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valerie_ru

Easy-to-make charcoal for soil.

valerie_ru
15 years ago

Collect firewood and make a camp-fire. After the flame is over but char is still smolder and easily break down suppress it with water. Now you have wet charcoal. It is not appropriate for barbecue but good for soil.

Comments (59)

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Valerie Ru said"

    "Dont worry : you will have your little plot of chernozem!"

    Hi Valerie.

    I have my own little plot of cherozem (I had to look up the word too), and it is a lot bigger than 2x1 meters. I am finding the biochar soil is spreading each year on its own. At this rate I may have the entire property around the house looking like one big Terra Preta plot. A very good thing to say the least...

    Blutranes

  • 11otis
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    valerie ru: "Dont worry : you will have your little plot of chernozem! Approximatly : 2 x 1 meters... "
    If I get cremated, I might not even have my 2 x 1 meter plot. That is if I understand your meaning correctly.

    blutranes: Thank you for the idea. My Weber is a gas one but I do have an old BBQ sitting at the back of the house wondering how to get rid of it. I can try make my charcoal come spring using that.
    As I mentioned on the other charcoal thread, I have 5 big branches broken off a tree in front of the house. Should I let them dry somewhat or can I burn them whenever I want (cut to managable size of course). Sorry, I haven't burnt anything in the backyard before other than food while BBQ-ing. I'll have the garden hose ready, that's for sure.

    Otis.

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blutranes,
    I always heard a wooman in you. I dont know how it turned out that you are a wooman, but my sincere respect to you! My mother is also a wooman ( very harmfull of coase:) and in my 45 years old I just begin to understand that fact that I dont understand - who is a woomen??? :-)
    "I may have the entire property around the house looking like one big Terra Preta plot."
    You are really a wooman!

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Woman? No Valeria, I am a real live man, made in America. Looks like you still don't understand (HA!). But don't worry, there are a lot of things about women we are not meant to understand. And for the good IMO, for what would we do if we did crack the code?

    Always a pleasure to read your posts. We have been at this biochar for a few years now, looks like we picked a "winner" to get behind. Hang around Valeria, been too long since you posted on that wonderful thread that started all this about biochar...

    Blutranes

  • val_s
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blutranes -

    I thought at first that was a typo too but I took a shot at a search and perhaps Valerie meant:

    wooman - 1. A guy who is able to seek the attention and love of women.

    Just a thought. :-)

    Val

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Damn! Well, we all are going to have a good laugh about that one. I was ready to repost and show the definition of "cherozem", I thought there was a different one than the one I saw in Webster. Then I looked again, reread the post, and got even more confused (HA!). Thought I better say something before "dogma dude" comes along as blames the whole thing on my lack of a soil test or too much water on my compost.

    Anyway, that kind of a "wooman" I truly do my best to be, but my mother surely doesn't (HA! again). ME thinks I better use the dictionary very carefully when conversing with my "Russian" friend. Thanks Val, you are getting to be someone handy to have around...

    Blutranes

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ye-e-ah... I really was a "wooman" yestaday. And I was off track there.
    BTW I am a man, I think.
    With big love to you, people...man and women.

  • val_s
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Valerie -

    So you are a male, right? I got thrown off by your name. Here in the states, Valerie is more commonly a female name, although I did go to high school with a guy named Val.

    I made a mistake in calling you a lucky gal. It should have read lucky GUY. So what do you grow in your chernozem soil? It looks like you could grow anything in such black rich earth.

    Val

    PS - Blutranes - you can stop flirting now LOL *just kidding*

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "And for the good IMO, for what would we do if we did crack the code?"
    It was the utmost misstake of my life! When I tried to crack them gently they cracked me so roughly that I even don't understand if I a man or a woman? I decided to myself that I am a "wooman".

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I added a lot of rubbish here. It caused LOL, so could it be excusable?

    "So what do you grow in your chernozem soil? It looks like you could grow anything in such black rich earth."

    Really I can grow and grow almost anything: potatoes, cabbages, tomatoes and so on. No chemical fert at all and sometimes compost from cow/horse manure. I also like to use green manure: rye, oats/veth, pea. It does help to cure phytophtora on potatoes and increase fertility of soil.

    As for charcoal, I have understood "what is it" after making my own. Looking at the burning charcoal and at the burning ashes I saw that they both are the same thing IMO. The water and mainly the steam in fire make it more active (activated charcoal) IMO. Its not scientific observation of cause.

  • gamekeeper
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have the impression that ash is not the answer,would it be of any use to put my fireplce ashes to the compost pile in the yard?

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Valeria Ru said:

    "Well, I added a lot of rubbish here. It caused LOL, so could it be excusable?"

    Yes indeed Valeria, you and I really did cause a "LOL", this is a very good thing. No need for anything to be excused, keep up the good work.

    Otis11 asked:

    "Should I let them dry somewhat or can I burn them whenever I want (cut to managable size of course).

    IMO yes you should let them dry out. Much of the smoke generated making charcoal is due to the wood being moist. And too, the length of time it takes to make the charcoal will be shorter due to seasoned wood being used. Remember, it is the adsorbing characteristic that is important as it relates to the charcoal. This is why soaking the coals in some sort of solution is important; better to choose what is adsorbed rather than what is in the air IMO.

    Gamekeeper asked:

    "I have the impression that ash is not the answer,would it be of any use to put my fireplace ashes to the compost pile in the yard?"

    Using them sparingly in the garden is ok Gamekeeper IMO. As it relates to the compost pile, I have never added them, yet. If I continue to research and find that they can be of benefit I may start the practice; as of now I have little use for the ashes, I generate as little as possible...

    Blutranes

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gather around children; please sit in a circle. Mr. Blutranes is here to show you one of the techniques he uses to make charcoal. Mr. Blutranes are you ready to present?

    Yes. First of all kids, try to always use wood from trees that have been blown down my weather, or trees that have died from other causes rather than to just cut down a tree. Trees are important to the environment, we need to be responsible when we harvest wood, and there is plenty of wood to be gathered without felling healthy trees.

    I create a bed of coals in the fireplace using the wood mentioned above.

    {{gwi:257855}}

    Once the bed is smoldering, I use fireproof gloves, a small coal shovel, and metal bucket to hold the coal for transfer outside.

    {{gwi:257856}}

    The bucket is filled with a solution of alfalfa meal, fish emulsion, seaweed, and Epson salts blended together in a 55-gallon drum. Once the coals have had time to cool, the water is drained into a bucket, and then poured back into the 55-gallon drum.

    {{gwi:257857}}

    The coals are then stored in a vessel (in this case a box made by Mr. Ed until needed to add to compost.

    {{gwi:257858}}

    The coals are ground into smaller pieces then mixed with compost. The compost is allowed to cure/mature until needed for the garden. Are there any questions from anyone?

    {{gwi:257859}}

    Digdirt (Dave) wants to know what is that on the lid of the box, is it important?

    Well, rumor has it that upon completion of making the box Mr. Ed foolishly pasted some pictures on the lid of the box from a magazine full of girl pictures. It was a dark day indeed when Mrs. Ed opened that box. Folks say for ¼ mile around people could hear Mr. Ed yelp as he frantically ripped the pictures off the lid. Some neighbors say Mrs. Ed stood over Mr. Ed using a yard broom in her hands (gently tapping Mr. Ed about his head and shoulders) to make sure Mr. Ed didnt miss any important pictures. When asked about the incident Mrs. Ed will only softly smile and say; "Every time I use that yard broom Edward goes back in the house". Let me also say that Mr. Ed for some reason refuses to watch the game of Tennis or Ping Pong in person or on television (something about the sound). Mr. Ed, to this day is affectionately known to his friends as "knuckle-head".

    Thank you for your attention and time. I trust this will motivate some to make charcoal for their garden

    Blutranes

  • paulns
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our sandy soil needs the (purported) effects of charcoal badly. I'm not convinced this practice doesn't lead to pollution from incomplete combustion of wood, and from machinery grinding the charcoal...And I hope this thread doesn't lead to a whole bunch of people generating pollution through experiments gone wrong.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree Paulns. However, in my technique I use a old "meat/sausage" grinder to grind up the coal as has been stated in another thread. For those who do not use/have a fireplace I have been encouraging members to seek simple solutions to generating charcoal. Those who make campfires for children to roast marshmellows or other activities could use the coals in the garden as an example.

    As you well know, research continues to understand the dynamics of charcoal amendments, the creation of "bio-diesel" fuels, and using the soil as a carbon sink to combat pollution. Those who are fortunate enough to have alternative resources to heat their homes instead of using natural gas, oil, or electricity can as well find a use for the materials that have been viewed as "waste" in the past. It is in this spirit I have posted my comments...

    Blutranes

  • paulns
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And I appreciate that. I'm concerned because we're guilty of a fair bit of pollution from burning wood already - our wood stove is EPA approved but still makes quite a few clinkers. I've been scattering these and ashes on the ground around the garden, around shrubs, blueberries, on the lawn, and on the snow in winter etc. But what I'll try from now on is to cool them, collect them in the metal trash can, soak them like you say and put them in a section of the garden in summer.

    -20C today, windchill -31C. I can hardly wait.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    -20C today, windchill -31C. I can hardly wait.

    Paulns, you don't even want to know. 12°C and cloudy, no wind chill. If the sun was out it would be much warmer. Tuesday and Wednesday +23°C and partly cloudy. I have been outside screening compost in a light jacket most of the day.

    Might I suggest putting the clinkers in the compost pile? I started doing that after reading "The Quick Return Compost Method". You linked to a page from the book in a earlier post about "yarrow". I find comfort in knowing I only have to use the fireplace x4 days a week most of the winter if that much. However, that doesn't give me an excuse to not do those things that can/will make my carbon footprint smaller.

    Recent comments by members concerning the amount of calcium in ash has me seriously researching the use of ash. My goal is to find a way to limit or slow the leaching problem to keep the nutrient available to the plant longer. If this knowledge is revealed just that much more value will be added to the use of the fireplace IMO.

    Since we both have been present, upfront, and active regarding the topic of "Terra Preta" on our forum, our commitment to sharing freely of learned experience from the beginning is evident these few years. Tis a pleasure to share a word or two from time to time. Best wishes to you, the family, and the chickens too...

    Blutranes

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Blutranes,
    Thank you very much for the story and pictures.
    I knew that you knew long befor anyone on this forum what is charcoal.
    Because you are a kind of person "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", I think.
    Those birches around your house look like in Russia and I think you know russian culture very well because you know who is Eisenstein, as I remember.
    And at the same time I found that american culture is very similar to russian by spirit, but our culture is elder nevertheless. Its not better or worse, but you, americans, running around the idea of microbes like a children, for example. We also were running like a children but 100-150 years ago. I have a practical book published in 1850 in Russia for landowners where 20-30 microbes in soil are merely enumerated by names. Here in Russia most people think that Russia is a motherland of the soil science. You may refer to the name of Dokuchaev.
    When I dived into this forum deeper I had a strange thought a little later Chekhov will appear here. And voila Blutranes-Chekhov!
    Its nice to see people here rasing over the soil but feeling deep connection with it.
    Some people here are excellent in this old but always new and may be endless discovery.

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "First of all kids, try to always use wood from trees that have been blown down by weather, or trees that have died from other causes rather than to just cut down a tree. Trees are important to the environment, we need to be responsible when we harvest wood, and there is plenty of wood to be gathered without felling healthy trees."

    Its an important remark. Branches of the trees that have been blown down by weather are very dry. They burn on fire very well and quickly turn into ashes. And ashes are in a glow during long time producing many heat. It says about that there are a lot of coal in those ashes. Its a coal burning. Charcoal from the birches is best in soaking up substances. Monks from russian monasteries experimented with different kind of wood making charcoal for the purification of vodka and stopped on birch. Their vodka was best in the world and they kept the recipe very long time since 15 century. Secret was in the birch.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Valerie Ru said:

    "And at the same time I found that American culture is very similar to Russian by spirit, but our culture is elder nevertheless. Its not better or worse, but you, Americans, running around the idea of microbes like a children, for example. We also were running like a children but 100-150 years ago."

    I recall when Dchall first posted about Terra Preta, your reaction to all the excitement that started to manifest in the thread. Your chuckles revealed that you already knew the new "toy" that was discovered was a very old toy in your country. We here have a habit of disregarding old wisdom for new technology. This too is not good or bad; it just wastes a lot of time. And too, our focus on time instead of results has cost more than can be recounted. Eventually it all works out in the end, but a lot of argument could have been saved for a more worthy topic IMO. I find no pride in "arguing with wisdom"; a better man I am when I listen and learn. It matters not who gets the credit for saying words that makes all who listen of a better quality.

    The work of N.A. Krasil'nikov from your home played a key role in exciting my curiosity about soil biology in his work written in 1958. In the review written by Steve Solomon on his Ag library website he said:

    "~So Krasil'nikov focused on the biological process, and he found ways to improve plant growth by crop rotation and the production of special composts and microbial ferments of the sort that could be produced by the farmer in an old barrel. All these "primitive" solutions are based on a very high-level understanding of the microbial process in soil and the interactions between soil microbes with each other, of how crop species interact with each other via long-lasting soil residues (root exudates), and how plants and microbes interact with each other."

    The statement above, what we are now calling "old school knowledge" is what I needed to read at the time. Those who frown at knowledge from an earlier point in time may be cheating themselves; they may never consider "what if this old knowledge was ahead of its time"? If that is the case, then what was said may fit perfectly with our time. What is known today as "esoteric thinking" may indeed be profound to the point of brilliance? In reality, if past knowledge combined with present knowledge doesnt make sense something is wrong, and somebody is about to become very smart. True power is not measured in how much one has, but how little power one has to use to achieve a goal. Soil technology and the tools we have today are of a value we have yet to understand IMO; we just received this new toy, how can we claim absolutely to know how to best use it? Combined with the knowledge of the past, possessing a mind open enough to take it all in, and then demonstrating the motivation to go outside and prove it are but a few of the qualities citizens of this new world are now called on to express.

    We in the west heal our people with medicine; in the east, you guys heal your people with food. The day is coming when cyber-space will be the new home of all, sharing the best the world has to offer. Compost, charcoal, bio-dynamics, square foot gardening, EM, and all the other technologies will be the keys to long life, health, and prosperity.

    I thank you Valerie Ru for all your kind words and time. I too must compliment you for your ability to say just enough, for those paying attention, to stop and think about what you have said. This is truly a gift I am grateful to receive from you

    Blutranes

  • paulns
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I have been outside screening compost in a light jacket most of the day" - just think, Blutranes, our -20C days would give you an excuse to stay indoors working your way through the Journey to Forever library instead of out in that pesky garden.

    Seriously though I came to this forum for basic information but have stayed over the years for the mad science. People like you and Valerie and others here are one step ahead of the agricultural 'experts' imo, because you've followed up your book learning with hundreds of hours of hands-on work. And because the imagination that drives the work is unfettered.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Paulns said:

    "our -20C days would give you an excuse to stay indoors working your way through the Journey to Forever library instead of out in that pesky garden."

    Gee Paulns, when I got sick a few years back I did read through their library (at least what I found interesting). That is one of the sources I use to debate getting a soil test based on research Lady Eve Balfour presented back in 1977. Not that it did any good, the same argument continues to this day against her findings. Now, the Ag library offered by Steve Solomon is a different story; I have been reading from that site since I found it (Click link below).

    I really feel honored to be included among the "mad science" wacko group, makes one want to really get out there and grow a monster watermelon. With all the information that one can stumble upon in the search for something else (the "bug juice" formula for instance), between scientists, professionals, and regular folk there is no reason not to have an exciting adventure along the road to compost bliss. My main goal is to get all the nutrition back into our food chain so we can all live to the best of our ability. Yes, there are those who cringe at the thought of adding "sea salt finds" to their soil, or have a hissy fit about "humus", or pretend they have never seen the words "humic or fulvic acid", but as long as we stick to our guns and say what we see it will all work out.

    If you have never been to Steves site go over and take a look, there is some very good reading to say the least. Now, where is that sunscreen lotion

    Blutranes

  • 11otis
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Blutranes,

    thanks for your posting of Sun, Jan 25, 09 at 10:40.

    "The bucket is filled with a solution of alfalfa meal, fish emulsion, seaweed, and Epson salts blended together in a 55-gallon drum." Could you give me a suggestion on the % of the ingredients?
    With fish emulsion, do you mean the liquid fish fertilizer?
    Thanks again.

    Otis

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Otis11 asks:

    "Could you give me a suggestion on the % of the ingredients? With fish emulsion, do you mean the liquid fish fertilizer?

    Sure Otis11, not a problem at all. The formula comes from the Rose Forum and a site they refer to (see link below). I have found that the tea works not only on roses, but other plants as well. I always warn about putting it on grass, one will have a new hobby of cutting grass if the tea is sprayed on grass to liberally.

    As to fish fertilizer, yes I am speaking of liquid fish fertilizer. Any brand will work; let your nose be your guide. Other ingredients can be added to the tea (sea weed, molasses, calcium, ect.); please keep in mind a little goes a long way when using organic teas (a little applied more often is better than a lot applied once).

    I got a fresh load of petrified wood today; you can smell Cherry Oak all the way to the barn. We may all rue the day my daughter gave me this "Blackberry" as a gift.
    {{gwi:257861}}

    Anyway, the heat is on around here

    Blutranes

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blutranes,

    You live in a wonderful place. My hands already have been pulled to the axe. :)

    I want to say a couple words in the justification of "mad science".
    First, what is a "science" in general? It is considerably "dividing of the system into parts and connecting them into a whole system again". This is a way how any system may be understood and may be manageable. It is not bad idea if the system is simple. But if system is more and more complex science is making "hands up" in front of this system. Those scientists who dont, they cheat themselves or others.
    Those from "mad science" side, they dont divide the system on the parts to understand it. They are looking on systems behaviour as a whole and trying to figure out something. Actually they observe and learn.

    One example. There was one remarkable agronomist in Russia Ovsinsky. That time seeds of wheat were sown uniformly all over the field. He began to sow other way in rows: 15 inches in row and 15 inches empty space, and so on. The overall density of seeds planting was the same as on the uniformly sown fields, though the density of seeds inside the row was double. By this way of sowing Ovsinsky doubled and even trippled the yields. Few years ago scientests checked Ovsinsky way of planting and obtained increased yields also. They are equiped with all modern "science" but thay dont understand "why?".
    You may ask where Ovsinsky had got the idea?
    He got the idea in China and chinees could get the idea only from Nature observation.

  • takadi
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That is awesome blutranes, I always knew you had the charcoal sage inside of you. You were just being modest :)

    I didn't read what you did with the tea though, did you innoculate the charcoal with it?

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice library at Cornell! And easy watch pages.
    http://chla.library.cornell.edu/

    Selman A. Waksmans book "Principles of soil microbiology" (1927) is interesting reading. The author came to USA from Russia really. We call him Weissman. And in Israel they call him Weitsman.

    http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=chla;cc=chla;q1=Waksman;idno=3055511;node=3055511%3A6;view=toc;frm=frameset

    Here is a first man (Sergey Winogradsky) who isolated first non-simbiotic nitrogen-fixing bacteria Clostridium pastorianum:
    http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla&cc=chla&idno=3055511&q1=Waksman&node=3055511%3A6&frm=frameset&view=image&seq=90

    There are wonderfull Chapters in a book about nitrogen fixation.
    I think that adding molasses to charcoal will make him "nitrogen fixing charcoal".
    Bluetranes here on a right way.

  • brendasue
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Did I miss it?

    What is the purpose and benefit of adding charcoal to the garden?

    thanks
    Brendasue

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think adding charcoal to the soil has 2 main reasons:

    1. Water (H2O) fixation from the air by the phisical process of vapour condensation
    2. Nitrogen (N2) fixation from the air by nitrogen-fixing bacterias

    Charcoal has large surface area. S/V ratio is high in charcoal because of its porosity. High S/V value is good both for item 1 and 2. The more surface the more water and nitrogen. Item 2 needs item 1 and need carbohidrates (or molasses) as energy source for nitrogen-fixing bacterias also.

    Soil has almost everything for plants besides H2O and N which are in the atmosphere. Charcoal gives an area where they can be conjuncted together by phisical process 1 and microbiological process 2.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Takadi asked:

    "I didn't read what you did with the tea though, did you inoculate the charcoal with it?"

    Yes, I soaked the hot coals in the Alfalfa tea before grinding it to add to compost. The rest is stored for later use.

    Brendasue asked:

    "Did I miss it?"

    Ummm, I guess you did Brendasue; the topic has been covered in a lot of different threads on the forum. Allow me to add a little to what Valerie said.

    In learning to compost we are told to have a mixture of carbon and nitrogen sources, combine them in a 3:1 ratio with the proper amount of moisture, turn every now and then, and then wait until the pile decomposes enough to be used in the garden once cooled. Well, for some here we decided to add charcoal to the compost pile, others added charcoal just to the soil. The results of this action are ongoing on the forum; I think this is where you walked into the conversation. You can Google "Terra Preta" for a more complete explanation.

    Upon thinking about adding charcoal to compost my thoughts are going in this direction:
    Since charcoal is a carbon source adding to the compost pile motivates the microbes to try to decompose the charcoal as well. This action causes enzymes, acids, oils, and other digestive ingredients to be created to compost the charcoal. Thus, instead of the normal amount of compost "juices" being made, an over abundance of "juices" result. This causes the compost to be of a greater strength that we normally expect. And too, these "juices" are what plants use in their growing process; thus the plants grow at a more impressive rate. Add to this the fact that charcoal is very hard and can last in the soil for a very long period of time, the soil microbes continue to decompose the charcoal adding to the fertility of the soil. Of course humus is the result of the composting process, and under the right conditions can last in the soil for thousands of years, the addition of charcoal only adds to the number of years the microbes can work on the charcoal.

    The science of all this is ongoing to this day, thus a through understanding of the entire process is limited. Even though the use of charcoal dates back thousands of years, the technology of "biochar" is on the cutting edge right now. Focus on the marriage of "past knowledge" with modern technology is a valid point IMO. An example of this can be found clicking the link below.

    Allow me to say I have nothing to do with the site referenced, I just find it a good source to use at this time. There is no need to buy anything from the site; for what they offer can be found in every compost pile we build. I would even dare to say our compost provides an end product that is superior to that offered because ours is fresh and we can choose what goes into our compost piles. The information provided is of more importance than the products that are being pushed.

    Please keep this in mind if you choose to visit the site.

    Putting all the pieces together as it relates to compost keeps one on their toes. We never know when something else can be added to the process. While our old way of doing things does work, finding ways to "enhance" the modality keeps me smiling...

    Blutranes

  • paulns
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's an article about biochar from Mother Earth News, written in popular style(easy to understand, for people like me). I wonder is there anything in it Valerie or Blutranes would disagree with?

    Thanks for the link to that library Blutranes. Too bad our cold snap is over!
    Kidding - we have a few months left to go of good reading weather.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok Paulns, let us see how much trouble I can get myself into today.

    "Whats biochar? Basically, its organic matter that is burned slowly, with a restricted flow of oxygen, and then the fire is stopped when the material reaches the charcoal stage."

    But later in the article the author states:

    "Biochars soil building talents may change the way you clean your woodstove. In addition to gathering ashes (and keeping them in a dry metal can until youre ready to use them as a phosphorus-rich soil amendment, applied in light dustings), make a habit of gathering the charred remains of logs."

    Those two comments are two different ways charcoal is made; one slow heat with little oxygen, the other normal heat generated from a stove/fireplace/campfire. Both coals will have pores and long lasting characteristics as well as carbon. Soil microbes are going to decompose both is my understanding. I am using both and can tell of no discernable difference; as I have said before, I am not sold on the idea that primitive people were all that concerned with temperature and oxygen rates.

    "~Microbiologists have discovered bacteria in terra preta soils that are similar to strains that are active in hot compost piles. Overall populations of fungi and bacteria are high in terra preta soils, too, but the presence of abundant carbon makes the microorganisms live and reproduce at a slowed pace. The result is a reduction in the turnover rate of organic matter in the soil, so composts and other soil-enriching forms of organic matter last longer."

    My understanding is that the soil will be more fungi dominated due to the wood component. From the web site I linked above:

    "Fungi Food
    The foods required to encourage fungal proliferation include:
    Complex carbohydrates rather than the simple sugars, like molasses and sucrose, which are preferred by bacteria. Liquid kelp or kelp meal are ideal sources of complex sugars.
    Humic acid is a powerful fungal promotant and food source.
    Fibrous cover crops
    Fibrous compost is both a food source and a home base for fungi."

    As well:

    "Fungi-dominated compost was added to Pot 3, and the same procedure followed. Testing of this pot showed 100% calcium retention. Microscopic magnification revealed every little fungus with his hyphae wrapped around a calcium ion, holding on for grim death. Calcium was that important to these microbes, they were not prepared to forfeit a single ion."

    And too, I am seeing the rate of compost leading to humus faster due to charcoal. My piles are maturing much faster since I started adding charcoal. I agree the compost is lasting longer with less being needed each season. Add to that, my straw mulch is lasting much longer. In some beds the straw has been on the beds for 2 (two) years and counting.

    "In addition to gathering ashes (and keeping them in a dry metal can until youre ready to use them as a phosphorus-rich soil amendment, applied in light dustings), make a habit of gathering the charred remains of logs."

    My understanding is that Potassium and calcium are created from ash (I feel like I am nitpicking).

    "Plain charred weeds, wood or cow pies are better materials for using this promising soil-building technique based on ancient gardening wisdom."

    I pass on the cow pies (all manures); I tried that, the smell is still stuck in my nose. IMO, better to compost manure unless you like the smell of cooking manure.

    "Unrestrained open burning releases 95 percent or more of the carbon in the wood, weeds or whatever else that goes up in smoke."

    The weight of slow burn is lighter, but both create the "wind chimes" sound when knocked together. My thinking says more carbon is saved with a normal burn based on weight (I could be wrong, but so could the author). And too, I see some ash attached to the fast burn, thus some of the nutrients in the ash are on the charcoal.

    "Much remains to be known about how biochar systems should tick, but some may be as simple as on-farm set ups that transform manure and other wastes into nuggets of black carbon that help fertilizer go farther while holding carbon in the soil."

    This is the bottom line, we really dont know which is better; although we do know adding it to soil that is of an organic nature is a win-win situation. Stating that adding to un-amended soil is a waste of time is questionable to be kind; that has yet to be proven IMO. Biochar combined with synthetic fertilizers is showing promise from what I am reading; adding anything organic to the soil has to have benefit to some extent, let alone the fact that the charcoal is going to hold synthetics as well. If that is true, this means less synthetic will be required; using less of anything is better IMO. All the rest of the article I agree with from my experience; it is a good read

    Blutranes

  • pennymca
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So, if I can find a bag of "lump hardwood charcoal", I can smash it a bit and add it into my soil or compost pile (or stinky tea concoction) and get the same results as if I burned my own wood?

    Just saw a review for, of all things, Martha Steward Lump Charwood which said "pieces were so small that they would fall throught the grate". Horrible reviews from the bbq crowd but possibly "a good thing" for the gardening folks?

    Not sure if they still make it but I'm heading to Kmart today to check it out.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I kind of have to chuckle about this thread. I was reading a book by Ovsinsky recommended by Vuh-LARRY (Valerie_RU). I searched the net for Ovsinsky and circled back to this thread. Biochar is not one of my interests because I think of it as a "technology" that has yet to mature enough that it is usable. I'm just waiting for y'all to find the answers.

    Valerie loves to throw it in our face that the Russian scientists have often been ahead of Western scientists on soil science. What he may not realize, but he probably does, is that while his country was under the influence of the USSR, the flow of science was only in one direction. We know virtually nothing about the science that happened in the Soviet bloc prior and during the Soviet "occupation." Even since then very little has been translated from Russian into Western languages. To make this appear worse, Valerie is a reader and student of gardening and farming. He puts most of us to shame in that regard.

  • brass_tacks
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blutranes,
    There is something Im not understanding about your process of making charcoal in your post, the post with your pictures the pics. of your buckets of charcoal.

    You wrote, "Once the coals have had time to cool, the water is drained into a bucket, and then poured back into the 55 gallon drum" What dont I get Does it matter if the coals are cooled fast or slow? Also, what about the 55 gallon drum? What would be in the drum when this process begins?

    Thank you.
    Brass

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Brass Tacks asks:

    "Does it matter if the coals are cooled fast or slow? Also, what about the 55-gallon drum? What would be in the drum when this process begins?"

    Yes, it does matter if the coals are cooled quickly; if not, the coals will continue to burn until ash is the result. Thus one wants to cool the coals as quickly as possible, that is the reason the alfalfa tea solution is used to soak the coals after the coals are taken out of the fireplace. Once cooled, the coals are transferred to the buckets for holding until enough are ready to fill up the 55-gallon drums (or whatever else is available to hold the coals). The reason I use the 55-gallon drums is because of fire ants invading anything left on the ground. Were it not for fire ants, I would store the coals or allow my compost to mature on the ground. I am sure you can understand the logic in this regard (curses to fire ants). The drums usually hold maturing compost (my garden plots continue to grow, too).

    Also, because I am using dried wood, the fire produces coals rather quickly, that is why there are so many 5-gallon buckets amassed; all those buckets were filled in about two days of wood burning (it has been a rather cold winter, to me). IMO, each of us should use common sense throughout the gardening process; a lot of what we do cant be documented by science due to "real world" circumstances. Being a "wacko", schooled in the art of recycle, and putting a premium on "doing no harm (or as little as possible) makes compost making and the use of charcoal fun and exciting (not to mention the end results)

    Blutranes

  • brass_tacks
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blutranes,
    Thanks so much. Everything is very clear now. We have fire ants too and know what you mean.
    Brass

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    David Hall is right about "throwing". LOL. He see many things.I appreciate his opinion very much. Though he is not right that Russia was under the influence of the USSR. Its rather USSR was under the influence of Russia. LOL. USSR was not a sugar pie but it is our history both positive and negative and what was it was. Science in the USSR was the same as God in Russia.
    As for the flow of science. I dont know how many scientists came to USA from Russia and USSR and became americans but the flow was not too slow. May be you know who is Igor Sikorsky, Zvorykin (TV), Pitirim Sorokin (Harward prof. sociology,John Kennedy teacher), Leontiev(economist), Waksman ("a father of soil microbiology" in USA) and so-so-so so on. So, in this or other form scientists had contacts and even the secret of atomic bomb was stolen. LOL.
    Russian Timofeev-Ressovsky was director of the Genetics Institute in nazi Germany, Peter Kapitsa was a student and loved pupil of Reserford in Great Britan.
    But I agree that the flow of scientific literature (books, which transfer rather spirit, view point, than knowledge) was slow. Its a pitty especially in relation to the soil because there is nothing more peaceful than the soil.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Valeria RU,

    I have been reading over and over your recommendation about Ivan Ovsinsky; let me just say, we both sound a lot alike IMO.

    Anyway Ivan Ovsinsky said:

    "The plants are incredibly sensitive to tortures, which a human subjects those to, and they revenge themselves upon him for tortures -with fruits and flowers."

    If I may ask a few questions about "torture", what kind of torture? Is he speaking of holding back water and nutrients, or is he saying not to plant in fertile soil? He also speaks of plants having "emotions" and we should use these emotions to better get a harvest from plants; how are these "emotions" used?

    Then there is the matter of "translation", the page I am getting my information is not translating Chapter XI (Sowing), and how is he sowing his seeds? Am I to understand this is part of the "torture"? And tilling (digging) the soil, did he dig at all, or did he just plant in soil the way he found it? If I may ask, how are you using his technique in your gardening techniques? (see Link Below)

    Ok, I will stop for now, but I am surly to have more questions, but first I like to read material at least three (3) times before I get deep into the subject. I do understand Ovsinsky did use 10% coal (charcoal?) in his planting. I know I said no more questions, but what kind of charcoal? I must say I really like Ovsinsky and his view of nature; the reading is a little hard on the eyes, but I still like what I read. Thanks in advance for your time if you do get a chance to answer my questions, it is much appreciated�

    Blutranes

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pennymca asked:

    "So, if I can find a bag of "lump hardwood charcoal", I can smash it a bit and add it into my soil or compost pile (or stinky tea concoction) and get the same results as if I burned my own wood?

    Dear Pennym. I am so sorry I didnt see your question before now. I can only apologize for not responding and trust your forgiveness will be shared with this humble member. Of course you can use "lump hardwood charcoal", that should not be a problem at all. Those members who are not able to make their own have been using store brought will some complaint about cost.

    Allow me to comment OT about your "BIM" post; that was a very good find. I have been practicing the use of BIM, however I have been calling it "Bug Juice" for a number of years. This technique uses items found in the kitchen, is easy to make, and comes with great results when used. I do plan on using your links as well; this time who knows what the "mad scientists" will concoct at the end of this one? Whatever it is, I will hold you particularly responsible. Keep up the good hunting.(See Link Below)

    Again, I apologize for missing your post; we will be more diligent in the future

    Blutranes

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blutranes,
    I am glad to answer on your questions.
    First of all, Ovsinsky did not use charcoal, he used compost and emphasized the role of humus but is other theme. So Ovsinsky is out of topic. Its better to make new thread of Ovsinsky, but let it be left here for a while.
    I understand, its difficult to read computer translations and even more - a book was published in 1900 and some words are outdated. Ill try to clarify the text and answer any questions.

    Torture.
    Ovsinsky didnt like to torture plants. LOL.
    He begins the book with the reasoning and examples of that though the plants dont think, they react very reasonably in many complex situations of their life. It sometimes even looks that they have "emotions". There are examples in the book and I shall not repeat them here.
    There are 2 main reasons in their "motivation": 1. To survive 2. To reproduce.
    These 2 main reasons are basic "laws of nature" of any alive being including us.

    Ovsinsky noted that plants do not try to reproduce themselves (by flowers, seeds, fruits etc.) if they live in good conditions. They try to thrive themselves instead. (The same is often true about a man. During the wars (bad conditions) the birth rate is often higher and frequency of baby-boys is higher than baby-girls.) When plants live in too good conditions they may not produce seeds and fruits at all. This is the often situation in growing tomatoes. But if plants feel that they may die they began to produce fruits to pass on the baton of life to next generations. So, Ovsinsky writes that good nutrition and conditions are not uniqe anxiety of the gardener if he wants obtain fruits from plants. And he must to bring up and force plants to give seeds/fruits. How to make it?
    There are many ways and Ovsinsky write about them. Think about to stop watering for a while of tomatoes or strawberrie that feel themselves so good that give no fruits.
    There are many oportunities in the way of planting.
    1. Planting plants densely so they bother each other. It forces them to "struggle for life" and competition.
    2. At the same time plants have to have enough free soil space near them so they "feel" that seeds will fell on beneficial soil.
    Think about this way of planting trees:
    {{gwi:257863}}

    So this is a basis of Ovsinskys way of planting cereals in rows: 15 inches in row (double dense), 15 inches of free soil space. Distance between seeds was 5cm in his work. Dense-empty. I use this way for planting potatoes sometimes. I make double density rows of potatoes and leave more wide space between rows. It works. Yeilds 1.5 times higher.

    The next part of the book is about 2-inch plowing and harm of the deep plowing. It is an excellent understading of what is going in the soil which pass ahead its time for the century at least.

  • pennymca
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bluetranes,

    No apologies needed! If your weather in GA has been as nice as ours has been in AL then it is no wonder there has been a delay....you were having too much fun outside!

    Thanks so much for the Bug Juice link, too! I've already started concocting stuff from the BIM link in my kitchen. I've done the lactobaccillus thing by draining some homemade yogurt to get the whey and have mixed it with molasses.

    After reading about the growth bionutrients from the seaweed/water lettuce/axillary buds of cukes and watermelon I began thinking about my eleagnus shrubs and their rapid growth. I had noticed the little fruits hanging from them earlier so i threw some in the food processor and then mixed that with molasses to ferment. We'll see....

    Can you imagine your Bug Juice hopped up with a fermented kudzu mix thrown in?

    Valerie,

    Thank you for your quick synopsis of the Ovinsky book. You are right. Nothing much is more peaceful than soil.

    And for you, dear readers, who are not are not familiar with the southeastern phenom, kudzu, I've posted a link for your reading pleasure. Only Agent Orange could get rid of this stuff.

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am afraid that I frightened away funny Blutranes by the example of planting trees.
    In reality its not too awful compared with what gardeners do with trees from this
    "Before pruning"
    to this
    "After pruning"
    to have this
    "Apples"
    Horticulture is essentially a "torture". So, for those who too sensitive better not occupy/busy themselves with the orcharding. BTW, lawn mowing is also a "torture" of the grass. Take it easy, it (grass) will not say you about that.

  • blutranes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh no you didn't scare me, I have been thinking about what you said. Ovsinsky has a plan I am really going to give a go this year. I still have a few more questions about humus and how it is applied to the soil. So just hold up a minute and let me finish reading if you have a minute to spare LoL...

    Blutranes

  • valerie_ru
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago
  • pennymca
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ahhhh, Valerie....what a way to start the morning!

    One of my favorites!

  • dchall_san_antonio
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would like to see a new thread about the Ovinski book. It needs Valerie's touch and our questions to get the translation just right. I don't want to torture my grass.

    What Ovinski says about humus being the most important thing in the first inch or so of the surface is fascinating. I am not certain he was exactly correct in saying that humus absorbs ammonia gas but what if it does!!! That would be incredible. I have to stop myself in this charcoal thread, but I find that book fascinating.

    And for pennymca, the reason kudzu is a problem for us due to the shortage of goats. Kudzu is absolutely no problem for them. Yum!

  • paulns
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like to torture my grass :)
    Valerie, I also like that double-row double-space idea. I'll try it this summer with cereal and potatoes. It sounds easier to cultivate potatoes grown like that. So one hilling for each two rows, with space to walk between..

  • jimisnowhere
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anyone tried using saw dust to make bio-char? i have a near endless supply of saw dust and broken pallets.

  • jim_w_ny
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some time ago there was a thread on Terra Preta (Portugese for dark earth). It is what is thought to be the component of the very fertile soil found in the Upper Amazon basin. It is believed to have been made centuries ago by the people living there. It still is very fertile.

    Now it is not just charcoal but different and its' method of production unknown but believed to have made by burning the left overs from crops the previous season. What happened after the burn is unknown but most likely combustion was halted in some way which changed its' composition.

    A number of institutions are been researching it. Some individuals have experimented with methods to make it. But charcoal it ain't. That is buying commercial charcoal won't reproduce that stuff used to make terra preta. I don't remember what distinguishes it from charcoal but I need to look up that thread and find out.

    And maybe try one of the methods used by posters to make it.