Be bold. Coppicing is not difficult. Just take your secateurs, if the stems are thin enough, or a pruning saw if they are not, and cut everything off just above the ground. You are not aiming to shape the shrub so it really doesn't matter where you cut, although if you want to be extra careful you can cut at an outward facing bud with the cut sloping away from the bud. After coppicing 2 years is not a long time to recover (read the last paragraph of the link).

Here is a link that might be useful: Coppicing information

That was a very helpful article, flora. Perhaps I don't really want to coppice, because the two year absence of foliage left quite a hole in the garden. A trim to two feet may be more appropriate for my borders, which are not huge. A large shrub counts for a lot.

I also appreciated the link because I've been thinking about subscribing to a new gardening magazine this winter. I am gathering opinions on one, and now I have the chance to ask you about RHS publications. I'm little confused about how many there are and which would be appropriate for the home gardener with a lot of experience and knowledge.

What do you think?

thanks, Marie

The main RHS publication for the general reader is 'The Garden' magazine which I would certainly recommend you trying. It is not too populist but not a dry specialist read either. If you actually join the RHS you can set it against your US tax and you would receive the magazine as part of your membership. Although the nomenclature and the practical advice in the magazine are British you sound to me like someone who would find it interesting to read about a differnet gardening culture.
The link gives you a flavour of the magazine. The RHS also produces hundreds of other publications. It's all explained on their website. Best wishes Flora.

Here is a link that might be useful: Articles from October issue of 'the Garden'

somewhere in mid michigan ... is the 45th parallel ... halfway to the north pole

if memory serves... Eng is at about the 60th parallel .. or 2/3 of the way to the north pole ...

but due to the north atlantic drift .. the air currents swirling over the atlantic .... there are z9's there ... go figure on that ... add on top of that... low summer high temps.. lack of winter snows ... and a bunch of other things we may take for granite ... including the declination of the sun ... e.g. they consider all hosta full sun plants.. because the intensity of the sun dosnt harm them.. like it does further south ...

so ALWAYS keep in mind.. that any type of british CULTURAL info will not be very useful in the US ...

and i hope any given reader understands what cultural info is ...

so.. use said source for design inspiration ... general plant knowledge.. and any other use you can find ... but you will need to do further research to find out if the plants they talk about.. will work in a zone equivalent setting in the US ..

ken

I'm with you here, Ken.
Now make a leap: I wonder if my plant's very very slow recovery from the severe cutting back could could have been due to the environmental differences between zone 5 MA and anywhere, England. The shrub remained a STUMP for a year, only a few buds even broke through the first year. Again, This little border couldn't afford to lose all that structure, color and foliage for two years.

Personally, I think it went into shock. It didn't have any leaves to make cholorphyll (although no deciduous plants have leaves to make leaves, do they, at the end of winter. I wonder if I cut it back too late in the season? I don't remember

could yours have been in too much shade .... as a giant.. up in the sun .. but once cut down.. in shade???

when i bought my first house ... i got a purple leafed smokebush .... and learned my first lesson on planting foundation plants more than a few feet from the foundation ...

a few years later .. my cute 2 foot plant was scrapping on the gutters ... blowing on the windows... etc ... probably 8 to 10 feet tall ...

so i trimmed back to a manageable 4 feet ... next thing i knew... it was 14 feet tall ... no more than a year or two later ... that would be the 4 feet i cut it too .... plus the ten it immediately grew back to ...

this is a shrub i would rank in my 'run it over with the truck list' .... there is no reason .. inherent to the plant.. that yours should have sat there with little or no growth for so long ... especially with the huge undisturbed root system ...

i think i got 3 to 4 feet of re-growth the year after cutting it down ...

i dont know what to tell you about what happened to yours ...

perhaps... the best idea would be to kill it.. as it is most likely wrongly sited for its potential... and go buy a another 10 dollar plant.. and plant it where this whole issue is moot ... at some point.. its easier to give up ...

i seem to recall trying to dig one up once.. but gave up.. since its root system is as large and problematic as what you see above ground ...

this is not some foo foo expensive plant .. mess with yours until it irritates you enough to be done with it ...

ken

ken - you are right about a lot of the conditions over here but hostas are not considered full sun plants by any means.

I did warn that RHS PRACTICAL advice was geared to the UK but there are many articles on design and other aspects of gardening as well as descriptions of gardens in many countries.

Here is a link that might be useful: hostas in the UK

The one I cut back didn't suddenly gain sun or shade. It's going sit where it is until as you say, I get tired of it. It is behaving ok. I didn't plant this one or the one below anywhere near the house. That's one bad gardening habit I don't have. Maybe the only bad gardening habit I don't have!

What's with cotinus "purple cloak" or maybe "royal purple" Now this one is a big honkin' tree. Beautiful...it keeps its purple all season,and its too big to move. Must be over 20 feet tall.

Flora, (is your name Flora?) thanks for the information. I understood what you were saying and I knew that you and Iknew about the limitations of a UK based publication.

If I join the RHS I'll ask them how to cut back the cotinus "tree" to a manageable height.

Ken, by manageable I really mean "esthetically pleasing to me" I'm sure the tree is managing itself just fine. But it is disproportionately big for a modest garden. I'll giveit a hair cut and it can buy a couple more years of life.

Marie,
I have had many a smoke bush and tree.
I will explain coppicing to you, try to picture exactly what I am saying.
BEFORE it leafs out in Spring, ONLY Spring,(when the forsynthia start to bloom), look at the shrub or trees FRAME. It has the main trunks, and then branches off the main trunks, or trunk, you want to severly prune only the branches that come off the trunks or trunk.
You can prune any branch back to the TRUNK, not cut it all the way down, (it's not neccesary unless you absolutely hate it), leave about 3-4 inches of branch stub on the trunk.
It will look nice and more even if you try to prune as many branches as possible down to 3-4 inch stubs because they will all grow in nice and new, and bloom beautifully.
Don't touch the main frame, just the branches.
It will look strange with these 3-4 inch stumps off the trunks, but you will see it grow in fast and the foliage is all new.
Spring, prune just the branches down to 3-4 inch stumps, don't touch trunk, before it leafs out.
GOod Luck to you next spring, I hope you really are pleased with the new foliage that grows for you.

butterfly4u - that is a very detailed description of one method of pruning a tree or shrub but it is not coppicing. The term 'coppicing' has a very precise meaning and it involves cutting ALL stems down to the ground.

Here is a link that might be useful: Coppicing

butterfly, thank you very much. Those are instructions I can understand.
Flora, even the technique is not the traditional coppicing, do you agree it would result in more densely branched growth with greater visual impact?

If the trunk is not touched will not the tree continue to grow taller. Perhaps not, since it doesn't have a central leader.

And Flora, would you say the term coppicing is often used incorrectly to describe cutting back shrubs or trees to produce denser growth of new branches? What is it called then?

I feel I need to reiterate the fact that cutting the cotinus back to nubs did not work well for its placement in the garden. It took two years for it to leaf out again and the garden looked like it was missing two front teeth.

Thanks for keeping this discussion going!
Marie

I don't know about usage in the US but over here coppicing is used only to refer to the method I described and usually in the context of woodland management rather than I gardening.

Regarding butterfly4u's pruning method, I have tried to visualise the results, as it is certainly not a method I have ever used. Because it leaves stubs of branches sticking out from the trunk(s) I don't think it would result in a shrub shape I would like to have in my garden but it is a matter of taste and might appeal to you.

As your conditions are so different to mine and I don't know your tastes I can't really recommend what would be best for you to do with your Cotinus. But best of luck with it next season.

1) The Garden - too British for my taste. Much of it talks about local gardens and British issues. None of the articles include zone information which in my mind distinguishes a good gardening mag from a bad one - at least for gardening in North America. most pictures are too small to enjoy. I like Fine Gardening. If you already get that one - not much else to choose from.

2) Coppicing has the same meaning in North America. The technigue described by Butterfly4u is NOT coppicing. Coppicing will result in a low bush the first year. If the shrub has not been pruned for several years it might go into shock and not grow much the first year.

3) I don't think the description by Butterly4U is what you want. This will result in a plant that will keep getting taller.

4) I will guess that you want the shrub to be both shorter and less wide. Maybe even less dense. Prune in Spring.

I would first cut for desity. Cut out stems to ground level to thin out the bush. Take out the oldest stems. Since new stems will grow back you really need to thin a bit more than you want or else after the first year it will be too thick again.

Next cut side branches that point into the center of the bush and cut right back to the main stem. This is less for estetics and more for the health of the bush. it will also have an effect on the density of the shrub. With a bit of experieince you can do this step along with the first step.

Now cut for height. Cut every branch to a point where you are happy with the height keeping in mind that the bush may grow 4 feet next summer. Don't cut every branch to exactly the same height - that does not look natural. Vary the cut heights by 1-3 ft.

Now cut for width. Cut side braches back to a length that meets your need - again taking into account this years gorwth.

Don't remove more than 1/2 of the shrub. You may have to do this trimming over a couple of years.

In future give the shurb a trim each spring to keep it shapped to the size you want.

Goggle "prunning" to make sure you are making good cuts.

madtripper - the Garden is certainly British but I did say before that "Although the nomenclature and the practical advice in the magazine are British you sound to me like someone who would find it interesting to read about a different gardening culture." I was not recommending it as a guide to gardening in the US. It is obviously intended for a UK readership. It contains no zone information because we have no zones to speak of here - the whole country is more or less similar and I doubt many UK gardeners would even know what a 'zone' was. I am surprised you find the illustrations too small but that may be because it is not primarily a picture magazine, it is an informative periodical. There are plenty of other gardening magazines here, but they are more practical, more picture heavy and less serious than the RHS Garden. For a lay international audience I would still recommend the Garden. Luckily some of the content is available on line, free, so difficult choices are avoided.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Garden

Hi Everyone,
I want to thank everyone for their ideas. I have enjoyed the back and forth of ideas I think madtripper gave me the kind of information I can use, with caution. All of you reiterated something that I forget: that the plant will put out growth the same season and that figures into the amount you prune off.

I also enjoyed the discussion on the liguistics of "coppicing" I love language and be a bit of a stickler myself. So I appreciate that Flora wants us to understand the correct use of "coppice."

Using "coppice" makes one sound so much more informed than the word "prune" a commonplace verb but more accurate in this case.

Yep, I am sure I shocked the tree with the heavy pruning. I do remember it was not in early spring. Bam! Pow! A one-two punch!

If anyone else wants to pitch in an idea feel free!

Marie

Hey, Marie -

Here are some photos and drawings, perhaps less in a gardening context than in a woodland management context, as Flora mentioned above.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wikipedia on Coppicing

you HAVE to do it in early spring; otherwise it takes forever to come back. while whacking to ground is fine IN EARLY SPRING; you can also whack trunk and branches to 12" and see if you like results.
mindy

p.s. EARLY SPRING

Hi Mindy,
Did you say early spring? You asked about coppicing a particular plant a short time ago, didn't you? I wondered if you'd find this thread. Yes, I coppiced that smoketree way too late, and I've already told what happened. HIbernation for 2 years.

What shrubs have you 'coppiced' and what's been the results?
Marie
btw,Mindy, and this is OT,
The container gardening forum is a place you to check out about a "gritty mix" for your dozens of amaryllises and container plants.

Idabean,
I am surprised this thread is still going LOL!
Coppicing is chopping the entire shrub all the way down to 6 inches as soon as the little leaf buds start to swell.
I gave you the pruning way of doing it because I very carefully read your original post in which you stated that you had already coppiced it and you were disappointed in the way it looked and it took a couple years to come back.
I have grown many a smoke bush, trust me, so I took that statement into account and told you to cut it back
to the FRAME of the bush.
Yes, it will grow taller for you then.
Technically, to coppice is to chop the bush down, all the way down to the ground.
Very few trees and shrubs can handle that and grow back in one season and look nice, BUT the smoke bush and the smoke tree can.
So can the butterfly bush.
I hope you are pleased with it this spring when it grows in and the color of the leaves are awesome!
Happy New Year everyone, I can't wait til we garden again.

Hi Butterfly,
I remember well your helpful post. I rather absent-mindedly restated what I'd said before about my experience, b/c the last poster restated what had been said by you and others about early spring surgery. I didn't add any clarity, but I wasn't going to ignore all the good information you and others shared.

I am going to follow your suggestions. Can't wait to get out there with a saw and pruners.

mt