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Peat moss- good or bad?

novascapes
12 years ago

There has been a discussion recently about the use of Mycelium added to the root system of plants. This inspired me to to do a lot more research on the soil micro system and what is taking place below the surface. I have a calcareous clay soil and have read that adding peat moss would help break up the clay and help with the pH. Well I have done this, maybe over done it. I have access to more peat moss than I could ever use in my life for the 3 acre lawn and gardens at home, so I even spread it on my pastures at the farm.

I have just read something that has alarmed me, see link below. Peat moss is anti microbial.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peat Moss Con

Comments (101)

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    Kimm say, "But if you look at all of the information avalable, and especially that provided by people with no financial interest in the product, you might get a different perspective."

    kimm, I don't buy that for 2 moments. Why? Because about the only people with no financial interest in the product who provide information do seem to have an eco bias already and that makes a difference.

    Where is the truly unbiased (financial and eco wise] information?....you are not providing it for sure.

  • jolj
    12 years ago

    wayne 5, were you born smart or is it something you got over time?
    You seem to have a handle on many of the post on Gardenweb.
    Including mine.
    Thanks for your input.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    jolj,

    Well, I'm not smart. I do hope to have picked up a bit of wisdom in my older age.

    I was thinking about what I had last posted on here while I was getting the remains of a stump out. I may have been a bit sharp with kimm...he is a real bulldog for what he believes. What I want to say here is: When it comes to financisl affairs, especially, the positives get told, but the negatives are not told. The same is likely true on peat moss sites. There are not many articles titled: Watching Paint Dry. So articles on peat likewise probably would not appeal to writers unless they had a bit of an agenda.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    The important thing with any advice is to know the source, otherwise you can't judge the validity. There are lots of agendas here, when they're clear at the outset, it's easier to adjust to the bias accordingly. I'm prone to arguing my beliefs, but I make an effort not to be overly contentious with those of a different opinion. Sometimes I get it right, often I bite my virtual "tongue," and on occasion I fail in my restraint, but I am grateful for the disagreement if for no other reason than it helps me to clarify my own argument. It's incredible what you can find on the internet, finding what will legitimately support an argument (what's truly credible) is a little harder. There are some participants here with whom it is a pleasure to disagree, because they are able to have a civil debate.

  • Lloyd
    12 years ago

    Of course I had to google Watching Paint Dry...came up with "About 2,860,000 results (0.14 seconds)"...I'm not going to read them all!!

    ;-)

    Lloyd

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    Lloyd, There are a lot of Watching Paint Dry sites...it's a real art I guess.....surprised me.

    I'll try again....The Pure Joy of Ditch Digging At The South Pole

  • Lloyd
    12 years ago

    Got me on that one. :-)

    Lloyd

    P.S. See, we can occasionally be nice to each other.

  • the_virginian
    12 years ago

    Again, in my experience and many others whom I share gardening tips with in my area do not use or recommend peat moss as a soil amendment for red clay. The negatives outweigh the positives. I have no environmental, financial or personal agenda concerning peat moss. Except in sandy soils it is not a good choice and there are far superior alternatives that yield better results.

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    I have no vested interest in anything except to leave this world in as good or maybe better condition then it was when I came here. If there is no good reason to destroy something then I will oppose doing that. We are not here to use up, mine, the resources available but instead we are here to try to make this a better place for our grandchildren to live.
    If that means for some that I am an ignorant rube, they are privileged to think that.

  • Laurel Zito
    12 years ago

    As a sandy soil gardener, (my house is built what was once a sand dune), I can say with confidence that a woody based compost is better for sandy soil then peat moss. As far as I can see peat moss is only useful to store bulbs or a potting mix for things like African violets, but I don't grow them. I am storing bulbs without peat moss and so far no problems. But, these thing would be small scale, not like a gardener using a huge amount of peat moss for the whole garden. Times evolve and people can stop using peat moss.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    I can see where some might get to thinking that we live in a small world....and I am fairly conservative.

    Still, just about all the people I know use of the earth's resources....like driving vehicules, using electricity, water, plastics, steel, the internet, eating foods, and many other activities that use materials that are mined, processed, shipped, and sold.

    I believe in using these things wisely. I don't see going to extremes though. In the parable that Jesus told about the talents. The persons who multiplied their stewardship wisely were praised, but the one who hid away his was condemned.

  • the_virginian
    12 years ago

    Tropical thought: I concur that wood or leaf based OM is better than peat moss for sandy soils. For one thing, the experience I have had in Florida showed that the live oak based leaf mould mixed in more evenly and even made a good mulch to put around the plantings. I am sure composted saw dust or wood shavings would have had similar results. The reason I am bias towards leaves is they are so readily available and are the major component of what happens naturally in the soil in the woods. Wood too breaks down well in a mulch or composted soil amendment product that is also similar to what happens in the forest.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    I side with the virginian here, in that a local product that offers similar advantages is preferable to anything that requires long-distance transportation. Peats' primary advantage is as a soil conditioner, the fact that it breaks down so slowly means it can be an effective long-term treatment, but it adds little else. Shredded leaves will have the same effect in the short term of lightening the soil, but they will continue to break down releasing nutrients into the soil and requiring replenishing on a regular basis. I think the addition of nutrients is worth the added labor of regular applications, and the accessibility is unparalleled - people will do most of the labor for you, and give you the bags.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    I have spoken up for peat moss on this thread.

    billme has said it so clearly. Peat moss is a long lasting soil conditioner. Most gardeners here just do not have the access to it cheaply like I do and so I would not recommend it except for small areas. Peat moss does not feed the soil much and I do not expect that of it. I do believe in adding very goodly amounts of leaf compost, mulched leaves, and other things like composts, perhaps some good well rotted manure, AND folks, listen up...I bought 40 pounds of Plant Tone fertilizer today...love it or weep...it is my garden.

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    People around here, and in many other places throughout the world, throw away more pounds of a very valuable resource, those tree leaves that fall, that are better for your soil and are renewable, you get them every year, than buy peat moss. People could save a lot of money by not buying peat moss and recycling those tree leaves. For people that live where there are deciduous trees there probably is not good reason to buy peat moss.

  • Lloyd
    12 years ago

    I think I can confidently say no one here disagrees with any of that. The problem is, is that in reality, it doesn't work that way.

    I spend countless hours trying to get people to use compost on their lawns instead of synthetics. I give some compost away to people/gardening groups to use in their gardens/floral displays. I bring people out to show them how to convert leaves/grass/garden plants into compost. Yet every year I get another 400-500 tonnes of yard trimmings from a small town.

    Not everyone is going to compost or even use compost and I know beating them over the head with guilt over peat (especially if some of the information is bogus) is not going to win them over. What does work is demonstration. Getting a neighbour to try it with great results.

    One step at a time.

    Lloyd

  • Laurel Zito
    12 years ago

    I totally agree when they try to say everything bad about something and some of it not true, the whole argument gets ignored.

  • gargwarb
    12 years ago

    I have no vested interest in anything except to leave this world in as good or maybe better condition then it was when I came here. If there is no good reason to destroy something then I will oppose doing that. We are not here to use up, mine, the resources available but instead we are here to try to make this a better place for our grandchildren to live.
    If that means for some that I am an ignorant rube, they are privileged to think that.

    Wow Kimm, I've never seen you just lay it out like that. I find your motives admirable and I respect your conviction.

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    I find it quite amusing that on a discussion forum, where people should feel free to present opposing opinions, that some will resort to calling those they disagree with "ignorant" or that they use bad information, apparently because the arguments they use are unsustainable.
    Sometimes it appears from some of the replies that some of use that try to be "devils advocates" cause some to become apopolectic.

  • Laurel Zito
    12 years ago

    If someone is lazy, they may just read a piece of information and stick in their mind and believe it for years, without searching for counter views. I find it best to consider the opposing views and if you can dismiss those, then your belief is more likely to be correct.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    I find that environmental issues can become a bit like religion. Goodness, we tend to promote only what promotes our viewpoint, AND ignore anything negative to that viewpoint.

    Like I tried to point out somewhere above.....An advertisement will only highlight the reasons why you "should" buy the product. Never will they detail the contrary things. Usually on many environmental issues, only the negatives are listed and NEVER the positives...and there are many oftentimes.

    So where does it leave us? I think that if we are more honest, we have to be able to deal with the downsides. I know that isn't how things are usually done. Politics is about the perfect illustration of presenting only what will appeal to the biases and preconceived buttons of shallow thinking human beings.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    Guilty, but unrepentant.

  • Lloyd
    12 years ago

    I find that some environmental issues can become a bit like religion a cult.

    I'm a firm believer in the possibility of grey areas.

    :-)

    Lloyd

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    On this site the health of the soil, and to some extent, the health of the planet are legit issues.

    A good parallel is the health of our bodies. Many of the same laws and principles apply. Do I trust Big Pharma and the system of health care? Well, the system does help some and does tend to keep people limping along for a while. Yet when it comes to vibrant health building from the INSIDE out rather than treating symptoms, very much is lacking....they just are not much geared to that and besides wellness does not pay so well as medical interventions.

    When it comes to my personal health, I want to fortify it rather than treat it later. I think that good gardeners want to do the same and are better able to do that as they learn.

    Yes, LLoyd, there are many gray shades and colours [for you Lloyd]

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    The grey matter is often the most interesting part...

  • Jon_dear
    12 years ago

    My thought is this- using local products is the best solution. Some can get coir. For me in Maine, that means shipping it at least 1500 miles. Is that better than harvesting some peat within one or two hundred miles from my home? Rice hulls would be another options. We don't grow much rice here in Maine. Now leaves are here, easy to access. Old tree bark from local saw mills is easy to get by the pickup full. It will all regenerate eventually- some fast, some slow. I'm not really against using it. I do use a few 3.8 cu ft bales a year in my homemade seed starting mix. I also use perlite... but I hardly ever see anybody saying that it isn't a renewable product. I guess what I'm thinking is that it has it's uses, but I'm too cheap to purchase enough to make that much of a difference in my whole garden.

  • kevinitis
    12 years ago

    Aside from the environmental concerns, I would say that there are situations where pete moss might be good. For example my western soils are loamy fine sand that has a natural ph of 7.8 to 7.9, and is somewhat excessivly well drained to excessivly well drained. And has low water holding capacity. So adding pete for my garden would increase water capacity and the acidity of the pete serves to lower the ph albeit slightly. I have two garden plots, one a raised bed the other a row crop system. I added pete and compost from the green waste facility to my raised bed and had really great results, ie more plant vigor. Whereas in my row crop area, I only added the compost. My plants in the row crop, although health, were not as productive or vigourus as my raised bed. For me it was mostly financial as to why I did not add pete to my row crop area. But there is good reason why one might add pete in certain situations.

  • emme-dc
    12 years ago

    I am starting a garden not quite from scratch, but from pretty poor condition. My worst disadvantage, though, I don't know the first thing about how to make good garden soil. Well, I do know that my soil is clay-heavy, not sandy. Not well drained. I also know it's pretty alkaline. I got some holly-tone. I have half a bag of peat out back, should I mix it in with some of the top soil and bumper crop I just bought when I go to fill the beds? To listen to all you anti-peat folks, I'm thinking no, just save it for potting. For sure I'm not going to buy another bag, so I'd better hang on to it for when I do need it. Or should I just put it out there and make room for a bag of potting mix?

  • gonebananas_gw
    12 years ago

    The biggest threat, hands down, to the vast northern peatlands is climate warming.

    But many would prefer to ignore that and instead quibble about the smaller matters of harvesting or mining where posturing is easier. Some of course do have knowledgeable opposition to aspects or areas of peat mining (peat for fuel was the bigger threat, and may again be).

    I use mainly ground pine bark in the large amount of potting soil I make, and it is a totally renewable and otherwise waste product of forestry. I do use a bit of Sphagnum peat (up to 1/3 for especially valuable plants) in order to have better rooting media filling the intersticies between the bark particles. I would never use mined peat as a general garden amendment, but then again I have other ready options (ground bark, leaves, and leaf compost, zoo manure compost) and I do not criticise those who do not have these easy options.

    I use some vermiculite and perlite too. I know the raw materials are mined (much vermiculite near me) but they are very plentiful or common and the materials persist in my soil and need no replenishment. Far more of raw mineral materials flow past me in the river because this state has pitiful erosion control regulations or enforcement. Any thought-out attack of loss of soil or mineral resources would start there, not with the relatively trivial extractions of vermiculite or rock for perlite production (where only anout 1/7th goes to horticulture anyway).

  • rdak
    12 years ago

    Peat moss is ok and it will definitely break down over time.

    But regular stuff like leaves, twigs/chips, grass clipping, etc., are better IMHO.

    Where I live, there are so many fallen leaves in the autumn that I am able to mulch massive amounts into the yard and pile them up in the raised beds, etc.

    Over the years these ordinary amendments have worked wonders in my clay soil.

    But peat moss will certainly add organic matter to your soil.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    I have access to both and love them both...so it isn't an either or for me.

  • curt_grow
    12 years ago

    I use good old Minnesota leaves for my compost. The only tropical trash my pile see's is from fruit scraps. I will not pay anyone for inporting their trash. However I do use a small amount of moss in my container mix. I think my northern nieghbors know what they are doing

    Curt

  • toxcrusadr
    12 years ago

    emme-dc, I'd just use that peat and get some potting mix later if and when you need it. It doesn't do any good sitting around in a bag, that's for sure.

    And think about starting a new thread about your soil. More people will see it. In here it's just us wackos arguing like aunts in the kitchen during a party. :-]

  • Lloyd
    12 years ago

    Anybody interested?

    Lloyd

    Here is a link that might be useful: Peat Moss Business For Sale

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    Lloyd, No wonder it is hard to move all that leaf compost. You have delicious peat moss to compete with.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    Lloyd, I followed the "directions" link and it was pinned on Seven Oaks Hospital! I did see your airport to the west on the satellite view on that link.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    Lloyd, if you put this address in the URL slot, you will get my peat moss bog source ...on satellite view....[ 40.28289 -85.494372 ] Use the satellite map from your sales site.
    You can go to the highest 'zoom in' level and double left click on State Road 28 just to the south of the bog and school and you get a street level interactive view of my area.

  • Lloyd
    12 years ago

    The address linked to that ad is for a Realtor so it does not go to the actual business location. I don't know which company it is but this ad has appeared previously so I'm guessing there aren't a lot of interested people. The province is finally getting serious about not granting permits for new mining activity and I imagine no one wants to put out a lot of money for a mere 20 year supply.

    Sometime before I moved back to the farm in '94, Dad got a couple of truckloads of peat from a neighbour in the bog who was building a barn. I don't think a lot of people understand local situations. There can be gray/grey areas.

    Lloyd

    P.S. I'll put my compost up against peat any day of the week. :-)

  • Laurel Zito
    12 years ago

    I could see the link, but it took me to downtown Winnipeg. The location must be somewhere else if it is a peat bog for sale.

  • the_virginian
    12 years ago

    I would use the peat for a potting mix and use something else in the garden like compost or leaf mould.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    12 years ago

    I would use the peat moss in the garden before using bio-solids.. I really love what it does in my soil.

    Maybe we can keep the discussion going!

  • Oil_Robb
    11 years ago

    People This shouldnt be an either/or situtation, from what im getting in this thread is people that are in the anti peat moss camp are making thier points as if peat moss is the only thing put into thier beds. I found tilling 20 large peat bales (new 60' x60' garden) along with 15 hay bales and a ton of shredded leaves (watered in)in the fall and let sit for 5 months untill april and then tilled in 4" of mature compost from the local mucipality turned my cemnt hard clay garden into a loose highly fertile garden in months instead of years.I will keep tilling horse maure leaves and grass clippings to feed my soil every fall,thats just smart, but what tilling in the peat moss did is let me have an almost instant garden as I didnt have to wait years by top dressing and waiting for mother nature to do her thing. Now if its for flower bed and you cant till thats another story top dress with compost and shredded leaves and lightly sratch it into the top 2" of soil. My point beeing this is not an either/or situation. the beauty of peat is it lasts for years and doesnt break down anywhere as fast as the nutrisional amendmants that we also add to our gardens.

  • jolj
    8 years ago

    I ask my son to pick up some potting soil to pot up a few blueberry plants.

    I had planted 75 plant & want to pot a few, maybe to sale.

    My son got peatmoss, I made a 1/3 topsoil, 1/3 compost,1/3 peat moss.

    I do not know why the plants in pots are doing as well & in some cases better than the ones in the ground.

    The only difference is the plants in pot are, they are not mulched,in pot above ground & have peat in the mix.

    I do not think peat is the main reason, but it does hold some water over sandy loam topsoil.



  • toxcrusadr
    8 years ago

    Conventional wisdom says not to use ANY soil in potting mixes. It is just too heavy and fine-grained. If your plants are doing well, more power to you. Just watch out for compaction and stress, especially when it gets hot.

  • kimmq
    8 years ago

    jolj, what is the pH of the soil the blueberries are growing in?

    How well does that soil retain moisture?

    Are those blueberries sitting in water or are the roots above the bog?

    kimmq is kimmsr

  • jolj
    8 years ago

    1)pH should be 5.5-6.0 because of soil, but not tested.

    2)Sandy loam stays wet 3 days, but with no water for 8 hot days the pot plant are fine.

    3)The 75 BB plants in the ground are in poor sandy loam with compost add, those in pots are in shade in the same field, with the same soil,compost + peat in black plastic pots.

    Never had a problem with mixing sandy loam with amendments before,but the soil & subsoil are very sandy.

  • toxcrusadr
    8 years ago

    I'm going to guess the ground did not get quite as much compost amendment compared to the potting mix.

    As an aside, I've had pretty good luck planting small bare-root trees and shrubs in pots for a season instead of the ground. You can control the sun/shade, and they get some roots under them. I also have better luck planting (in my clay soil) in the fall, so this works out perfectly.

  • kimmq
    8 years ago

    I know what the soil pH for Blueberries should be, 4.5 to 5.5, but asked what the soil pH of the soil you are trying to grow Blueberries in is.

    Blueberries are bog plants and grow best in soils well amended with organic material that is evenly moist but well drained in full sun.
    How much organic matter is in the soil these bushes are trying to grow in?
    It should be around 10 to 15 percent organic matter, which is different than organic material.

    http://www.extension.umn.edu/garden/yard-garden/fruit/blueberries-for-home-landscapes/

    kimmq is kimmsr


  • jolj
    8 years ago

    Here in S.C. I have been many Blue Berry orchards, none are overly rich, none are blogs.

    That is why PHD's & internet writing does not impress me.

    The soil is poor, dry soil in hot Summers.

    I have ten blueberry plant that are 10 years old, have no compost in 5 years, only water is rainfall. They bear every year.

    My mother has a bb plant I planted 30 something years ago, no one cares for it, they only pick the ripe fruit.

    This is what I like most about Rabbiteye bb plants.

    They can grew wild with little or no help from man, 1 year after planting here in S.C.

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