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Determine the damage to soil?

Posted by Papa-LF none (My Page) on
Sun, Jan 27, 13 at 14:31

After watching my raised beds fail again this year, I am determined to find the cause. After reading an article in Mother Earth regarding persistent chemicals in soil it got me thinking about the mulch I use during summer around my tomatoes, namely grass clippings. The first year we raised our beds we had awesome results. Used drip to irrigate and was weed free. Second year was just as nice. Starting the third - then 4th - then 5th years our garden was a disaster. Amended soil - tilled it well - did all the right things, so sad. I got thinking about the grass clippings - on my front lawn we use Turflon Ester to control Bermuda grass. I never use the clippings just after an application, but wait several weeks, then use some clippings. Worried about the clippings I looked over the MSDS for Turflon Ester http://www.cdms.net/ldat/mp0BC010.pdf which tells me the biodegradion under aerobatic static laboratory conditions is high - but do I read this correct and should I be concerned - I am thinking yes, I should be concerned.

So is this my failure point - or should I look elsewhere. Knowing this - can I feel safe composting these clippings - or should they not find their way to my garden, period. Input is appreciated. Been gardening for years - this one has me stumped.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

A description and/or images of your failures could help us help determine a potential underlying cause for that "failure."

Without that sort of help from you, we're shooting blind.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Get a soil test. If you have a limiting nutrient, that could be an issue. If you have soil pH issues for your given crop, that could be a major issue.

Fwiw, Triclopyr (Turflon) generally breaks down in 30-90 days depending on the time of year and exposure to weathering. It is systemic, so it will be found in the litter of harvested/sourced plant material. If you apply a high amount of litter that you apply Triclopyr to then you might want to wait 1-2 months before applying it to your garden even if composted (or 2-3 months in cooler seasons).


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

  • Posted by ericwi Dane County WI (My Page) on
    Sun, Jan 27, 13 at 15:53

Turflon ester is an herbicide. Sure, you can pay someone to analyze your grass clippings, but in your situation, I would be composting the grass clippings for 24 months, and only then would I consider the material fit to be used on garden plants. We don't use any herbicide on our lawn, I dig out the dandelion roots by hand. We have a dog, and we don't want the dog to wander the yard and pick up herbicide on her paws.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Follow-up. Soil tests revealed good levels for our area - we amended annually after soil ph was verified, and was a early diagnostic tool. Earthworm activity normal. This is the only herbicide used in our yard - and only in the small front yard, not near the garden area in back, we have no animals,(unless you consider a son-in-law an animal). What appeard on the tomatoes - poor growth -curled leaves, fruit was scares last year, what fruit that did set was under developed by 50 to 75%.
Thanks.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Unless it's disease pressure in your soil (usually splashed from infected soil on your plants) it may very well be a residual herbicide effect.

Triclopyr is a rather powerful herbicide even if it's effective breakdown is decently quick-ish considering it's strength.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

  • Posted by glib 5.5 (My Page) on
    Sun, Jan 27, 13 at 20:42

Surely last year's herbicide is gone. Can you mix your clippings with browns, pile them in a corner of your property, and garden one year with something safe, just some nitrogen fertilizer like urea? applications of OM in years past have probably given you a good base of all other nutrients. Use wood chips or cardboard if you have to mulch.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

I use a lot of grass clippings (from home and friends) in my gardening activities but only after composting. Also, because I worry about both the immediate and long term effects of herbicides, I use no clippings that have been treated in any way. With the exception of my wife, daughters, grandsons, friends and church, gardening gives me the most pleasure and joy in life. I robustly guard the well-being of my 40 year garden.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Everything I see about Turflon (Triclopy) tells me it is a broad leaf "weed" poison, not a turf grass. None of the labels I have seen list Bermuda grass as one of the targets.
Some studies indicate that Triclopy is one of the more persistant herbicides even with a half life of 90 days and enough has been found by some researchers to render some composts unusable in gardens.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

I'm wondering if you may have a buildup of diseases in your soil.

Do you compost your tomato plants?

What else do you grow? Do you have problems with other plants? Do you compost those?

How is the sunlight? Are trees growing up around the garden and shading it?


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Tomatoes are one of the more sensitive vegetables to herbicides. Leave the grass on the lawn.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

I appreciate the feedback. Its helpful. The good news here is the damaged soil can be removed and replaced, and we have started that process.

Lesson learned .. care for the soil, and it will give back with bountyful harvest - kind of like some very dear scriptures I know. I like what Wayne5 said, "Leave the grass on the lawn".

Thanks for the feedback - Semper Fi !


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

OP wrote: "The good news here is the damaged soil can be removed and replaced, and we have started that process. "

If it's damaged by herbicides, then it's hazardous waste and must be disposed of appropriately.

Frankly, without knowing the underlying cause of the "failure," you're wasting time,money & effort. Curled leaves on tomatoes can be due to cultural problems, insect attacks and/or persistent broadleaf herbicides.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Triclopy "infected" soil isn't hazardous waste, especially if contamination is via litter amendment.

It's a chemical that totally breaks down, though one chemical it breaks down into is thought to maybe promote male infertility.

That said, the amount of contaminate of that "bad" chemical it breaks down into would be very tiny (and mostly harmless) coming from a breakdown of plant litter...and besides, that chemical itself is broken down to inert substances in a year or so.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Does anyone really know what OP's soil is affected with? If anything?

Without images & a detailed cultural history, no one knows much about OP's garden failure. We can guess until we turn purple, but we still won't know for certain.

It's unwise to institute any sort of treatment without first obtaining a firm diagnosis.

Other herbicides can contaminate soil & compost for a long time, among them clopyralid. See this for info:
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/soilmgmt/clopyralid.htm

If in doubt about herbicide affected grass clippings, do as ken suggested: Leave them lie where they fall. (It's called grass-cycling.)

Here is a link that might be useful: clopyralid herbicide contaminated soil


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

I wholeheartedly agree with jean here. There is no firm cause yet determined, and it could be multiple causes. I would not start removing soil at this point. Even if you do decide to go that route, remove half this year and see how the two halves compare next year. Even then you won't know, as the new soil will have different texture, nutrients, organic matter etc. than the old stuff.

Since this stuff breaks down after a few months, it seems like overkill to me.

And it is most certainly not hazardous waste. The concentration in soil is extremely small. Unless a large amount of the chemical was actually spilled on the soil, it is nowhere close to being hazardous as far as waste disposal.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

last follow-up. This and other discussions have led me to belive the direction I am taking is a positive direction. The good news is with the raised beds being small its estimated I will be removing about 10 wheelborrow loads,to an area of my property that will be covered by 4 inches of concrete this coming fall. That will be replaced by topsoil 30 yards away currently in a pile waiting to be moved anyway. The very last piece in our back yard renovation - now 3 years in the process. Its a win win situation. When I retire in 5 years, it will all be just a memory. My grandsons wanted some more muscles this summer anyway.
Blessings to all.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Sounds like you have a place to put it and something to replace it with, so it's not so bad. Wishing you luck with the garden next season!


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Triclopyr is indeed in the pyridine carboxylic acid class of herbicides that are slower to break down and are recognized to cause issues when compost is made from either the clippings or the manure from animals that have eaten forage treated with it.

The link below includes a partial list of common products that are known to cause this type of problem. Turflon is not specifically listed, but another triclopyr based herbicide is.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pyridine carboxylic acids


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

Well, you should cross your fingers that you don't import one or more new problems when you haul in the new soil.


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RE: Determine the damage to soil?

The OP says the new soil will come from a spare pile of topsoil in the yard, which has not been treated with any herbicides, so that should not be a problem.


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