I was re-reading Kevin's list for clones, but wondered if there was confirmation available in my vicinity.

TIA

So, that may work for you also. However, the bloom time will need to overlap (obviously mine does here in Georgia).

Viburnum dentatum ‘J.N. Select’ Red Feather® Arrowwood Viburnum
Zone 3 H: 8-10' S: 10-12'

By the way, 'Blue Muffin' will also be that size judging by the reports of everyone growing it. It is by no means a dwarf. You could use 'Little Joe' to cross pollinate if you want something that stays small and blooms at the same time as 'Blue Muffin'. You would have to mail order it from Classic Viburnums 308-425-3057

My quest for berries continues.

By the way, half of my mapleleaf bloomed earlier than the Blue Muffin and that half does not have any berries as a result. Only the half that bloomed concurrent has berries on the mapleleaf.

Last year the deer ate all my berries, however! I have lightly sprayed the foliage with deer off in the hopes of keeping them this year.

Bob

Can anyone reading offer input?

Could dilatatums's do the job as long as bloom time is the same (of course)?

The days when Wayside Gardens were reliable are long gone.

I have space to plant another shrub if that would help. But did you ever figure out what the problem was?

Anyone have advice about this now?

I was so frustrated with the Blue Muffin over the summer I hacked it back. It was falling over. It's in full sun. I had 0 berries on it. I also have an american cranberry near it, like you. The only hope I have for my new 'Red Feather'(planted fall '06) -helping to make berrys on 'Blue Muffin'- is that maybe the bloom time will be a little earlier next year, to coincide with BM's bloom.

I haven't done anything else as yet.

Thanks

seagreen_turtle

I bought a Vib. acerifolium, per eshga's advice, last fall from Fairweather, but it didn't bloom. In fact I lost half of it from wilt or something , I don't know. No insects on it, plenty of moisture, early morning sun for 3-4 hours, it looks peaked.

I'm waiting to see if it picks up any before the season shuts down, before I make a call on getting a 'Little Joe' or not. It looks like 'Deamii' is a full scale size one...10-12' I guess? The Fairweather guys are great.

Glad you finally got those berries! It is a delight when they blue up on my Chicago Lustres.

I bought a Vib. acerifolium, per eshga's advice, last fall from Fairweather, but it didn't bloom. In fact I lost half of it from wilt or something , I don't know. No insects on it, plenty of moisture, early morning sun for 3-4 hours, it looks peaked.

I'm waiting to see if it picks up any before the season shuts down, before I make a call on getting a 'Little Joe' or not. It looks like 'Deamii' is a full scale size one...10-12' I guess? The Fairweather guys are great.

Glad you finally got those berries! It is a delight when they blue up on my Chicago Lustres.

I bought a Vib. acerifolium, per eshga's advice, last fall from Fairweather, but it didn't bloom. In fact I lost half of it from wilt or something , I don't know. No insects on it, plenty of moisture, early morning sun for 3-4 hours, it looks peaked.

I'm waiting to see if it picks up any before the season shuts down, before I make a call on getting a 'Little Joe' or not. It looks like 'Deamii' is a full scale size one...10-12' I guess? The Fairweather guys are great.

Glad you finally got those berries! It is a delight when they blue up on my Chicago Lustres.

Looks like you are in perpetual repeat mode...

If you don't find what you are looking for by traditional methods, give a shout. I have a lot of 'Little Joe' in gallon pots, many more field grown. It wouldn't be hard to bare root a couple and fire them off to you.

I appreciate all esh_ga's comments, but I'm not sold that Viburnum acerifolium cross-pollinates with Viburnum dentatum at all. I have hundreds of plants of Arrowwood here at the Valley, and a couple Mapleleaf viburnum. I should have fruit out the wazoo on the Mapleleaf by that measure, and I don't.

I'd make sure you get a Viburnum dentatum that overlaps in bloom time with what you have, and that'll ensure good fruiting. With propagation practices what they are at many nurseries, your Arrowwood may not be what it was sold as. That really doesn't matter, as long as it performs the way you want it to (sizewise, fall color, whatever), but it makes it hard to match a cross-pollinator appropriately - especially when the range of bloom time of the twenty-five or so different Arrowwoods I grow here covers four weeks or more (early/mid May to early/mid June), and the first ones are done bloooming before the last ones start.

Viburnum dentatum var. deamii is a full size plant, a great big glossy-foliaged globe. You'd like it, even if you didn't have room for it. It is NOT an early bloomer, though.

Keep providing updates; there is more help waiting in the wings...

It certainly is working for me, at least 3 years in a row here, but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone. After all, blooming at the same time is KEY. So I assume, VV, that yours bloomed at the same time but still no fruit on the V. acerifolium? I got berries galore on mine. I'm sorry it hasn't worked for you.

By the way, I got 3 V. dentatum (plain species) about 3 years ago. This year, one of them set about 5 blooms, but they bloomed WAY LATER than anything else in my yard. I thought "no way those guys will set fruit". By golly, those 5 clusters are solid berries!! What the heck happened?

I have been disappointed with 'Blue Muffin', by the way. Berries are set, but they never last to turn blue. I don't know if they are falling off or deer are eating them?

In the meantime, my V. nudum var. cassinoides has lovely berries on it - when they were in the pink stage, it looked like a blooming plant again! My neighbor was quite envious.

Paula, hope your V. acerifolium recovers. Would be happy to send you some seed from Georgia if you want to grow some more.

There's no one out there that will say viburnums can't self - just that they generally don't do it well. Your seedling (I assume; you didn't specify) Viburnum dentatum could very well be doing so.

I believe that in GA that there are plenty of opportunities for other viburnums to be present to cross-pollinate with yours and other viburnums in the neighborhood. Since flying insects are doing the job, their flight patterns are the key factor during overlapping bloom times and appropriate hosts make the difference.

Which brings me to why I'm not necessarily convinced that you are getting cross-pollination between Viburnum dentatum and Viburnum acerifolium. There is plenty of science to suggest that those two species are NOT compatible.

It is typical to find possible and actual hybrids between disparate Viburnum species with the same chromosome number. In the case in question here, Viburnum dentatum has a chromosome count of 2n = 36, whereas Viburnum acerifolium has a chromosome count of 2n = 18. It isn't likely that Arrowwood viburnum would spontaneously cross with Mapleleaf viburnum.

More likely, Viburnum dentatum would hybridize or cross with species of like chromosome number such as Viburnum molle, Viburnum recognitum, and Viburnum rafinesquianum, which are all also 2n = 36.

But science aside, I'm interested in what is real. Have you tried growing out any seedlings from the purported crossings? This would be quite a bit of proof in the pudding. Seedlings of solely Arrowwood/Mapleleaf viburnum crossing would produce some interesting progeny, if there was indeed no selfing going on, and no interlopers from outside your garden. I'd bet that the successors of the late Dr. Egolf's work at the US National Arboretum (from whence the chromosomal count data derives) would be excited to receive some of this genetic material. Heck - I'd be ecstatic to have seed from that.

Their research is ongoing, and some named clonal plants from Dr. Egolf's controlled hybridization are still being evaluated and released. The latest is called 'Nantucket'; I got to see it when I visited there in May. I tried to link to a story about it, but it wouldn't attach so one will have to Google for new National Arboretum viburnum introductions and read about it.

Yes, I realize it is possible that the very late blooming V. dentatum plant (a species seedling that I bought from a native plant nursery) could have pollinated itself, but I was especially surprised to see SO MANY berries developing.

It is funny that you mention seedlings - just two days ago I noticed a seedling under the birdbath that looks to be an offspring of the V. acerifolium. I shall carefully dig it up and keep it in a pot for a while. That is the first seedling I have ever noticed and I have not tried to propagate any myself. I just let the birds have them or they fall to the ground.

I'd be happy to send you some fruit/seed, btw. The berries are ripening now. Heck, I'll send you this seedling if you want! You know how it is - I got more plants than I can deal with sometimes!

As I said earlier in this thread (3 years ago now?), the V. acerifolium consistently only sets fruit on the blooms that coincide with the 'Blue Muffin'; the lower half of the bush blooms earlier and NEVER has produced fruit. The 'Blue Muffin' sets a small amount of fruit, each cluster is only partially pollinated. I bought the V. dentatum species plant (3 of them actually) to help pollinate 'Blue Muffin', but two are in too much shade to bloom and as I said the third one bloomed really late.

Hi VV, thanks for your input. And I'm particularly happy to see you back once again on GW! Have always enjoyed reading your posts. I would very much like to take you up on your offer of 1 or 2 'Little Joe' s. I'll email you -

Esh_ga , it's frustrating waiting 3 years for results - lol. I hope the V. acerifolium picks up. Regardless of the pollinating I wanted it for additional nativity in my yard. If you have any growing advice that would help. I have acid clay soil, it's backed by a couple old Pseudotsuga menziesii's, azaleas and rhododendrons. Should I give it a 'shot' of something? I'll take a picture of it later and post it.

btw, I grow 'Winterthur' V. nudum var. cassinoides, and agree on the fantastic berries. Now when I bought those 3, the tags were clearly marked, and I got 1 "pollinator" for the other 2. They're growing nicely.

Do you grow any perennials nearby to compliment your nudums?

I would not recommend anything other than adequate water, mulch and a little compost from time to time. Have you gotten a lot of rain this year?

You're right, 3 years is a long time to wait. I have a couple (or more) plants which I'm "waiting" for too - like my Chindo viburnums that have never bloomed and are huge now!! But I got them for screening anyway.

So I'm thinking about returning them and buying something that's going to flower AND produce berries ... without me having to get yet another plant to pollinate. I have several American Cranberry Bushes in the yard. I also have a Witherod, Blackhaws, and a Onondaga cultivar. Oh, and several very young Mapleleaf viburnum.

Can you guys recommend a beautiful native, or native cultivar, that would get no larger than 8-10' wide ... look good against a red house ... and berry? I really love the Cranberry Bushes (Trilobium) but I've resisted because I'm concerned the red berries won't show against the house. I might give in. My Witherod is very young and I haven't actually seen it bloom yet ... a possibility?

I still am not entirely clear either on whether a single native Arrowwood (Dentadum, not cultivar) would fruit on its own with these others around.

Do you have any Ilex verticillata's? 'Winter Gold' would pop against a red background - same as Winter Red bloom time, if you have either of the guys - Apollo or Southern Gentleman for pollenation. The gold's berries look almost neon in winter.

Update on my quest, halfway to the goal.... my V. dentatum 'Little Joe' and 'Compactum' are now blooming in sequence with my Blue Muffin. Now it's up to our insect friends...I hope so...if I had even half the amount of berries from the prolific blossoms on it now, it would still be a good show in the fall.

It makes me angry that all the ad hype about this does not mention any of these issues!