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| not sure if anyone tried this and works... i dig a hole and put some peat moss and maybe even pour some vinegar in the hole, would that make the soil a bit acidic eventually?
i'm trying this method first without using chemical or sulfur based stuff. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Pouring vinegar onto the soil will lower pH instantly, within seconds. However, soil microbes exist that regard vinegar as food, so it will likely be consumed in a month or so. It turns out that soil microbes are involved in lowering pH with sulfur, although in a different way. When sulfur is added, nothing happens to soil pH immediately. Sulfur is not an acid. However, there are certain soil microbes that use sulfur as a food source, and these bacteria will multiply when sulfur is present. When the bacteria expire, the end result is sulfuric acid, and this does lower soil pH. It might take a year for all the sulfur to be consumed, but the pH does drop. It can remain at the new, lower level, for several years. |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Feb 18, 11 at 20:31
| Skip the vinegar - it works too quickly, changes the pH too radically and breaks down too rapidly so the effect is lost in a matter of a few days to weeks. And because it is extremely acidic (pH of 2.4-3.4) it kills off beneficial soil organisms. Not much will tolerate that kind of pH. Adding peat moss will help but so can various other soil amendments - compost and manures, cottonseed meal (a natural acidifier), aluminum sufate, ammonium sulfate, iron sulfate or just plain agricultural sulfur. Nothing wrong with that, either - it is an approved organic amendment. None of these are especially fast acting so you need to plan ahead to alter soil pH well before planting.....about 6 months. And none will be a permanent fix. Depending on the buffering capacity of the soil, it will eventually revert back to its normal pH unless amendments are done routinely. What is your pH now and what are you attempting to change it to? |
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| If you go down the road of organic gardening(and i assume you do since you're here in this forum), at certain point of this road you will inevitably become compulsive composter, while using your own compost continually on your soil, and that act is what gives you a more or less permanent fix to all your alkaline soil problem 'cause compost raise soil ph, and i dont think you could give up this composting habit easily. |
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| If Oak leaves (pH of 3.8) and pine needles (pH of 3.7) or maple leaves (pH of 3.2) do not significantly affect the soils pH why would Peat Moss (pH of 4.6)? Understanding why a soils pH is what it is can help in changing it and a soils pH is where it is due to Hydrogen ions. Many and the pH will be acidic, below 7.0, too few and the soil will be alkaline, above 7.0. To change it you need to add something that will decrease the H ions (lime) or increase the H ions (sulfur, ammonium sulfate). Getting sufficent amounts of organic matter into the soil will buffer the soil so the pH is of less concern. I once added 3.8 cubic feet of Peat Moss to a 4 x 4 planting bed in an effort to lower the soil pH (5.7) for blueberries and after tilling the PM in and waiting a year a new soil test told me the soil pH of that bed was now 7.2, so I would doubt that Peat Moss does much of anything to lower a soils pH which I realize is contrary to what has been assumed for many years. |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sat, Feb 19, 11 at 9:52
| Peat moss - if one chooses to use it - is well known and thoroughly documented to be an effective product to lower soil pH. The reason it is able to do so while other acidic materials do not has to do with its nearly completely decomposd state. Decomposition, such as what will occur if the materials are incorporated into the soil, will effectively neutralize the acidic effects of things like oak leaves or conifer needles so their ability to alter soil pH is very limited.....virtually nonexistant. Peat moss OTOH retains its acidic properties when incoporated into the soil because it is pretty much already fully decomposed. The fact that it has virtually no nutrient value is also indicative of this. According to a study done at the Ohio State University Agricultural Research and Development Station, the application of 2" or more of peat moss incorporated into the top 6" of the soil will lower pH by at least one unit within a single growing season. The effect can last as long as two years but soil pH will eventually increase unless other acidifying measures are followed. |
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| Great thread everyone, I have a problem with my blueberries. They are not growing like (I think) they should. They are totally organic, so it is that the pH is to low or to high. I will have a soil test done this Spring, but what to do after the test is another thing. gardengal48, think you for defending your comment. I will search OSUA, for the study. And the different amendments to lower the pH. It should be easier here in South Carolina, then some Northern states, which have a natural high pH. That in it self is why my problem maybe that the pH is to low & locking up the nutrient, slowing the growth. I will start a thread on my finding when the test is done. |
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| "If Oak leaves (pH of 3.8) and pine needles (pH of 3.7) or maple leaves (pH of 3.2) do not significantly affect the soils pH why would Peat Moss (pH of 4.6)? " Because the oak leaves, maple leaves and pine needles are going to decompose and the peat moss has already decomposed, so it's far more stable. |
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| So, gardengal, why did the pH of the soil in that plot go from 5.7 to 7.2, from an acid reaction to an alkaline reaction after adding Peat Moss to that bed? The amount would have been more than that OSU study used. If that OSU study is on line it has not appeared in my research. |
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| Is this the OSU study you're looking for kimm? "...the pH in peat-moss amended plots was decreased by one full unit, and this effect lasted at least for the entire growing season." also referenced to here. " According to one source,[2] an application of 2 inches of sphagnum peat moss incorporated into the top 6 inches of soil will lower the soil pH by one unit or more within a growing season. The positive effects of sphagnum peat can last two or more years, but unless other measures are used the pH of the soil will eventually increase." Lloyd |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sun, Feb 20, 11 at 10:16
| kimmsr, I have no idea why you got the results you did as I have no way of knowing what - exactly - you added to your soil other than peat moss. And I'd have to question why, if your soil was already at a pH of 5.7, you bothered to add peat moss at all. But your particular experience is contrary to all other documented sources that have pretty firmly established peat moss's ability to lower soil pH. Personally, I tend not to put a lot of weight on anecdotal reporting. |
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| Hi Lloyd, good to here from you. I checked out the link,thanks. |
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| Nothing but peat moss was added at that time and was added to try to lower the soils pH to 4.something which is strongly recommended because chlorosis can occur in blueberries in soils with a pH as high as 5.5. Whether that is what I am supposed to be looking for or not I have no idea, but what I read there is that those people added peat moss and sulfur and sulfur is something one does add to soil to lower the soils pH. And every study I have seen about Peat Moss lowering a spoils pH also had sulfur, or ammonium nitrate, added to the soil, not just Peat Moss. |
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- Posted by xtal z8b Temple. TX (crystal.fisher@att.net) on Mon, Feb 21, 11 at 8:51
| Got a question for you. What is your water? If your water is alkaline, I'm not sure that trying to adjust your soil toward acid will help very much. You might want to call your local Ag agent in your county to see what difference it would the water would make. Just a thought. |
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| Then I guess I was reading "Table 1. Soil pH Values Over a Two-Year Period in Treatments Without Sulfur" incorrectly, my bad. ;-) Lloyd |
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- Posted by charleslou23 (My Page) on Tue, Feb 22, 11 at 13:44
| wonder if i should stick with planting BB in pots instead of in ground since lowering soil's PH permanently and quickly seem pretty difficult...? i havent buy a ph tester yet but i'd guess my soil is around 7ish. |
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| charleslou, the attempt to change a soil's pH has merit....if one has a reason to do it. You wish to use no chemicals.....and then say you wish to dump vinegar into a hole. I'd like to suggest that that vinegar you think is non-chemical is quite the contrary. Fooling around with quick solving material might just kick you in the apse..... |
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| I tested my clay soil in a couple of small bare spots with an old "Environmental Concepts" pH analyzer. It's an inexpensive probe which apparently measures a small current or voltage on a pH scale. I moistened the soil with tap water and took a reading (about pH 7). With the analyzer still in ground, I watered again with 2 Tbs white vinegar per gallon. The change in reading was immediate with pH falling to the low limit of the acid side of the scale. Then slowly the reading swung back towards neutral, stopping at 6.5. Then I watered some plants this way (which are in poor shape anyway) to see if they would stand up to it. |
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- Posted by blazeaglory 10 SZ22 OC Ca (My Page) on Thu, Jun 14, 12 at 0:43
| This works fine and is elemental sulfur and gypsum. I use it for my Citrus. My soil was Ph 7.7 when I first added it about 2 months ago, now my soil is a little above 7. I figure at this rate my soil should be where I need it by the end of the year. I might have to add more though. I also added and organic blend of food and bacteria so I think that is helping also. They do have directions for blueberries. http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/pdf/products/Esp_Soil_acidif.pdf |
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