With a butterfly bush that has been in bloom for a time the spent flower spikes turn brown and spoil the overall effect for the rest of the cycle unless repeatedly removed as soon as they reach this condition. The soiled appearance produced by the dead inflorescences is particularly noticeable with white cultivars, which otherwise have a fresh or pristine aspect. If your planters are not now displaying subjects that require frequent deadheading you may not want to include butterfly bush.

Thanks B. Always looking to avoid deadheading, although it is, of course, a part of my maintenance people's list of many things.

I'm looking in particular at 'Lo and Behold Pink Micro Chip' which has just about got to be one of the clumsiest cultivar names I've run across recently. Plant is, of course, in a pink shade. Then there's some others I'm considering such as a couple from the 'Buzz' series. Will hold your comments in mind as I continue making plans. One aspect that really jumps out in this branch of horticulture-
I have found-is novelty. It seems each and every year I've been able to surprise and delight the public with my many schemes. As such, this will remain on my list of possibilities. We can do at least some deadheading, and with so many of the high-functioning annuals we've tended to work with in recent years, most of those things are completely free of the need for that particular practice. Think the many hybrid petunias now available, whether Surfinia, Wave-types, Sumo, Supertunia....etc....what a different world it has become, since say, the 1980s.

+oM

>We can do at least some deadheading, and with so many of the high-functioning annuals we've tended to work with in recent years, most of those things are completely free of the need for that particular practiceAs suspected.

Lo and Behold would be a series name with Microchip being a selling name rather than a cultivar, the actual cultivar name likely to be one combination word - say something like 'Lobemic', although it could perfectly well be completely different also. It will be the same as with many of the annuals you are using, if you were to call them by their series names you could probably make some of them have multiple word handles too.

In my garden, lo and behold doesn't come into its own really until August timeframe. Maybe in pots they would bloom a bit earlier? It would certainly be a late summer into fall show as the flowers do hold on a long time and they bloom and bloom and bloom. I would say the size of mine in the ground get to be about 3 ft wide by 2 ft tall.

Most helpful, Thyme2. Suggests that companions would need to pick up the slack in the early phase. We can do that. and yes, I too wonder if, coming out of the greenhouse, in perhaps 1 or 2 gal. pots, then into planters, these things might not have a little boost on the season.

Size parameters would be right on.......these big trapezoidal pots measure some 31 inches or so across the top. A little-or even a lot-of spillage over the sides is normal and something we do on purpose. Your caveat of late-blooming notwithstanding, I think this could work.

Which color phase of Lo and Behold you got there, Thyme2?

+oM

Keep in mind that clones within the same marketing series may have no genetic connection and differ therefore in structure and behavior. Bailey Nurseries Endless Summer hydrangea series a prime example. Many people - including garden writers and nursery products salespersons - do not understand the modern commercial naming practices. It is still common to refer mistakenly to Hydrangea macrophylla [The Original] = 'Bailmer' as 'Endless Summer' because it was the first introduction in the Endless Summer series.

Yes B, I do know about series names, and the often-hidden lack of close genetic familial relationships within. Amongst the many bedding plant series I get into, I've oft noted that developers of these lines look to match them up for such attributes as growth rate, ultimate size, etc. after the fact, so to speak. That is, they become a series when they have been so assembled. I know about that.

I may aska question without a full exposition of my knowledge to date-on any given subject-to save typing/reading/interpreting for either myself or dear reader. But yes, that is a fact. My questions still have an end point. If one should answer that they are growing 'Blue Chip', and should I be possibly interested in that one-not saying I am, but I could be-it becomes helpful to read of others' experiences with same.

One thing that has become a hallmark of our (my) ornamental display bed design over the past 25 years or whatever it's been is a restless insistence on the new and different. Must have been right around 1990, for one example, when a grower with whom I was working told me about a new intergeneric begonia type, originally known as 'Nirvana' and which would, it was said, do equally well in sun or shade. Well, we put 150 of these large planters up and down our main drag at that time, featuring the plant now known as 'Dragon Wing' in its various incarnations. But up until that point, the growers who later saw this display had never seen a 'Nirvana' begonia, let alone any begonia used in full sun like that. Now I don't want to talk about that plant, or begonias generally, that's not my point. My point is that we have a history of surprising people with our combinations and with "old" plants used in new ways. That is but one very tiny example. My quest continues along these same lines today.

+oM

+oM

I like your way of thinking. I find it boring to see same plantings every year.
But lately I see more of 'innovative' planting, especially containers.
You probably helped sales of 'Dragon Wing' at the time - when it was relatively new/not so common!

I think growing small shrub as a 'centerpiece' is a great idea. But anything 'uncommon' - I have asparagus in one of my containers, the female plant. Tall, feathery, with red berries & green for long time & comes back in spring...
Hope to see some photos of your containers next year. Rina

This post was edited by rina_ on Tue, Nov 11, 14 at 9:36

Thanks Rina. Isn't there some old saying.....something about variety being the something or other of life! Yeah, I would get seriously bored simply trying to recreate each year from the year before.

I used stattice in some beds one year. It gave an exquisitely airy feel to that planting. I once long ago made use of ornamental peppers, which in and of itself is not so remarkable, but those peppers were HOT!
I can't tell you how many pots of chili and salsa were ruined by those little brightly colored balls of fire! But anyway, yeah, I like to keep things moving and changing.

And yes, you are exactly right about those Dragonwings. Though unknown at the time, they were everywhere a year or two later, by which point I, of course, was on to other things. Speaking of begonias, we used the 'Whopper" red w/bronze leaf last few years as well. Those things are quite impressive too.

I've got another thread going here regarding the beauty berry shrub-Callicarpa-about which I've been toying with the idea of somehow incorporating that thing into display beds somehow or other. Probably won't do this though given the main show is the fruits, and they'd be late, long after most all other stuff had gone to bed for the year. But who knows? The idea could come roaring back! But your main point is well-taken-ornamental horticulture is, for better or for worse, a very trendy pursuit. I guess that for my part, I add to this tendency with my own activities. Meanwhile, fully half of my job relates to the vegetation around this city's stormwater ponds and other practices, which takes things in completely the opposite direction-all native all the time, no cultivars, etc. It's a pretty good mix for a plant geek.

+oM

Callicarpa produces summer flowers also.

+oM

I have been following your callicarpa thread - as you already noticed.
I think you have interesting job, and especially with the mix of natives and also display/ornamental.
It's much easier to do different displays at home - with fewer pots/containers more attention can be given. So many 'showy' plants need lot more attention - as was mentioned with deadheading. But seedheads could be very interesting too. Like milkweed. Cardoon (aka artichoke thistle-edible when cooked) looks great as a centerpiece...I had one, it is pretty large but you have big planters to fill.
And, speaking of spice of life...those ornamental peppers added some, right?

Rina

Tom, I have 'Blue Chip' which I believe was one of the first introductions of a dwarf. I had the very good fortune of being in the Raleigh, NC area during an Open Days and Dr. Dennis Werner (who introduced them) was on the list. Talk about a plant geek's dream! Wow, the stuff he was trialing in his garden. Shrubs and trees galore and overall an amazing and extremely interesting garden. Super nice guy too who was willing to answer all sorts of questions. Thank goodness for these folks who being us new introductions of some old favorites.

I really enjoy 'Blue Chip' for its size.....I have three in a little hedge, but the flowers are not as showy. A bit more stubby and not as intense in color, but still a great shrub. It's neater when I deadhead them, but overall since the flowers are smaller if I don't get around to doing it, they don't look as "spent" as the larger butterfly bushes and still continue to bloom for quite a long time.

{{gwi:283550}}

Tom, curious why you're considering the expense of this particular plant that would be treated as an annual?

If you go with a butterfly bush Buddleia 'Miss Molly' has the most stunning flower color in my opinion. All the blues and purples looked washed out to me. Miss Molly is VIBRANT.

I wouldn't expect the plant to achieve much size within one season rendering it a dwarf for this reason.

Good points, Whaas. I've been eye-balling 'Misss Molly' as well. It's on my list of many things! I get your point-whether dwarfish enough or not for my intended use, one season's growth, especially in a planter, would not yield the plants' full genetic size potential, most likely. And as to color, that is of the essence here. This whole thing is done simply to delight the eyes of the viewers. We've got a vibrant downtown up here in A-town, something a lot of communities can no longer lay claim to, so we're lucky to have a large and diverse "audience" for our program.

And that is really also the answer to your other question-why would we use a perennial plant as an annual. We do it all the time, not just myself, but industry-wide. I actually resist this tendency, my designs usually being composed of true annuals, er...plants which are truly annual in our region! You see, the lines get blurred. But again, the restless seeking out of new looks, new ideas, is where this is coming from. And who knows, we may be able to lift the plants out, heal them into our holding nursery, and plant them out in subsequent years. It's not as though we (Again, I really mean myself) will just keep buying more butterfly bushes and using them this way! If I'm still around GW this time next year, you will see me writing about other ideas. I virtually never repeat myself in any one location. What's more, we're not a retail customer. I think we do pretty well with our limited budget, as do the many folks who comment on our work.

+oM

I thought Tom is considering callicarpa to be grown in his own garden...
That maybe too large for display container anyway, since it will grow 6' easily (it may not in colder zone). Not sure how soon it will bloom either. I bought mine in 2gal pot, not sure how mature it was at that time. But it did bloom first year I planted it. (Warmer zone - 6a).

I have grown other shrubs from cuttings - veigela, deutzia, caryopteris, ninebark... They all flowered following spring (veigela in photo above was grown from softwood cutting, bloomed following spring).
Everyone commented on deutzia - every year. It was covered in white flowers.
Caryopteris blooms later, that is another small shrub that was very attractive. Could be substituted by Russian sage (perovskia) - that would be another great plant for container.

While most of the shrubs may be eventually too large for containers, they may serve well for couple of season. Especially, if one has means of using them somewhere else afterward. Would be shame to dispose off...

And there is so many new varieties, many of them dwarf.

Another question is of flowering time - some bloom only for couple of weeks. But with attractive foliage, they still look great in containers. Great example is ninebark which I also used in containers, especially 'Diablo' with dark foliage (and very nice flower/seed clusters). If kept in smaller container, they didn't grow that large for few seasons.

Rina

This post was edited by rina_ on Wed, Nov 12, 14 at 10:50

Sorry if my recent bombardment of posts are causing confusion. My interest in Buddleia-primarily the dwarfish forms-is indeed for my work, wherein one of my tasks is coming up with ornamental plantings in and around our city's downtown and park areas. The other thread, the one dealing with Callicarpa, is just because I like them, first noticed them when in S. Florida, and the fact I'm headed back down that way in a few weeks.

One thing I've known for a very long time, at least the way I do it, ornamental planting design is not a linear process. Something I was thinking about two years ago may show up in next year's design, and all manner of permutations of that concept.
It is not as though I start at point A-literally the letter A in the alphabet, and then proceed directly to the end of some alphabetized list of locations. No, it's a lot of jumping back and forth, returning to places I've been earlier, then off to a different project. This, IMO, ensures creativity and a fresh mental state to each project. And the best part-I've now got my supervisor trained to understand this! Took some doing but we got there.

The other bottom line-you can't argue with success, and year in and year out, our community has some really outstanding display beds to look at, if I do say so myself (and I do)!

So, anybody mess around with any of the 'Buzz' series of Buddleia? That's another area of inquiry I've been looking at. I will be honest-I've yet to grow one single member of this genus, whether for my own yard or at work, so any and all input is most welcome.

I kind of like the 'Evil Ways' cultivar, that one featuring bright chartreuse foliage. My concern there is that although the foliage and flower color tones are great, I don't know enough about the plant to know whether it would form a nice compact plant, or would it be leggy and ungainly-looking. This is the sort of thing that has always mattered to me. We all know you can photograph a nice flower up close and from that photo, one could mistakenly think the plant actually looks good in the landscape. For me, for example, most roses fail on this count. Sure, that up-close photo of the bloom in the catalog looked great, but the plants are just really not all that, IMO. What I'm after is the whole package, what old-timers used to call a "thrifty plant, one having all of its components held close together, not stretched out or not having scanty blooms, etc.

So.........once again, anyone know anything about the 'Buzz' series of the 'Evil Ways' cultivar?

+oM

When conditions are suitable butterfly bush grows very fast. A lot will depend on how dwarf a particular kind really is. The older var. nanhoensis cultivars seemed really to be more small-parted than small in stature, as though if placed in the same spot that might produce a 20 ft. tall typical seedling these would grow something like 10 ft. tall themselves. Kind of like 'Compactus' burning bush in comparison to the typical species, the "dwarf" still producing a sizable plant but lacking the interest generated by the larger parts (big flower spikes in the one example, big stem wings in the second) of the regular versions.

I'm seeing the same kind of thing in thyme2dig's picture, that is dinky spikes on a what appears to already be a fair amount of foliage. That isn't going to get any smaller in subsequent summers.

I get that, Bb. Our management regime is quite thorough-going. We have a really decent water truck, we use water-soluble fertilizers in a constant-feed program, while also using stuff like Osmocote in the soil pre-plant. Compost is a yearly addition to all beds and containers, as needed. I like to add a wetting agent to the tank mix too, to help counteract crusty mulch layers, tree root competition factors, etc. So it is not unlikely that our Buddleias would be quite vigorous. We're noted for luxuriant growth and development of our plantings, with my goal being to skirt the line between rapid plant development and a too-high nitrogen and phosphate environment, with its accompanying ills of vegetative growth at the expense of flowering and proneness to disease. We also have tap water in this town which is too alkaline for many plants to be happy, and that is, as much as anything, the reason for the tank mix fertilizers we use, all of which are selected to counteract alkalinity in the water. Let's just say it works. All of which is to say, I believe we could start out with a modest, perhaps one-gal. sized plant and still end up with a full display by mid-summer or so. That has certainly been the case over the years. If there's one thing I don't like, it's a big pot with a little bitty plant stuck in the middle of it! Not going to do that.

+oM

One thing that's not a concern for me here is overwintering within these containers. That's just not worth doing IMO. The amount of trouble to get perennial species to overwinter in an above-ground pot, albeit a large pot, would quickly erase any "savings" in holding that particular plant over winter. No, we start over with these things each spring.

Of course we do have full-fledged perennial beds, beds of perennials and annuals, and every permutation in between. And again, that suggests that there may be possible homes for any perennial or shrubby species that would end up in the planters. There is such a thing as false economy, as anyone living in my state should know! We've got a lot of that going around right now.

+oM

Don't think the dwarf buddlejas will give you much punch in your container displays.. I think the blooms are too stumpy for good impact. I think you would get a better bang for your buck from shrub roses that grow in the 2-3 ft range and some of the colorful foliage wiegelias like my monet , my monet sunset, etc

Hm Felisa, that's a pretty damning statement regarding this idea. But of course, all views whether supportive or not, are welcome. So I ask, have you seen this particular idea fail? I will readily admit, I'm not very experienced with Buddleia period. I do see plenty of pics online of these plants used more or less exactly as I am contemplating. Yes, I know, you can't always go by the pictures, so I ask again, what have you seen, good or bad? Or are you just not impressed with the dwarfish cultivars? I have noted the shorter inflorescenses in some of these. Is that your objection?

Whaas exhorted me to look at 'Miss Molly' which while not a truly full-sized version of Buddleia, is considered a larger-growing variety than say, the 'Micro Chip' stuff.

Then too, this would not be the only plant in these containers.

+oM

I grew buzz this year. I still have a few left because I got them in a little later past spring, but I will have to say I heartily recommend it. I have never seen so many blooms on a butterfly bush in a 1 gal pot before, I deadheaded them and took them to the market all summer and sold down from 72 in July to only about 10 now overwintering. It's the really dark purple one and the color is great and very uniform too. I would recommend if you're putting it in container to also use some timed release fertilizer because we were using about 150 ppm 20-20-20 all summer on these. I just looked it up and what I purchased was Buzz midnight from EC growers in Florida.
Now my grower side comes out, for something really spectacular that wouldn't get too tall in one year, but pretty wide, have you considered a small ensete maurelli, say a 1 gallon in the center of each? we put those in down here in Muncie, IN in an office building and they were spectacular. (and one of my favorite plants)

Thanks Sandy. Your post clears up one question I had, that being whether or not the 'Buzz' series could be sourced here in the states, it being a Thompson and Morgan (British) line. Thanks for that, as it is one of the groups I've been studying.

I've worked with big-leaved tropicals in thepast, albeit not banana. The Alocasias, Calocasias, and so on looked good for a while but the canyon-effect winds of our downtown sites shredded the leaves eventually. Is there any reason to think bananas to be tougher in that regard?

+oM

You are right, most bananas don't handle wind well, unless you like that tropical shredded effect, which I happen to like...but the ensete is a little thicker leaved and since it wouldn't get that tall in a single season, it would be more wide than tall. If you start with 18" you'd probably get 3' or so in the first year. Another fun thing, have you considered solanum naranjilla Bed of Nails plant, if you really like things different? link below. These were a big hit at several businesses we did and they handle wind well. I can't find my best picture right now, but here's one we took. they do stop people in their tracks to see what it is. You can't see the thorns real well in this picture though.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:283548}}

Sandy

That plant has huge 'nails'...I mentioned cardoon, and was worried that Tom would say something like: we don't want to have people suing us for endangering publick...jk!

Rina

Miss Molly had an exception bloom time. I cut the blooms and got another round. They stood out from afar which is tough to do.

As expected it died last year though.

I can appreciate what you're doing. I do admire these planting bed/containers. Chicago can have some exceptional arrangements.

Madison and Milwaukee are somewhat weak.

A-Town is probably one of the nicest downtowns in WI as its quaint and vibrant. I'll have to pay attention to the plantings next time I'm in town!

I didn't take the time to take in every detail but if Rose becomes an option I'm a big fan of Coral Drift Rose. Its well behaved and the blooms are vibrant. Get two really nice flushes. The middle age women on my block are always clamoring about them during the growing season.

Thanks again all. Have not yet had time to look at bed-of-nails, but I appreciate the link. Yes, novelty plays large in this biz.

For purposes of having the ability to alternate color schemes within one site, I'd like to have the ability to have, say, magenta or similar color tone in one planter (with accompanying plants), and a blue or purple Buddleia with its accompaniments in every other pot............something like that. Who will speak up for a blue to purple flowering Buddleia with the vibrancy of either the 'Buzz' series or the 'Miss Molly' cultivar? 'Ellen's Blue'? 'Blue Micro Chip'? Any others?

For whatever reasons, I'm a horticulturist for whom roses do nothing for me. It's the classic plant where, lens focused in tight against a blosom, the catalog pic looks great, but the actual plant out in the landscape-well that's another story: The rabbits finished off what winter didn't kill, then a late freeze finishes off the rest. I guess for me, they're just not all that. I need lots of color, not one or two exquisitely detailed rose blossom here, another one over there. Maybe I'm just a poor rosarian, but 'Knockout' makes me want to run in the other direction, I'm so sick of that look. May as well throw in the Russian sage and the feather reed grass and call it a day! No, I'm not a fan of any of those things.

There is something about plants with inflorescences like Buddleia, that exact flowering habit, which lends itself well to my "frozen explosions" which are how I like to think of the designs we work up. Perfect for that!

+oM

Hehe, re-reading this thread reminded me, I had to remove some really nice Castor Bean plants, simply because I opened my big mouth to a supervisor, telling him about the toxicity of all plant parts. Should have kept my mouth shut! Then, in the same area, I had Brugmansia. I called it our "poison garden"! You know, you've got your butterfly garden, maybe a fragrance garden, and over here the poison garden. Bring the kids!

Another really cool result we had a few years ago was with variegated tapioca as the big centerpiec plants in these things. They really did fantastic. Then last year, wanting to do similar work again, my grower failed. It seems likely the plugs were damaged enroute to here from Florida in that winter's bitter cold. They grew a little itty bit, but never broke out of whatever was holding them back. Substitutes had to happen. But they are another interesting option for such endeavors.

Thanks all for bearing with me. As I said somewhere earlier, this is not a linear process. I've probably designed five or six other sites while still compiling info on the Buddleias.

+oMK