do compete for my business and the business of other gardeners like me. Problem is, only one of them seems to know it- or care.

I LOVED your post!

Scott

Does this sound like Winterthur? Thanks.

BTW: grub out the roses, and go gaga with all the viburnums you're missing!

I noticed last year, birds did not bother with the fruit, it stayed on ALL winter into late spring.

Thanks.

Terry

I posted as Imissmydaphne in 2004 and found the Starplants nudum pollinator at a local nursery and bought it. I planted it about 5' feet from my Winterthur and both plants were loaded with berries in 2005. I'm not a fan of viburnum and know little about them but these two plants work hard with their blooms, the changing colors of their berries, and the Fall coloring. I even bought two more for the back of my yard.

I've added the Starplants link with the two together. Good luck with your plants.

I think I've read it 5 or 6 times now over the years. Learn more every time.

You are on the right track. You will have cross-pollination, and all your Viburnum nudum selections should be loaded with fruit come late summer/fall - provided they all flower.

Some additional information, for those confused by cultivar names versus trademark names.

V. nudum 'Bulk' is the exact same thing as V. nudum Brandywine(TM). People who select and name plants do this, because the trademark protects that name for that plant, so that others don't swipe it and use it for another plant in that species. The cultivar name is not protected. To make it worse: neither of these refer to patenting of plants, which is a whole 'nother route to follow.

Good luck with your viburnums - you have two fine selections that should provide you with plenty of show for years to come.